Anyone else wish IOs never happened?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-01 13:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
That's true I suppose. I guess another thing that contributes to my perception, beyond just the forums, is that the people in game that talk a lot about their set bonuses are generally the ones that have done something worth talking about. More often than not that turns out to be soft capping.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
This is your assumption. Everyone does not build for softcapped defense.
I have THREE toons out of the 40ish I have that are not Tanks or Brutes that have softcapped defense. Even some of my Tanks dont have it. Also I believe you are also assuming that everyone that is using IO's are min/max types that have Mids calculations and spreadsheets everywhere and nothing could be further from the truth.. Remember the people in the forums do not represent the majority of players. |
I'm getting a lot of hostility in this thread. I never meant to offend anyone or say that IOs are an overly negative thing. I simply was making an observation about how they have made the game different than how it used to be. That's all. I guess on the one hand, they have brought it closer to pre-ED though so that is a positive component.
Overall I like the system, despite the fact that I occasionally wish it didn't exist or was a bit more comprehensive. I would just like to see some more viable options and different bonus combinations in the sets to help give other goals to build for. That would also make the system more accessible to newer IO users since influence would be spread across a number of different sets and not just the ones that are more commonly used. Kinetic Combats, for example, are insanely priced on the rare occasions they actually appear on the market.
The AT IO sets that are coming in the future are an interesting expansion of the system, but sadly can't be sold on the market or traded and can only be found in packs bought with Paragon Points. I'm not sure I like that option. Sure, it supports the game - but it sets a dangerous precedent. Will every new IO set be limited in availability to spending actual money? Hopefully not.
One other side note, IIRC the devs have admitted that certain parts of the incarnate trials were actually balanced with IO bonuses in mind. If that's true, then the IO system is not optional.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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That might be because you made a sweepin' generalization about everyone softcappin' defense, then applied that to specific individuals that you probably know nothin' about, to which you admitted to afterwards about your perceptions based on what you see in game, on your server(s).|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
I'm getting a lot of hostility in this thread.
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I actually had a snarky reply in the works in an earlier post about bein' painted with a brush which simply wasn't true, but I instead decided to only reply with an example o' how, without softcap, I was able to customize my character and get the results I specifically wanted with the Invention System.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
Unless something has changed, ATIOs can be traded and sold.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Unless something has changed, ATIOs can be traded and sold.
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That's good news. I could have sworn that when I read the notes from the Pummit it said they could not.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
Per the in-game description in the AH/BM for ATIOs: "Account Bound: This enhancement can only traded to other characters on this account via global mail."
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
That's good news. I could have sworn that when I read the notes from the Pummit it said they could not. |
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
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Ok, so I'm not completely stupid. Well, I guess if I want them I have to buy those packs with the costume pieces I don't care about |
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
Per the in-game description in the AH/BM for ATIOs: "Account Bound: This enhancement can only traded to other characters on this account via global mail."
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@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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Backing this up... |
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
For my Ice/Nrg Blaster's Hami Build, I slotted for Lockdowns w/ chance for Hold in my two holds, and then Devastations with the chance for Hold to help with greens while still bein' able to deal solid single target for the blues. Without the Invention system IOs, I wouldn't have been able to do that in the very specific way that I wanted. This allowed me and a group o' friends to do a 16 man Hami Raid last year.
Which had nothin' to do with softcapped defenses. |
Airhammer my First ever character is an NRG/NRG blaster that has absolutely ZERO defense in his build.. None.. Zilch... Zippo.. No S/L defense, No ranged defense..
He is build as Air Hover blaster. he has 4 Devastation IO's and Two Damage Range IO's in every single target attack. He has three damage Range Hami's in Power Push He also has Boost Range pretty Perma..
He can pretty much outdistance most enemies. He attacks from a distance.. thats how he is built..
I wouldnt worry about how everyone builds their character.. as long as YOU enjoy your character.. thats all that matters..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Sometimes, yes.|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
Anyone else wish IOs never happened?
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While they're nice on their own, it definitely created a culture of have/have-not that wasn't present in the game beforehand, and I've been criticized and even passed-over for events due to having sub-optimal builds. I currently have a Fire/Kin 'Troller that I'm trying to Incarnate out, and I've received tells that I "should really work on my slotting first" since he's only using SOs and common IOs.
And then there's my Kat/SR Scrapper, my main character, who wasn't softcapped until just a few months ago. He got no end of flack for his build, as I built for concept instead of game mechanics.
But excluding the people who complain about that sort of thing, there's no arguing that properly using Invention Sets can give a huge bonus to our super-powered heroes and villains. I absolutely wouldn't wish them away now, just like I wouldn't wish away our Incarnate abilities.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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IOs added so much to this game, and so much customization to your characters. As others have said I would have quit long ago if we were still running on SOs/HOs.
However with that said, I really wish the game would have kept pace with the power that IOs gave you. With IOs the game became disgustingly easier (than it already was) and the developers basically did nothing to increase the difficulty of the game to match a fully IO'd character's capabilities.
No one has to have IOs. No one wants other people to decide for them that its a bad thing. People used to complain about the lack of crafting, end game content, to solve that ED came along then IOs and IO sets came along. As much as people might of complained about or left over ED the mistake was in the very beginning, so long before IOs and IO sets were concieved. ED should of existed from the start.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I like the way you think.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Backing this up...
Airhammer my First ever character is an NRG/NRG blaster that has absolutely ZERO defense in his build.. None.. Zilch... Zippo.. No S/L defense, No ranged defense.. He is build as Air Hover blaster. he has 4 Devastation IO's and Two Damage Range IO's in every single target attack. He has three damage Range Hami's in Power Push He also has Boost Range pretty Perma.. He can pretty much outdistance most enemies. He attacks from a distance.. thats how he is built.. I wouldnt worry about how everyone builds their character.. as long as YOU enjoy your character.. thats all that matters.. |
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
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Is the bold part really fair? I mean they did allow for people to fight +4X8 solo with Bosses and AV's without pads. Maybe not enough granted but they have tried to do "something".|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
IOs added so much to this game, and so much customization to your characters. As others have said I would have quit long ago if we were still running on SOs/HOs.
However with that said, I really wish the game would have kept pace with the power that IOs gave you. With IOs the game became disgustingly easier (than it already was) and the developers basically did nothing to increase the difficulty of the game to match a fully IO'd character's capabilities. |
What would like to see in the game in terms of more difficult content?
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Personally i prefer IOs to the Incarnate system. Especially since i spend at least half my time playing at levels that are nowhere near 50.|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
I understand the argument that goals are a benefit IOs give. However, had the incarnate system been released instead you would have had long term goals anyway. Regardless, IOs need more trade offs in the set bonuses. The fact that it's possible to build up 25% or so defense without even trying and get some decent bonuses on the side is pretty crazy. Especially since combat works the way it does.
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Even then i rarely focus directly on building up defense bonuses on most alts for most of their lifetime. i tend not to play at high difficulty settings, so inspiration drops are generally enough to keep me rolling on purple power. Early on most of my set bonuses are a mix of +max end and +rec to reduce downtime. My ranged/control characters will tend to slot a few sets for ranged defense bonuses, but for the majority of a character's career defense bonuses are a secondary goal that doesn't get finished until the alt hits 50. It's not even that i can't afford to buy the sets outright, but it's more fun for me to gradually work up to godlike power levels while focusing mostly on having fun in the missions.
i have quite a few alts who have nothing but SOs and some generic IOs because they function just fine with nothing but those.
i also have a few alts who are IOed to the gills and so far past the defense softcap that they can barely see it anymore and will tear through enemy groups like a polar bear in a puppy farm.
But that doesn't really matter overall.
Most of my in game friends are at the level of player skill and good humor that the presence or absence of IOs is a non issue. Then again, even the AT a teammate brings generally isn't an issue...
"What should i bring?"
"Anything over [the minimum level of the SF/TF/Trial]."
...
"Running level 52 hero tips in PI."
"I'm playing my 23 lowbie. That okay?"
"Sure. Head to PI."
Oh, i agree that set bonuses could be better balanced, but like many people i like the flexibility it adds. i can make almost any character much more survivable or build to support unusual play strategies. Like making a Dual Pistols/Time into a melee-centric scrapper wannabe. i probably wouldn't still be playing of the game wasn't so flexible and diverse with regards to style, both in costumes and gameplay.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Character customisation for me is just crucial. Without IOs I doubt I'd be playing nowadays. The old limited choice powersets + SO's/HO's was very, very restricting. Sure, for the most part now people just select their optimal mix of defence/recharge but the powers & slotting is much more involved.
My only criticism is that there is a distinct of lack viable choices in IOs. There's only really defence & recharge. Yes you can get some neat health bonuses and a few bits and pieces here and there but it's uncommon to build for that instead of the choices that gives the biggest return. I'd love to see Regen & Resistance given some love (the bonuses are trivial). Perhaps making them largely mutually exclusive to defence/recharge would help in balancing, but for now I am guessing that's just a dream and never going to be a reality.
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I missed this. Where was this said?|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
One other side note, IIRC the devs have admitted that certain parts of the incarnate trials were actually balanced with IO bonuses in mind. If that's true, then the IO system is not optional.
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Edit: By the way, the devs balance lots of things with IOs in mind. There's a difference in setting the balance point to assume IOs and to consider what someone with IOs might be able to do in the content.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Fun historical tidbit. Accuracy bonuses from IOs were nerfed, while defence bonuses from IOs were buffed.
I don't wish that they never happened, but I wish there was more focus on Procs and that global bonuses were far more limited (for instance, having a cap of 15% or so on Defense bonuses, and similar caps on Recharge/Accuracy/Etc.).
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have lasted much longer in the City than it took for IOs to come out before quitting forever if they hadn't.
CoV had its moments for me (One of my original villains is still my favorite character), but it wasn't really the breath of new life I was hoping for from the game, and coming along with ED, it really watered character power down a tremendous amount. I was getting bored.
IOs gave CoH a level of depth and complexity that, I think, it badly needed to sustain long-term interest.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Love IOs!
I do wish devs would go back and look at the other sets to make them more tempting to the player base however. If that was done, and allowing for multiple ways to achieve the same goals as everyone does now, I think it would go a long way in people using different sets and making them cheaper.
Adding a bit more to the +Resist side and +DMG side would be nice as well.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
General points I wanted to add:
I agree with the opinion that the design of Incarnate powers and their acquisition to be less interesting and more restrictive than the IO system. I would have much preferred having way to earn the powers, increase their slots, and use special Incarnate recipes with Incarnate sets to increase their effectiveness instead of the way we climb the effectiveness ladder currently.
I agree with the opinion that the same sets get used over and over. I'd like to see some new sets introduced.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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I think adding +Resist would be a mistake. In order for the game to be challenging, the game has to provide stress moments where player decision is meaningful. With high defense, and even capped defense, there is still a chance that powerful foes can get lucky and hit you twice in a row to provide that stress moment. Defense is spikey, and that forces players to react to changes in damage due to luck.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Adding a bit more to the +Resist side and +DMG side would be nice as well.
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Resistance, on the other hand, provides predictable and steady damage reduction. It is much easier to play a character with high resistance and much harder for the game to provide those stress moments. For these reasons I think gaining Resistance has to be harder than gaining defense.
In addition, at this point the devs have provided most powerful enemy groups with powers and debuff that counter soft capped defense. It would be much harder to do the same for high resistance characters.
As for +DMG, as long as there are sets and archetypes with damage dilution this mechanic won't work since it's effectiveness varies so wildly in the hands of various archetypes and sets.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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From what's been discussed, the intention is that they will be able to be traded on the Auction House, to compensate for the random delivery system of the "Super Packs". There has been some vocal negative feedback to the Super Pack concept, so it's possible things may change, but they seem likely to proceed as something planned for some time now.|
Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean
Per the in-game description in the AH/BM for ATIOs: "Account Bound: This enhancement can only traded to other characters on this account via global mail."
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I don't think it's a good idea, personally, for reasons that aren't game/AT balance-related.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Reinforcing this, there is no direct mechanical equivalent to defense debuffs or mobs having +toHit in the resistance realm. It's easy for the devs to counter players with +defense. They have fewer tools that behave less dramatically to counter +resist.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I think adding +Resist would be a mistake. In order for the game to be challenging, the game has to provide stress moments where player decision is meaningful. With high defense, and even capped defense, there is still a chance that powerful foes can get lucky and hit you twice in a row to provide that stress moment. Defense is spikey, and that forces players to react to changes in damage due to luck.
Resistance, on the other hand, provides predictable and steady damage reduction. It is much easier to play a character with high resistance and much harder for the game to provide those stress moments. For these reasons I think gaining Resistance has to be harder than gaining defense. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think an issue to consider with resistance vs defence in IO sets is just exactly how much resistance you think they should give. Right now you can soft cap from basically 0 defence with IO sets only.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Reinforcing this, there is no direct mechanical equivalent to defense debuffs or mobs having +toHit in the resistance realm. It's easy for the devs to counter players with +defense. They have fewer tools that behave less dramatically to counter +resist.
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I wouldn't mind seeing 10-20% resistance being readily obtainable vs a few different types of damage types through sets. I wouldn't like to see 40%+ just being given out freely. This 'small' amount of 10-20% would let tanks like Willpower and Brutes such as Inv hit the cap. Making it mutually exclusive to the defence sets, as a substitute instead of compliment, would go a long way to keeping balance.
I do agree that it is less easily countered, but I am not talking about going from nothing to a cap from IO set bonuses alone. Defence does set this rather extreme precedent that I don't advocate for resistance.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer