Anyone else wish IOs never happened?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-01 13:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Thank you.. same to you !!!!
|
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
I like the way you think.
|
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
Right, which was why I was asking for some to be added. So that we'd have a bit more variety about how we build characters. HOs and frankenslotting don't yeild set bonuses, which is why everyone goes for a few viable options (Defense and Recharge mostly) and little else.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Honestly, almost no IO set crosses functional domains like this. This seems to have been a wide-scale design philosophy of the IO system. Sets enhance single functional aspects of powers, plus operational aspects that all or most powers share.
|
If we got some more variety, there might be more options for our builds.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Especially weird considering there are Dam/Mez HOs (which, incidentally, will solve most of your problems), and that all the slow sets provide some +damage (whyyyyy).
|
Quote:
Uh, really? It sounds like you are craving the limelight. Why would you care if someone helps defeat enemies faster? This comment struck me as selfish, I am sorry to say.
|
Originally Posted by Neggy Z
I'd have quit the game a while ago without IOs - what I wish never happened was Incarnate stuff past the Alpha slot. Nothing makes you feel as insignificant as having an IOed-to-the-gills toon go try to solo a spawn, only to have someone one-shot the entire spawn before you get there with their Judgement.
I know I can get one too, and I know that I don't have to team with a bunch of other incarnates. But it's still annoying. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Thread's already gotten too long... so I'll just leave this here and be done with it. Sorry if that irks some. (Taunt? I must be a Brute or something... 
)
Quote:
This but with IOs too. I mean... HamiOs weren't enough? And it gave ya a reason to run Hami, but now it's just 'cause you want/can.|
Originally Posted by Neggy Z
... Nothing makes you feel as insignificant as having an IOed-to-the-gills toon go try to solo a spawn, only to have someone one-shot the entire spawn before you get there with their Judgement.
I know I can get one too, and I know that I don't have to team with a bunch of other incarnates. But it's still annoying. |
I know I'm probably the weird one, but I just simply don't even do IOs. SOs are good enough, and I have plenty of fun with a character. The whole point of IOs, for me, is this: "Spend a lot of time gathering the crud you need to build the IO set, but what good is that unless I'm already a 50... I'd rather play the game."
Yes, I know IOs at 20 or whatever 'count' for something, but I really would rather just... PLAY.
/I also have fun trying different characters out, so I don't miss the whole crafting thing in the first place, as I'd rather explore how a character works... before the screwed around with IOs.
//Never really got to deal with HamiOs either... too much micromanagement.
///Won't probably ever fully Incarnate anything either, too much time to deal with it.
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
I would have quit by issue 9 or 10. I had messed around in CoV beta for a while and had a few characters i wanted to make. I had them made, and stopped playing them by the time IO's were introduced. red side was too dirty and annoying to travel in and I had no interest in making any more blue bar monitoring characters.
ED and the broad nerfs left a real sour taste in my mouth, most of my characters had their entire style or personality thrown out the window. Some of them were over nerfed, some had the powersets decreased in performance well beyond the implications of ED.
Then IO's came in to play, and I had a way to take a character and instill some of that personality back into them. I had a way to take a powerset, or set combo, and make it play completely different depending on what set of bonuses I went for. Like my Kat/SR scrapper with stupid recharge vs my kat/SR scrapper on SO's, or my Kat/SR scrapper that went for +HP and dmg bonus.
Best of all there was now a way to get decent amounts of rech and especially endo reduction AND get ED dmg and good ACC. Just franken slots was a 100% improvment to some of my oldest, worst affected by ED characters.
So yeah, IMO, IO's saved this game from closeing down the servers years ago. I credit IO's with turning the game into what it is today, thriving and evolving still.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
Quote:
4/8 solo can be challenging, however that change was completely unrelated.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Is the bold part really fair? I mean they did allow for people to fight +4X8 solo with Bosses and AV's without pads. Maybe not enough granted but they have tried to do "something".
What would like to see in the game in terms of more difficult content? |
What I would have liked to see was content designed for 8 people that was challenging for 8 IO'd (and competent) people. However the difference between baseline difficulty and harder difficulty never really widened. It really has nothing to do with being fair, some content should be harder than other content, and that may entail some people not being able to complete it. It took them 12(?) issues to do this with the introduction of Keyes and UG, and for the most part all people do is complain about it being too difficult. IMO, if they were introduced years ago soon after IO's came out, the precedent that the developers set that players should believe that any content that comes out should be mind numbingly easy could have been avoided. However after 12 issues of no increase in difficulty it's hard to change that.
Quote:
IOs were the compensation for ED, if you remove ED then yeah you can get rid of IOs. To answer the question no I still want IOs. IOs have made alot of horrible sets that I felt were unplayable into playable powersets. It resolved the kb issue on alot of my characters without wasting a power pick and endurance on acrobatics. What I do wish never happen was pvp as we are stuck with alot of pointless changes because of it prior to them divorcing pvp from pve.
|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
I love the benefits of IOs as much as the next guy, and I use them on all my characters. However, they sure do make a lot of powers and ATs feel broken or obsolete. Part of me wishes that the invention system was only ever crafting temp powers. I love using craftable temps on my characters, and would love it even more if there were more options. Keep in mind, I'm in no way advocating that IOs be removed or anything like that. They've been around far too long to go back now. I was just wondering if anyone else ever longed for the good old days when teams ran around more often because it meant something more than "those people I need to start the TF".
|
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
And just today, that info changed.
|
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
Thanks for the info, UG.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Lol pvp. PvP was an after thought in this game that was just shoe horned in very poorly. Because they did not seperate it initally from pve thats why there was a huge backlash of people not wanting to pvp. Almost no MMO can ever balance 1 on 1 pvp and many players have unrealistic expectations. If they truely want pvp to loved in this game they need to start over and repeal every single pvp nerf that bleed into pve. That would go a long way in fixing it. Then go and give psi blasters their range back. Then you tweak from there.
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
I do kind of wish IO's never happened. Well, there are a few of them that I can't live without (some of the uniques), but other than that, they add a lot of tedious work, which I personally don't enjoy at all. With SO's, you can fully slot a toon in like 5 minutes. With IO's, it can take days or weeks. And I just don't enjoy that part of the game at all. But of course I do enjoy the benefit.
I will say this though: No doubt in my mind that PvP would have been better off without IO's. At this point if you haven't spent 15+ billion on your build, you may as well not even set foot in PvP, at least if you're new. It's absolutely insane to require that much of an investment just to TRY something, considering 99% of the game population will NEVER have that much inf. Allowing only SO's would have put everybody on the same level, so things would be decided by skill, not by who spent more on their build. Of course IO's weren't the only (or even nearly the biggest) thing that destroyed PvP, but I fully believe it would have been better off without them. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
I think you are totally looking at this wrong. If you are like myself and many other players who have been here since day 1 we have done all the content several times. Its very rare that I ever join a mission team thats not doing a TF/SF/Trial or alinement missions. Doing anything else is pointless because you get next to nothing in terms of rewards unless its your missions. So why team if you are getting no reward for it? If anything I see that giving us more rewards for old stuff has gone a long way to get more people playing the game. The whole this player can solo the entire mission thing came about because they let people set it for 8. Otherwise we would be back to those annoying tells about padding and filling. Also keep in mind you would almost never be allowed to team in those missions anyways with those kinds of players so why worry about it.
|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
That's kind of the point that I'm trying to make though. Back then, the whole teams are pointless mindset was limited to a few powerset combinations that just happened to be overpowered. Most players still actually needed a team, and beyond that they actually contributed to the team in a specific way. Blasters and Scrappers gave damage, Tankers tanked, Defenders buffed/debuffed, Controllers mezzed things. Now, not only do most of those ATs do something else or nothing at all when they are added to a team, but virtually anyone can and does solo 90+% of the game. Maybe it's just a server population thing, but pre-IOs I would see teams pretty much all the time at every level for just ordinary missions. Now, those sorts of teams are limited to the early game and occasionally the mid-20s up to 32. There are virtually no mission teams above level 35. Beyond that, teams now exist for 1 reason. They allow you to run content which has a minimum player count - TFs and Trials. Not that I would ever want to try to solo an Underground or anything, I'm just saying that almost all high level teams are doing TFs or Trials. That isn't how it used to be, and I actually enjoy the multiplayer aspect of MMOs.
I remember it somewhat differently. It was almost always asking if you would fill for PLs on that one portal mission with all the Freakshow. I don't recall ever being asked to fill for normal door missions. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
The problem is that those of us who breeze through content really, really are not the norm. The devs would be making content tuned for a rarefied part of their player base. On top of that, almost by definition, even if we could not breeze through that content, we tend to be the type of players who would burn through it as rapidly as feasible. So they'd be making stuff for a small part of the player base that they would be "done" with in record time.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
What I would have liked to see was content designed for 8 people that was challenging for 8 IO'd (and competent) people. However the difference between baseline difficulty and harder difficulty never really widened. It really has nothing to do with being fair, some content should be harder than other content, and that may entail some people not being able to complete it. It took them 12(?) issues to do this with the introduction of Keyes and UG, and for the most part all people do is complain about it being too difficult. IMO, if they were introduced years ago soon after IO's came out, the precedent that the developers set that players should believe that any content that comes out should be mind numbingly easy could have been avoided. However after 12 issues of no increase in difficulty it's hard to change that.
|
I just don't see that as sustainable in a game that's not strongly predicated around the progress ladder we see in a lot of other MMOs, where the low-level areas tend to be ghost towns because everyone is racing to be with the crowd in the end game. We only just got an end game, and after the "ooh shiny" wore off, there aren't a ton of people "hanging out" there.
I think difficulty settings are a much more sensible approach. They leave the devs free to try and create a more or less consistent difficulty for general content and then let us crank that up if we're strong enough to handle it.
I agree that a team of eight folks who can solo on +4/x8* clearly aren't going to be challenged by a mission even set to +4, because there will be 8 characters who could solo everything present. There's likely a mechanical limitation there on how many critters the devs can spawn in a map - they've talked about that on and off in the past.
One thing I wonder if there's any technical possibility of would be a "rank shift" setting. Can you imagine if you could up-shift just the HP and AT mods on everything in your missions one rank? Minions->LTs, LTs->bosses, and bosses->EBs. Think of it like the AV downgrade in reverse. Given lessons learned in the AE, I think they probably could not let shifted ranks give the full reward of the new ranks, but I would think some elevated reward would make sense.
Soloing anything at +4/x8/Rank+ would be exceptionally bad-*** in my estimation, and could add a new dimension of challenge even for a team of 8 bad-*** characters.
* Bearing in mind that I am tossing +4/x8 soloing out in a vague and unqualified sense, when in reality even most high-end builds can't solo on those settings against arbitrary mobs.
Edit: By the way...
Quote:
| 4/8 solo can be challenging, however that change was completely unrelated. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
For some characters defense isnt the goal. For my WP tank the goal has always been get as much HP and Regen as possible. Prior to them raising the tanker cap I was less than 100 HP from the cap. That did more for me than the defense did especially since the things I fought were either autohit or had insane defense debuffs. Oh and lets not forget how much easier it is to play a dark armor stalker when you have recovery set bonuses as well as knockback protection. You seem to be so stuck on this defense thing and totally forget that other stuff matters.
|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
But how custom is that when your character and everyone else's is performing the same way, with softcapped defense being the main goal most players use for set bonuses?
|
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
It's not so much craving the limelight as it is craving something to do... other than toss another Judgement on the fire. Sometimes a long drawn out fight you scarcely survive is more fun than steamrolling a hoard of enemies.
|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Uh, really? It sounds like you are craving the limelight. Why would you care if someone helps defeat enemies faster? This comment struck me as selfish, I am sorry to say.
|
Quote:
Definitely. I don't care if I'm the star or not, I just want to contribute and have some of my own fun. Tough to do that when the tanker opens up with a Judgement and decimates the spawn in one go.|
Originally Posted by ketch
It's not so much craving the limelight as it is craving something to do... other than toss another Judgement on the fire. Sometimes a long drawn out fight you scarcely survive is more fun than steamrolling a hoard of enemies.
|
When running on steamroll missions with my Blaster, I used to gauge how soon the team would finish with the current spawn and run ahead to the next so I could use my LRM before the rest of the team vaporized it. Not because I wanted to show off how awesome I was, but just so that I could use it in a meaningful way.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
IOs are fine. I wish Incarnate never happened.
P.S. They put way too much Defense into the system. I suspect this was more oversight than design, or at least I'd like to think so.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
I love IO's,Set IO's, HO's, Purples, Incarnate powers etc...
If this game did not have these items I would not be playing.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
Yeah I understand the limitations of what I would have liked to see. On the other hand Rank+ would have been a fabulous addition after IOs came out, more importantly if it actually included an increased reward for doing a TF on rank+ difficulty, like a 50-100% increase to reward merits or something. Even now, I would *love* to see that implemented.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The problem is that those of us who breeze through content really, really are not the norm. The devs would be making content tuned for a rarefied part of their player base. On top of that, almost by definition, even if we could not breeze through that content, we tend to be the type of players who would burn through it as rapidly as feasible. So they'd be making stuff for a small part of the player base that they would be "done" with in record time.
I just don't see that as sustainable in a game that's not strongly predicated around the progress ladder we see in a lot of other MMOs, where the low-level areas tend to be ghost towns because everyone is racing to be with the crowd in the end game. We only just got an end game, and after the "ooh shiny" wore off, there aren't a ton of people "hanging out" there. I think difficulty settings are a much more sensible approach. They leave the devs free to try and create a more or less consistent difficulty for general content and then let us crank that up if we're strong enough to handle it. I agree that a team of eight folks who can solo on +4/x8* clearly aren't going to be challenged by a mission even set to +4, because there will be 8 characters who could solo everything present. There's likely a mechanical limitation there on how many critters the devs can spawn in a map - they've talked about that on and off in the past. One thing I wonder if there's any technical possibility of would be a "rank shift" setting. Can you imagine if you could up-shift just the HP and AT mods on everything in your missions one rank? Minions->LTs, LTs->bosses, and bosses->EBs. Think of it like the AV downgrade in reverse. Given lessons learned in the AE, I think they probably could not let shifted ranks give the full reward of the new ranks, but I would think some elevated reward would make sense. Soloing anything at +4/x8/Rank+ would be exceptionally bad-*** in my estimation, and could add a new dimension of challenge even for a team of 8 bad-*** characters. [SIZE=1]* Bearing in mind that I am tossing +4/x8 soloing out in a vague and unqualified sense, when in reality even most high-end builds can't solo on those settings against arbitrary mobs. [SIZE=2]Edit: By the way... On what basis do you say that? I think the slider changes were directly made in response to the capabilities evidenced by people with high-end builds, and those builds were primarily made possible by IOs. |
Quote:
This could be more or less true, as it was mentioned either in the subsequent UStream casts or the Player Summit threads that they wish to make the decision between defense and resistance more... viable, and this was based on the data-mined meta-game for generally buildin' for soft-capped defense, which is probably positional or smashing/lethal.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
P.S. They put way too much Defense into the system. I suspect this was more oversight than design, or at least I'd like to think so.
|
You'll probably either see the exotic damage types become more prevalent, say Toxic like the Rikti Pylons in the Apex TF to work against the smashing/lethal defense types, or the Hamidon method with untyped damage, or the Keyes Trial Anti-Matter pulse route with a straight percentage off the top.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
I wish they had designed them better. I don't like that if you want to be invisible, you shouldn't take the stealth pool, but if you want to attack faster you should. I don't like that if you want to be good at avoiding smashing/lethal damage, it pays to have a lot of single target melee attacks. I don't like that I can often gain more defense by taking a resist power and not using it than by taking a defense power.
The idea of the set bonuses allowing people to move outside of the normal limits of the ATs/powerset was good, but it was implemented poorly - with some power choices getting much better variety and power for no good reason.
Quote:
If by "lowb" you mean alpha slotted 50 and by "top end" you mean someone who has run 4 bafs, sure.
|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I think that's more a 'problem' with uneven teams, where you have lowbs tagging along with top end characters
|
My blaster only became super fun once IOed. Devestation in every blast for a chance to hold = A not so dead blaster!
Quote:
This is already prevalent in the end-game. Not just in the form of unresistible damge like Keyes, but in the damage types Incarnate-centric foes deal. For example, War Works deal heavily in ranged Energy damage, and 9CU-line robots and IDF Heavy Commanders deal the thoroughly odd combo of Toxic and Energy damage at range. Seers also of course deal in Psi damage, and also wield terrorize effects, which a lot of melee powersets lack protection from.|
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
You'll probably either see the exotic damage types become more prevalent, say Toxic like the Rikti Pylons in the Apex TF to work against the smashing/lethal defense types, or the Hamidon method with untyped damage, or the Keyes Trial Anti-Matter pulse route with a straight percentage off the top.
|
They also deal significant defense and DR debuffs, which are auto-hit.
It's worth noting that such foes are not totally new - the IDF bear a lot of similarity in terms of damage they deal to Arachnos, with less Fire damage and more Energy. Now, especially since Arachnos predates IOs, they seem to have been designed to bypass common powerset protections more than IOs, per se. However, I think those same design happen to also serve well against IO'd characters, and I think it's telling that some of the abilities underwent such a direct translation into "end game" critters.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I suppose that was my point as the examples I listed were end-game opponents, only that it would become more so, perhaps with more Psi in MoM-like scenarios.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is already prevalent in the end-game. Not just in the form of unresistible damge like Keyes, but in the damage types Incarnate-centric foes deal. For example, War Works deal heavily in ranged Energy damage, and 9CU-line robots and IDF Heavy Commanders deal the thoroughly odd combo of Toxic and Energy damage at range. Seers also of course deal in Psi damage, and also wield terrorize effects, which a lot of melee powersets lack protection from.
They also deal significant defense and DR debuffs, which are auto-hit. It's worth noting that such foes are not totally new - the IDF bear a lot of similarity in terms of damage they deal to Arachnos, with less Fire damage and more Energy. It's worth noting, especially since Arachnos predates IOs, that they seem to have been designed to bypass common powerset protections more than IOs, per se. However, I think those same design happen to also serve well against IO'd characters, and I think it's telling that some of the abilities underwent such a direct translation into "end game" critters. |
And now that I've been ruminatin' on this a bit more, they could just have more objectives that aren't incomin' attacks/damage related, such as BAF with the escapees, where your defense and resistance aren't a factor in helpin' to complete that particular portion o' the trial.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
Quote:
I would have long since moved on to other games.
|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
I love the benefits of IOs as much as the next guy, and I use them on all my characters. However, they sure do make a lot of powers and ATs feel broken or obsolete. Part of me wishes that the invention system was only ever crafting temp powers. I love using craftable temps on my characters, and would love it even more if there were more options. Keep in mind, I'm in no way advocating that IOs be removed or anything like that. They've been around far too long to go back now. I was just wondering if anyone else ever longed for the good old days when teams ran around more often because it meant something more than "those people I need to start the TF".
|
The best setups I have found is a combination of IO's and Hami-O's
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-