Does Statesman deserve a potential killing off? I don't agree
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 22:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Heh....they do all the advertising and then say I spoiled? Man, I don't have their advertising department...but I'm cool with it. <shakes head with a chuckle>
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Statesman will always personify Paragon City for me, because of this video.
It still gives me chills after all these years.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
It's odd - I'm more aggravated about HOW the devs announced it than the fact that States gets offed.
STRICTLY FOR MYSELF...
If the only thing they had done was posted another picture (a la BAB's glove, States' mask, etc), with the "Daddy, can you fly to heaven?" text, and "one will die"...
AND THAT WAS IT... No post from Zwill, no press release on the main page, nada...
The speculation of course would be rampant (since folks like me recognize it as a 'mis'quote from the FP novel), but it might STILL have MAYBE meant Ms Liberty was going to be the one to die. And I would have been frothing at the mouth to play #5 going, "WHICH IS IT?! WHICH WHICH WHICH?!"
THEN #5 comes out, the players go through the arc, the truth is discovered, and now that we know, the wild speculation of what happens in #6 and #7 is ramped up.
THEN we have that announcement... in 2012, he is gone... who will take up the fight... etc etc etc... because now the playerbase has seen 'the greatest among us' has fallen, oh crap, the world's gonna end, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...
But no.
*sigh*
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Did... did this thread just get trolled by Mod 13?
That's awesome.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
Quote:
Someone in the official topic mentioned that it's possible the latest patch includes the text already and in the game files, and Paragon wanted to get the information out on their own terms, rather than hope a pigg diver didn't leak it. I don't know much about how easy that would be to do, or even if the arc's text is indeed in there, but given that we've already got contact for later arcs showing up, that actually seems like a reasonable explanation.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
It's odd - I'm more aggravated about HOW the devs announced it than the fact that States gets offed.
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Quote:
Here's the thing - I've asked the devs before if mission text, etc, was stashed clientside or serverside. I was told by at least two separate devs plus one of the QA guys that unlike art assets and sound effects and the like, mission text, bios, etc, was all kept serverside, so the only way to see it was to play through the arc.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Someone in the official topic mentioned that it's possible the latest patch includes the text already and in the game files, and Paragon wanted to get the information out on their own terms, rather than hope a pigg diver didn't leak it. I don't know much about how easy that would be to do, or even if the arc's text is indeed in there, but given that we've already got contact for later arcs showing up, that actually seems like a reasonable explanation.
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Quote:
That or the right hand is unaware of the activities the left tentacle has been up to.
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Originally Posted by Quasadu
Did... did this thread just get trolled by Mod 13?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
I'd just like to point out the presumption you're making, that they're telling you the end of the story, in which case it would be a spoiler. However, that isn't necessarily the case, it could be the jumping off point for the next part of the story and the meat of that story is dealing with the aftermath of his death.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
*snip*
I already mentioned in the discussion about the announcement that I felt it broke a cardinal rule in writing, and I hold to that. You can't create any suspense or even hold it if you announce what most people think the story is actually about, true or not. It destroys anticipation for the story because you've already given away the biggest part of it. It's like giving away the key plot points from the last Harry Potter novels or the last five minutes of Inception. If people told you the outcome, however percieved, your interest in the story and its outcome decreases accordingly. I only speak for myself when I say the story will have to do a lot to recapture my interest. *snip* |
That said, it would mean that his death happened off-screen which to some would trivialize his death & thus be entirely unsatisfying.
I'm also going to point out that announcing Statesman's death doesn't necessarily spoiler the over-arcing theme of the SSA. The question "Who will die?" does not limit itself to which one person will die, but could also be interpreted as which of these people in this group will die?
So... it's been announced that Statesman will die, and many people seem to be assuming the answer to "Who will die?" has been answered & are raging about the stupidity of doing so. And yet, there's that other way the question could be interpreted...
I'm not a writer, but it seems like there's still room for surprises & storytelling to me... YMMV
There's a reason we announced this ahead of time. There's a reason we decided that this would be the cadence of the reveals. Perhaps all is not presently clear, and overtime it will be made as such, but there is a reason.
We wanted you to know in advance that States would die.
We wanted you to know that this is coming.
This is part of the delivery of the story which will play itself out in the coming months.
It may just be difficult to see the forest for the trees right now 
.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Is there anyone who didn't see this coming? OK, OK, apparently there seriously are.
For this game there is actually a good reason to kill off Statesman. In DC or Marvel Comics the readers see things as though they were part of the ordinary populace, just with an insider's view. The Big Iconic Heroes (bad idea to make an acronym out of that) are not just there for the normal civilians to look up to; they are also primarily there for us to look up to.
In a game like City of Heroes, however, there's a problem. We are supposed to be the heroes. We are supposed to be the ones everybody looks up to, the "paragons" as it were. That there is an iconic, signature hero permanently up above the players, having attained a status us peons can never reach, flies in the face of what this game is supposed to be about. This is especially true with the addition of Incarnate content, which is supposed to make us, the players, the ultimate heroes in the game. Nothing against Statesman as a character, but he flies right in the face of what this game is supposed to be about.
Now the decision to spoil the supposed surprise may be questionable, but I just figure the developers have read about this study.
AE Arcs: #10482 N00b Rescue Duty, #164100 The Four Treasures of the Tuatha De Dannan
I am going against my own rules right now about moderation.
I've changed the title of this thread back to the original for one reason:
This is no longer a spoiler. I announced this yesterday, it's all over the main page, and it's in the media. As I stated above, we wanted you to know about this.
The sense of irony is not lost on me, and I apologize if there was any sense of duplicitous behavior. None was intended.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
[Post rescinded on account of being made just a little too early. Benefit of the doubt is now fully offered.]
Quote:
Nemesis, please stop posting using Zwillinger's account. We know it's you.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
There's a reason we announced this ahead of time. There's a reason we decided that this would be the cadence of the reveals. Perhaps all is not presently clear, and overtime it will be made as such, but there is a reason.
We wanted you to know in advance that States would die. We wanted you to know that this is coming. This is part of the delivery of the story which will play itself out in the coming months. It may just be difficult to see the forest for the trees right now . |
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
"Trust us".
Huh... yeah.
...
This better be incredibly well written.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
Quote:
Captain! It's a Matter/Anti-Matter breach! I canna stop it! SHE'S GOING TO BLOW! |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We wanted you to know in advance that States would die.
We wanted you to know that this is coming. This is part of the delivery of the story which will play itself out in the coming months. |
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
Indeed!|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
This is no longer a spoiler.
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And I've enjoyed the SSA story so far (if not necessarily the missions) enough to trust that it will proceed with due intrigue.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Moderator 13
Hi all,
I've edited the title of this thread in order to remove potential spoilers. Should further threads discussing this issue be created, please take care when choosing a thread title, and be conscious of the fact that some people would prefer not to have the SSA's spoiled. Best, ~Mod13 |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I am going against my own rules right now about moderation.
I've changed the title of this thread back to the original for one reason: This is no longer a spoiler. I announced this yesterday, it's all over the main page, and it's in the media. As I stated above, we wanted you to know about this. The sense of irony is not lost on me, and I apologize if there was any sense of duplicitous behavior. None was intended. |
Zwillinger Ex Machina FTW!
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
Red Gren, this is a valid point, one that occurred to me at the outset. "Who Will Die?" It could be A, B and C, not just A. The Devs' announcement was couched in singular terms... but if "one" dies, that does not mean that ANOTHER might not die immediately thereafter.|
Originally Posted by Red_Gren
I'm also going to point out that announcing Statesman's death doesn't necessarily spoiler the over-arcing theme of the SSA. The question "Who will die?" does not limit itself to which one person will die, but could also be interpreted as which of these people in this group will die?
So... it's been announced that Statesman will die, and many people seem to be assuming the answer to "Who will die?" has been answered & are raging about the stupidity of doing so. And yet, there's that other way the question could be interpreted... I'm not a writer, but it seems like there's still room for surprises & storytelling to me... YMMV |
And you are correct, the final product might be spectacularly great writing that has everyone admitting that they were sucked in when the Devs answered their own question in the middle of the arc. It was not just a Cheap Marketing Gimmick, it was actually Brilliant Misdirection! It could be Epic and Wonderful.
They could even wheel in a big cake and have Troy Hickman pop out shouting, "Ha ha, it was ME all along, you knuckleheads!" as we gasp and marvel at how "Who Will Die?" has eclipsed "Smoke and Mirrors" as the Greatest CoH Writing Ever...
Given the lore involving the Insane Sentient Possessing Well of Furies, though, I am not holding my breath.
Prove me wrong, Devs, PLEASE prove me wrong!
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Other people (myself included) have pondered the following:
The Loyalty Program is offering two tribute helmets, a Statesman's and a Lord Recluse's.
Now, if the Statesman helmet is being offered to commemorate States, why are the offering a Lord Recluse helmet with it? Is it to have equitable costume parts available for our villainous counterparts? Or is there something else on the agenda in the last two stories of the arc?
If the out-of-game reason for Statesman's death is true (He's a paragon that over shadows the heroes no matter their own morals, courage and powers), then the paragon of the villains might need removed as well.
Story-wise, if Recluse dies as well, it hints that the death may have something to do with the Well of the Furies. Does the Well take back its power? Does it bend States and Recluse to its bidding? The two friends drank from the well togehter ... might it be a karmic balance thing that they lose them together?
American Dawg, Starblaze, Neanderthal Joe, Shining Dawn, Tokamak Dragon, Stinger Incarnate, Burning Tyger, Dover Tornado, Big Roach, Dark Paladin, Archmage Wylde, Kings Row Hornet, Prancing Deer
Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Melancton
Red Gren, this is a valid point, one that occurred to me at the outset. "Who Will Die?" It could be A, B and C, not just A.
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You're right! "Who" can be plural as well. Maybe "Who Will Die?" might mean "How Many Will Die?"
American Dawg, Starblaze, Neanderthal Joe, Shining Dawn, Tokamak Dragon, Stinger Incarnate, Burning Tyger, Dover Tornado, Big Roach, Dark Paladin, Archmage Wylde, Kings Row Hornet, Prancing Deer
Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
Quote:
Actually I'd bet on Manticore actually taking over the mantle of Statesman, I mean the way it will be done will be through the Pillar anyway, to take away his power, and he'll die heroically saving Paragon City, but that still leaves the question of where does that power go?
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Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
If he really ends up dead dead instead of comic book dead (Like Johnny Storm whose body wasn't even cold by the time his return was announced) we can just grab ourselves a Marcus Cole from some other dimension. There's millions of him out there.
But my money is on him not being dead dead and the real person who dies permanently will do so as part of the effort to bring States back. Currently Manticore seems the most likely to end up that way since he's got some redeeming to do after the last couple WWD arcs. |
I am betting this is classic misdirection. That's what I thought when I read the announcement, and I feel it is solidified by Zwill's post earlier on this page. ("...we wanted you to know this.")
Take The Dark Knight for example: When Gordon got shot in the middle of the film, for all we knew (as the audience) he was dead. It made no sense given the prominence of "Commissioner Gordon" in the Batman universe, but for a while there, it did not look like he was coming back. I am betting this is a similar device.
It appears Statesman will die, but I hardly think that's it. I think it is more likely that someone else will die as opposed to Statesman returning, but I do not see enough evidence to strongly sway my opinion in one direction or the other.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Here's another thing, does that mean the Statesman TF is only run able through Ouroborous after players finish the story arc?
Quote:
Statesman is down. He is... dead.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
I am betting this is classic misdirection. That's what I thought when I read the announcement, and I feel it is solidified by Zwill's post earlier on this page. ("...we wanted you to know this.")
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Or IS he??
"Everyone will THINK you are dead, 007. They won't be looking for you." Yeah, it could even be something like that.
Blofeld: "We thought you were dead, Mr. Bond."
Bond: "Well, this is my second life."
Blofeld: "You Only Live Twice, Mr. Bond."
I tend to doubt it. I think the Devs are going the John Cleese route and States will, at the appropriate time, "get better." And Captain Renault will be shocked, shocked that there is gambling going on in this place.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
I'm not sure that Statesman deserves to be killed off, but it may be for the best in the long run. Yes, he could have been a very deep character, as some people have explained in this thread. But if they can't manage to capture that in their writing, then it's better to martyr him than to write him as a self-important jerk.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn