Thoughts on Trials after i12.5 - Mob Rule
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-09 23:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Think the biggest problem for Devs has always been when it comes to solo paths for incarnates is how to set the difficulty, the Trapdoor Arc was a prime example.
Where some AT's breezed through the arc, others unfortunately become stuck and irritated by it, and thus the devs came under fire immediately by those that struggled.
I think as a solo path they should make it as difficult as a team based trial, but incorperate NPC's to plug in the hole's depending on what AT you use. A selection process at the beginning of a trial to select members of the Freedom or vindicator groups or even unknown villians or heroes to join you in the solo trial would be fun and fill out the gaps your AT was not meant to fill.
Last mission on the Silos Arc is a good example, I love to go free certain NPC's to give me the boost I need against the Jade Spider, free-ing NPC's on the way through a solo incarnate arc would be a nice way to feel on a level par with the Freedom Phlanx etc. on your way to god-hood 
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Would like a solo arc to be going into the Preatoria version of The Zig and freeing captured Heroes/villians, the more powerful the Hero/villian the better the security you will come up against, with various AV's called in to stop you on some sort of timer or activated by an alarm system.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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If this was actually true after a few trial runs I'd agree with it. The BAF is by anyone's standards 'easy', surely, whereas solo-possible content like Mender Ramiel's arc or Requiem/Striga/Sog arcs is arguably not. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The solo path rewards will be lower and slower, as the enemies in the solo content aren't as challenging as the enemies on the Trials.
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Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Now this brings up a problem that can be hard to solve... how do you set something up so that it is a challenge, and *yet* still doesnt matter if one sub-group or the other doesnt achieve their own goals?|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Well, here's a sentence I wasn't expecting to write today: I agree with J_B.
More importantly, though, I do not like to make strangers fail through my actions. I haven't run UG more than once, and I haven't run anything past UG and don't intend to, because I have no interest in any situation where I can cause problems for others by not doing the right thing. I have no problem with difficulty, and I have no problem with consequences for myself if I do not do the right thing. But I'm not going to put the time and effort of 23 other people at risk. I don't need that kind of stress in my pretendy fun time game. I'll be soloing to Incarnate. |
One way to do it, is to make each stage give their own rewards, and you dont fail the trial if you dont pass them, whilst also making the "end reward" scale according to how many stages you complete successfully.
So whilst you wont necessarily fail the *end goal* you can still fail the build up to it, and pull it out of the hat to complete the trial.... course, your reward wouldnt be as good as the league who got everything successfully
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I like it. Maybe villains would get to go against Primal Earth Zig?
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
Would like a solo arc to be going into the Preatoria version of The Zig and freeing captured Heroes/villians, the more powerful the Hero/villian the better the security you will come up against, with various AV's called in to stop you on some sort of timer or activated by an alarm system.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Also my view. I'll gladly run BAF because I'm comfortable with it and know I can't adversely affect it. Pretty much the same goes for Lambda, though I still get frustrated with the collection maps (lag). I haven't run anything past that though. I'm fine knowing that I'm not really the gamer the devs are looking for for the trials though, and am happy to hear that there is a solo option coming. Honestly though, I think going forward on most of my characters the Alpha slot is really going to be the main focus.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
More importantly, though, I do not like to make strangers fail through my actions. I haven't run UG more than once, and I haven't run anything past UG and don't intend to, because I have no interest in any situation where I can cause problems for others by not doing the right thing. I have no problem with difficulty, and I have no problem with consequences for myself if I do not do the right thing. But I'm not going to put the time and effort of 23 other people at risk. I don't need that kind of stress in my pretendy fun time game. I'll be soloing to Incarnate.
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Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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There's more to Trial AVs than their HP - that's what's caused problems for people who go into the Trials with the wrong mindset |
Originally Posted by Jagged
One last go for luck:
More hit points <> Harder |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Somewhat faulty premise, as right now the trials are the ONLY way to get Incarnate components in anything other than geological time scales. I play them even though I don't really find them "fun." |
Originally Posted by El__D
A few points.
A) The trials are fun for a lot of people, myself included. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to form four or five of them on any given afternoon on my server (Protector). Just because you don't enjoy them doesn't mean they aren't fun to play at all. |
They'd be great if they'd been brought out, *from the beginning,* with a mix of solo stuff so there was some variety.
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| C) The trials are not 'light on story' either. The only way the trials could be considered light on story aspects and plot is if you consciously skip over all of Prometheus' dialogue, and all of the dialogue and scenes in the trials as well, and ignore the fact that they are part of a massive, interconnected story-line that spans all levels of the game (with the iTrials being the conclusion/endgame). Hell, the MoM trial has numerous sections in-between each phase where you can talk with various NPCs for information, with no rush or anything. |
Not to mention the "interconnected story" is running amok over everything else.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Ramiel's not easy?|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
If this was actually true after a few trial runs I'd agree with it. The BAF is by anyone's standards 'easy', surely, whereas solo-possible content like Mender Ramiel's arc or Requiem/Striga/Sog arcs is arguably not.
Eco |
Since when?
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Originally Posted by slazinger
Where some players breezed through the arc, others unfortunately become stuck and irritated by it, and thus the devs came under fire immediately by those that struggled.
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(Edit: I know how that sounds - it's not meant to be a slam on players who found they couldn't complete that solo. But if I can solo it on an SO'd emp defender, decidedly not a damage powerhouse, it's soloable. Inspiration use and paying attention to what's going on are all that's required.)
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Everything other than the ridiculously hit points could be included in the solo content.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There's more to Trial AVs than their HP - that's what's caused problems for people who go into the Trials with the wrong mindset
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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The Avatar of Hamidon might be a bit rough for some solo ATs and builds |
Originally Posted by Jagged
Everything other than the ridiculously hit points could be included in the solo content.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Those are all out-of-game things - the story content for the Trials is all in-game.
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
That's like saying "Doom" (decidedly story-light game) wasn't "light on story" because there were books and movies and such about it.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There's more to come:|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The raid mentality and the balance point it brings is why Incarnates feel like a step DOWN the ladder.
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Originally Posted by Second Measure
Eventually, once we release all of the Incarnate Slots, youll even be a little overpowered for the first waves of Incarnate Trials, and by then, well have something much more challenging for you to do with your newfound power. (Evil chuckle redacted.)
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If the point were in New York, you'd be in Beijing. As usual.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Those are all out-of-game things - the story content for the Trials is all in-game.
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Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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No more than any other AV scaled down to EB.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Avatar of Hamidon might be a bit rough for some solo ATs and builds
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Actually, I'm in upsate NY right now |
Originally Posted by Stormbird
If the point were in New York, you'd be in Beijing. As usual.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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He's quite confusing |
Originally Posted by Jagged
No more than any other AV scaled down to EB.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If we are talking about a solo version of the Underground, that's probably the thing that would need the least down scaling.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
He's quite confusing
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Then 20 minutes while the leader explains the trial to newcomers. Due to the large numbers of players required, there is usually at least one newcomer.|
Originally Posted by Optimus_Dex
A couple of things I hate about the trials - waiting 20 minutes or so while they get organized- brb's , zoning , alting .
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
The best solution, then, is to design the trials such that the players can self-select to be officers or grunts; the officers do the fiddly things and think about where to go and what to do when, while the grunts follow along and mash buttons. BAF does that well. At any given time the only targetable things are those things you're supposed to hit, so grunts aren't penalized for attacking them, while the officers can lead the groups to the right areas for the prisoner escape and pull the AVs to the killing ground. Badges take a little more effort, but still aren't too hard as long as players know which team they're in.
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Oh wait...would that mean nobody wants to be a grunt anymore? Probably. Which is the inherent problem with designing content that requires so many grunts. People only want to be grunts because it means they're getting their rewards essentially for free.
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
My issue is that levels 1-50 hold your hand and basically give you levels. iTrials, by comparison, are sorta difficult. So after the game has finished carrying Little Timmy through 50 levels, he has learned that all he has to do is mash buttons until happy fanfare plays. Then he goes into an iTrial and mashes buttons. When the League leader tells Little Timmy to stop mashing buttons and click his temps of the War Walker, Little Timmy is puzzled and responds by mashing buttons. When the League leader spends 15 minutes explaining to Little Timmy that using his Ion Judgement while confused will, in fact, kill the raid, and all he need do is keep himself Break-Free'd the whole fight, Little Timmy responds by mashing buttons (and murdering the raid).
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Also, this is a very important point about expectations for the solo Incarnate content - it's an add-on to the main Trial content, so people shouldn't expect to get the same amount of regular new solo content as regular new Trials.
For example, a new Trial in I22.5 or I23 isn't a guarantee that there'll also be new solo Incarante content in those Issues too - the Trials are the core Incarnate content, so the main development focus is on them - Dark Astoria is more like a detour from that route to fill a content gap, rather than the start of a new route with an equal amount of focus on it as the Trials route has.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But wouldn't that still be a frustrating "gimmick"? |
Originally Posted by Jagged
If we are talking about a solo version of the Underground, that's probably the thing that would need the least down scaling.
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Although talking about it as a solo option is pretty silly - there's not going to be a solo version of the Praetorian Trials - lore-wise, Tyrant and the loyalists are too powerful for a single hero to take on by themselves - and the Battalion are even more powerful than the loyalists
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No. Confuse is one of the "soft" mez effects when it comes to soloing. Frustrating gimmicks are things like damage pulses because some idiot's pet has attacked the AV.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But wouldn't that still be a frustrating "gimmick"?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Although talking about it as a solo option is pretty silly - there's not going to be a solo version of the Praetorian Trials - lore-wise, Tyrant and the loyalists are too powerful for a single hero to take on by themselves - and the Battalion are even more powerful than the loyalists
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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As easy as soloing the Hamidon |
Originally Posted by Jagged
Not at all. The in-game lore has more than enough room for them to be any suitable strength. I have already kicked Tyrant's butt once, solo. I will do so again. We just need a mission with some objective to make the Well desert Tyrant and then we can defeat him Incarnate to Incarnate. You see? Easy.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
i12.5? *raises eyebrow*
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Well, here's a sentence I wasn't expecting to write today: I agree with J_B.
More importantly, though, I do not like to make strangers fail through my actions. I haven't run UG more than once, and I haven't run anything past UG and don't intend to, because I have no interest in any situation where I can cause problems for others by not doing the right thing. I have no problem with difficulty, and I have no problem with consequences for myself if I do not do the right thing. But I'm not going to put the time and effort of 23 other people at risk. I don't need that kind of stress in my pretendy fun time game. I'll be soloing to Incarnate. |
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Originally Posted by gec72
Also my view. I'll gladly run BAF because I'm comfortable with it and know I can't adversely affect it. Pretty much the same goes for Lambda, though I still get frustrated with the collection maps (lag). I haven't run anything past that though. I'm fine knowing that I'm not really the gamer the devs are looking for for the trials though, and am happy to hear that there is a solo option coming. Honestly though, I think going forward on most of my characters the Alpha slot is really going to be the main focus.
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How quickly we all have forgotten: there was a time when few of us knew how BAF and Lambda worked. The only way we learned was by giving it a shot under the leadership of someone who had run it before (or had at least read the guide) and was willing to explain how to handle each stage. Over time, the rest of us got the hang of it, and now the majority of the player base knows BAF and Lambda tactics in their sleep, and can very much just auto-pilot themselves through.
Unfortunately, Keyes's first incarnation was entirely dreadful, and the Underground was slightly less dreadful but much longer than most wanted. So people stopped running them, stopped learning them. Now, they have fixed Keyes to where it is as easy to auto-pilot through, and as I understand, are still considering ways to make the Underground more desirable.
On top of that, they have released TPN and MoM, both of which are short, and remarkably doable provided a leader is willing to take 5 minutes at the beginning and give a rundown of how things will work, in addtion to giving on-the-go reminders throughout the trial. By doing so, the leader is teaching the mechanics of the trial to new people, while also increasing their confidence and morale thus making it less likely that they will get frustrated, nervous, and do something they aren't supposed to do.
If all else fails, and in all seriousness, read the online trial guides. While some of them are (annoyingly) a tad out of date in terms of numbers, the stages and instructions on what to do are practically the same. You can go into the trial feeling confidant about what you are going to do, and might even be able to lead one and impart that knowledge to others.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
I want to face Tyrant is single combat, hero to villain, and defeat him utterly. Then he can skulk back to wherever, and power up for the incarnate trial show down. Such events are comic book A B Cs as far as I am concerned
To bring up wrestling, that's a very basic "good guy bad guy" storyline. The bad guys cheat, and they win by cheating. They run away when they're outmatched, they strike when the good guys are the weakest and they have help. But when you bring them down to a fair fight at the pay-per-view, they lose, because the bad guys can't win in a fair fight. You put over the good guys by showing them as being strong, but still manage to build tension by denying them the fair fight in which their strength could win the day.
Now, granted, we do get to fight all the Praetorian EBs in Maria Jenkins' arc, but in the game's timeline, all this happens "before" we become Incarnates. At no point in the actual Incarnate storyline do we get to take them on without divine intervention powering them up.
Why not, for instance, have a run-of-the-mill AV Marauder show up in the middle of a Trial that his souped-up version isn't part of? He could come in, try to make a difference, get beat up and teleport away. Once he's rested up, he shows up again and gets beaten up again. Say, like the Admiral Stutter TF where when you beat Praetorian Duray, clones of him keep coming in to replace him. Sure, it's still a raid, but at least it shows us that... Hey, without his bid daddy, that guy isn't so scary!