Thoughts on Trials after i12.5 - Mob Rule
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-09 23:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Oh, I know it's not uber-hard. I just meant that for solo players, the trapdoor bit and the hero-1 section can be difficult initially, whereas the BAF is doable in sleepy-mode, much of the time.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Ramiel's not easy?
Since when? |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Another creature that once required 30+ people to fight and now can be done with a normal team. Nothing about Hamidon that couldn't be solo'd
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As easy as soloing the Hamidon
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Well in the alternate dimension where you can accuratley see into the future maybe, but here in the real world we don't know that for sure, and the playerbases reaction to the DA content and any new trials will surely affect future content development.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Also, this is a very important point about expectations for the solo Incarnate content - it's an add-on to the main Trial content, so people shouldn't expect to get the same amount of regular new solo content as regular new Trials.
For example, a new Trial in I22.5 or I23 isn't a guarantee that there'll also be new solo Incarante content in those Issues too - the Trials are the core Incarnate content, so the main development focus is on them - Dark Astoria is more like a detour from that route to fill a content gap, rather than the start of a new route with an equal amount of focus on it as the Trials route has. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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True enough, the "willingness/ability to follow instructions" by the rest of the league is paramount. Playing on Pinnacle, I rarely run into more than 1 player who refuses and/or is incapable of following instructions, so in terms of leadership I may be spoiled in that sense. However, while I COMPLETELY understand your friend's reasoning, I refuse to make requirements other than those in the game inherently. I simply request at the beginning that, if a player is bringing a less-complete incarnate along, they remember that fact for the duration, take caution, and follow instructions to the letter. Usually, their want for the Incarnate rewards outweighs any desire they may have to "do their own thing" haha.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
Sometimes I don't think leadership is lacking, more the people who are willing to listein and follow instructions by the leaders are.
I am in a very very fortunate position that I have as a Global Friend a very accomplished leader, we acquired both MOTPN and MOMOM within 2 days of it going live, now in that time she has a few rules which she abides by, one is at least half the league will be from her channel and trusted friends that she can rely with the other half consisting of PUG's, her other rule is to bring the best toon you got 50+3 unless you got a good reason not bring it. Now the torrent of abuse (including death threats) she recieved from certain parties over this made me wonder why she would bother running them at all (heaven forbid she ever stops), so If this was the way she was treated for running her attempts this way, why would anyone want to run a league, so if anything it's because of the player base that there are a lack of leaders, people need to respect the person that is putting a league together, they don't have to run them. |
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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It won't change the Trials being the core content for the Incarnate system.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Well in the alternate dimension where you can accuratley see into the future maybe, but here in the real world we don't know that for sure, and the playerbases reaction to the DA content and any new trials will surely affect future content development.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Let me clarify my stance regarding Trials and leadership.
Any content where:
- At least one person must know what the Right Thing To Do is in advance, and
- That person must accurately convey exactly what that Right Thing To Do is, and
- Everyone else participating must read, understand, and follow what is being said, and
- If any of the above fails to be true for anyone, the result is failure for everyone
... is not content I want to play.
Or to be pithier: if one person can break it, and one person can't fix it, it's not for me.
This has nothing to do with difficulty per se, either. The crucial factor is whether one person's success relies on another person's actions. I don't want to rely on strangers or be relied on by them as part of what is supposed to be entertainment.
I'm not arguing that the trials as constituted shouldn't exist. I'm just laying out why I don't play them, and why I appreciate the forthcoming solo alternative. The open question is whether there are enough players who do enjoy trials to support trials as they increase in number and difficulty, and I don't have an answer to that.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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The trials will still be the main focus that is for sure, however based on an entire revamp of a zone to specifically change it to incarnate material, that core is expanded just a bit. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It won't change the Trials being the core content for the Incarnate system.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I'm going with: "You have very specific priorities and the arrogance to think you speak for everyone."|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
So why isn't the trial content very much fun?
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The trials are fun to me and judging from the participation rates I see when I log in, to major portions of the game's players.
Here is a list of the reasons I like the iTrials:
They are short and therefore playable when time is a factor.
They have unique, fun-to-look-at maps.
They are easy to find teams for.
They bring together a good segment of a server's population at any one time.
They have interesting new mechanics.
They have interesting new rewards.
They have interesting new enemies.
If none of the above sounds fun to you, then I'd suggest you're playing the game in a way rather different than the way this one segment of the game has been designed for.
If you're a hardcore base designer, marketeer, RP'r, PvP'r, etc, then yeah, I can see why you might not enjoy this part of the game. In which case, there are plenty of other parts of the game to run around in to enjoy your bit.
But complaining that the trials aren't fun?
Try taking a better picture next time; this one isn't pretty:
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
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Your logic is weak.
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Originally Posted by Casual_Player
The trials are fun to me and judging from the participation rates I see when I log in, to major portions of the game's players.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Ramiel's not easy?
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
The AT is not the problem.
(Edit: I know how that sounds - it's not meant to be a slam on players who found they couldn't complete that solo. But if I can solo it on an SO'd emp defender, decidedly not a damage powerhouse, it's soloable. Inspiration use and paying attention to what's going on are all that's required.) |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually, it isn't players. It is AT/Powersets though. Some of my characters could breeze through Ramiel's arc, others couldn't. One had a tough, but ultimately successful fight with Trapdoor. Others, even loaded with T4 inspirations, multiple temp pets, and Ultimates couldn't get the job done because of power activations were not fast enough.
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T4 Inspirations & Ultimates didn't even exist in the game before Trapdoor got nerfed into being a joke.
Or are you saying that even now, with those things, you have characters that can't solo the current Trapdoor?
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I've found Ramiel to be sometimes easy and sometimes hard, but I've honestly not come across a powerset combination that at level 50 with reasonable inspirations and tactics couldn't do it. However, I build everything to solo reasonably well, and that includes ensuring that by high levels I can generate enough damage to take down a reasonably strong Elite Boss with normal insps for assistance. Without that level of damage, I could see many more support-oriented builds having extreme difficulty with Trapdoor, or being stuck at the end in the Rikti portal room.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually, it isn't players. It is AT/Powersets though. Some of my characters could breeze through Ramiel's arc, others couldn't. One had a tough, but ultimately successful fight with Trapdoor. Others, even loaded with T4 inspirations, multiple temp pets, and Ultimates couldn't get the job done because of power activations were not fast enough.
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Nobody's asking for "more rewarding". Just not "punitively less".|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Positron has mentioned a worry that if the solo and single-group Incarnate content is more rewarding than the trial content, then the trials will wither and dry up.
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If the scales are truly even and trials still wither?
My answer to this is "so the hell what?"
If trials are abandoned in favor of solo and small teams content, it's rather indicative isn't it?
Most of the TFs still get run even though there's tons of rewarding (and in cases, more lucrative) single-player content right?
Personally I'm sick of huge gaggle-**** trials and the increasingly ugly, unresistable, cheat-tastic mechanics they've had to resort to simply to "provide a challenge" for groups of 16-24 players.
Sick. To the point where I pretty much universally refuse to participate anymore. Not to badge-*****. Not to advance. Not even when I'm dying for a team and it's the best thing going. I'd rather log off and read a book I've already read several times and didn't much enjoy.
I don't mind occasional raids. But an entire power system based around NOTHING but raids is an aberration and any community based solely on such "nothing but raids" culture as fundamentally, terminally diseased.
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| I think it's going to serve as a pretty rude wakeup call. |
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| So why isn't the trial content very much fun? |
- Sitting there forever and a day waiting for a league to fill? Accomplishing nothing during the entire painful period? Not being ABLE to do anything more than street-sweeping. Boredom.
- If you're new, being dumped in with no explanation and no assistance. Yet the raid leader is screaming at you for not following some unaddressed script.
- The aforementioned cheaty mechanics. Sorry, but massive unresistable damage and insta-death in a game with this many power effects and ground effects is absolute bull. Oh yeah we *FLASH*Gave*FLASH*You*FLASH*A*FLASH*Warning*FLASH*
- The fact that the trials are slowly reverting back to a "must have X" to succeed gimmick mentality.
- The fact that some people can run the trials a bare minimum number of times and acquire top-tier enhancements at little to no cost. Yet someone else needs to grind it hundreds of times, take weeks or months, and spend massive amounts of Inf to achieve the same results.
- The fact that the "manufacture" method for salvage IS an order of magnitude more expensive. And that there's no direct upward conversion for Threads to Astrals to Empyreans. And that you can't directly buy Rare and VR salvage with anything BUT Empyreans. You have to manufacture Rares from a bunch of Uncommons plus Inf. And you have to manufacture VR's from a bunch of Rares plus Inf.
- The fact that it's really REALLY hard for players to follow a coherent storyline when they're basically expected to simply "swarm of ants" over everything.
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| The 'Vote to Kick' feature isn't exactly well-documented or very accessible. |
How would YOU like to be a newbie who's not be "the most helpful" on an ill-explained and ill-lead trial who gets booted off within 5% of the end boss(') HP and essentially is being told they get nothing?
As to the rest, I more or less agree with everything.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Yeah. Some schmucks will buy Macs, pay $10 for a cup of coffee and think that purchasing carbon credits helps the environment.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's a lot of fun for others
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There's a sucker born every minute.
--Commonly mis-attributed to Phineas Taylor Barnum
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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A fire/kin controller of mine, with a mix of single origins and generic IOs (okay, one purple set for the immobilize because it was cheap enough at the time) took 3 attempts after Issue 20 to get past Trapdoor. I can't remember if I used Warburg nukes the last time.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
T4 Inspirations & Ultimates didn't even exist in the game before Trapdoor got nerfed into being a joke.
Or are you saying that even now, with those things, you have characters that can't solo the current Trapdoor? |
These days? I don't even bother to do the arc and just buy the Alpha Unlock for the Astral Merits. The arc is simply not worth my time on my new level 50 builds as they aren't always slotted the best for specific cheats the developers want to throw at players.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've found Ramiel to be sometimes easy and sometimes hard, but I've honestly not come across a powerset combination that at level 50 with reasonable inspirations and tactics couldn't do it. However, I build everything to solo reasonably well, and that includes ensuring that by high levels I can generate enough damage to take down a reasonably strong Elite Boss with normal insps for assistance. Without that level of damage, I could see many more support-oriented builds having extreme difficulty with Trapdoor, or being stuck at the end in the Rikti portal room.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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C'mon man, I was totally behind virtually everything you said in your post above this one! I happen to like my Mac computer, y'know... ($10 coffee and carbon credits is still bull though)|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yeah. Some schmucks will buy Macs, pay $10 for a cup of coffee and think that purchasing carbon credits helps the environment.
There's a sucker born every minute. --Commonly mis-attributed to Phineas Taylor Barnum |
I'll still second the objective statements you gave, but layoff us Mac guys
Oh, and as for Ramiel's arc, I run it at -1. Never had a problem
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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The devs like them too:|
Originally Posted by Casual_Player
The trials are fun to me and judging from the participation rates I see when I log in, to major portions of the game's players.
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Originally Posted by Positron
As much as you players love to play them, I know the designers love to design them. ItÂ’s one of the more enjoyable parts of our jobs, designing these Incarnate Trials to see just what our players are made of.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If it doesn't have enough offense to comfortably solo, I'm not going to get to level 50 to find out in the first place. But then again, even when I roll Emp/Electric, I'm going to find some way for it to kick some ***.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
How about characters that don't have a lot of sets, set bonuses, or even generic IOs in addition to being more support oriented? I know... Tactics and inspirations. My favorite tactic in that position? Ask a friend with a very powerful Ill/Storm to help me.
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But as I said, that's just me. Trapdoor and the last mission are significantly higher in difficulty than the average standard content. So anything that doesn't breeze through standard content will have an even higher difficulty with Ramiel. That's probably intentional: I would suspect that, setting aside the discussion of gameplay tricks like Trapdoor's bifurcation, the solo incarnate path will likely be something between standard content and Ramiel, with Ramiel's difficulty being at or near the upper end of what's likely.
Incidentally, the last time I did Ramiel it was on a Bots/Sonic mastermind slotted mostly with SOs and a few common IOs. I had to chase Trapdoor a bit but I got him on the first try. I had to pull the EBs in the last mission, which I'm not doing often on a mastermind, and I got them both in two deaths.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
The statement was meant to be cumulative.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
C'mon man, I was totally behind virtually everything you said in your post above this one! I happen to like my Mac computer, y'know... ($10 coffee and carbon credits is still bull though)
I'll still second the objective statements you gave, but layoff us Mac guys Oh, and as for Ramiel's arc, I run it at -1. Never had a problem |
If you just bought a Mac, there's still hope for you.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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We don't know that: See my earlier comment about seeing into the future. If the players decamp to DA en masse in sufficient numbers because they find they can have more fun in 8-man groups steamrolling the 'solo' content for incarnate progression in the same manner they've been able to optimise trial runs to the silly casual zerg-states that the BAF and sLAM have become, then wether or not the trials are 'core' content becomes irrelevant. Call the UG core all you like, I see '+3 [AT] lf any trial but UG' and 'lf BAF, sLAM, Keyes' in Pocket D far more than i see 'team forming to repeat UG ad nauseum' type calls.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It won't change the Trials being the core content for the Incarnate system.
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Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Trapdoor can be a funny thing at times due to the AI.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
How about characters that don't have a lot of sets, set bonuses, or even generic IOs in addition to being more support oriented? I know... Tactics and inspirations. My favorite tactic in that position? Ask a friend with a very powerful Ill/Storm to help me.
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I once had a nearly impossible time with him on a NICELY IO'ed out SS/Inv Brute because I couldn't pull and keep him in the lava and couldn't beat him down fast enough while keeping his clones killed.
A fricking brute!
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There will be enough time-gating to make sure the solo progress is slower than the Trials, even with a very efficient team.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
We don't know that: See my earlier comment about seeing into the future. If the players decamp to DA en masse in sufficient numbers because they find they can have more fun in 8-man groups steamrolling the 'solo' content for incarnate progression in the same manner they've been able to optimise trial runs to the silly casual zerg-states that the BAF and sLAM have become, then wether or not the trials are 'core' content becomes irrelevant. Call the UG core all you like, I see '+3 [AT] lf any trial but UG' and 'lf BAF, sLAM, Keyes' in Pocket D far more than i see 'team forming to repeat UG ad nauseum' type calls.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The DA solo path stuff - I'm hoping that any fancy mechanics they put in are like the fight with Blitz in one of the Sig arcs. I've done that twice now, once in a duo and once in a trio, and I was extremely pleased by the fight. It had a lovely small set of interesting game mechanics, with the initial 'take down the towers' bit, then a straight fight to half health, then a fun glowie clicking section, and finall a fight with the Boss to take him down. The map wasn't too big, yet it was a recognisable place so cool to fight in, and importantly, unlike the trials, the place wasnt also swarming with hordes of annoying minions and lts and even more importantly, there was no massive swarm of other players all spamming auras and aoes and attacks, turning the screen into a mass of pixel-vomit.
This game is based on superhero comicbooks. Pull your camera back and use pageup to rotate it a tad and take a screenshot in one of your solo arcs during a fight. You'll easily come up with a cool-looking screenie that wouldn't look out of place in a MArvel or DC title. Now enter a BAF and take a screenshot during the final Seige/NS fight. Yeuch.
I've had an idea for another thread.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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So what about solo path players, how will their rate compare to the team path players?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There will be enough time-gating to make sure the solo progress is slower than the Trials, even with a very efficient team.
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How quickly we all have forgotten: there was a time when few of us knew how BAF and Lambda worked. The only way we learned was by giving it a shot under the leadership of someone who had run it before (or had at least read the guide) and was willing to explain how to handle each stage. Over time, the rest of us got the hang of it, and now the majority of the player base knows BAF and Lambda tactics in their sleep, and can very much just auto-pilot themselves through.
Unfortunately, Keyes's first incarnation was entirely dreadful, and the Underground was slightly less dreadful but much longer than most wanted. So people stopped running them, stopped learning them. Now, they have fixed Keyes to where it is as easy to auto-pilot through, and as I understand, are still considering ways to make the Underground more desirable.
On top of that, they have released TPN and MoM, both of which are short, and remarkably doable provided a leader is willing to take 5 minutes at the beginning and give a rundown of how things will work, in addtion to giving on-the-go reminders throughout the trial. By doing so, the leader is teaching the mechanics of the trial to new people, while also increasing their confidence and morale thus making it less likely that they will get frustrated, nervous, and do something they aren't supposed to do.
If all else fails, and in all seriousness, read the online trial guides. While some of them are (annoyingly) a tad out of date in terms of numbers, the stages and instructions on what to do are practically the same. You can go into the trial feeling confidant about what you are going to do, and might even be able to lead one and impart that knowledge to others.
I am in a very very fortunate position that I have as a Global Friend a very accomplished leader, we acquired both MOTPN and MOMOM within 2 days of it going live, now in that time she has a few rules which she abides by, one is at least half the league will be from her channel and trusted friends that she can rely with the other half consisting of PUG's, her other rule is to bring the best toon you got 50+3 unless you got a good reason not bring it.
Now the torrent of abuse (including death threats) she recieved from certain parties over this made me wonder why she would bother running them at all (heaven forbid she ever stops), so If this was the way she was treated for running her attempts this way, why would anyone want to run a league, so if anything it's because of the player base that there are a lack of leaders, people need to respect the person that is putting a league together, they don't have to run them.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt