Anyone else wish IOs never happened?

dugfromthearth · 12-01-2011 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

I remember it somewhat differently. It was almost always asking if you would fill for PLs on that one portal mission with all the Freakshow. I don't recall ever being asked to fill for normal door missions.

I don't know where the missions were. I could be a level 1 in Atlas Park and get requests to fill until a mission started.

UberGuy · 12-01-2011 04:09 PM

I wouldn't be playing without them. Not specifically because they're overpowered (and they are, but that's not as big a deal in this game as in most), but because they gave me long term goals to play for.

And those of you who think the iTrials wouldn't be full of autohit stuff without IOs seem to have forgotten what it's like to play on a team with plenty of buffers. 100%+ defense happens plenty without IOs with the right powersets along. If you think the AVs designed to face down 24 players wouldn't have stuff like that, you're kidding yourselves.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Dr Harmony · 12-01-2011 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

The other thing that irritates me about the IO system is that everyone appears to believe it's optional. It isn't. Enemies may be balanced around SOs, but a major percentage of players have IOs. A character on SOs is markedly less effective at tank-maging their way through spawns than a character on IOs. Which means, if you want to compete in terms of survival and kill speed with other players, you have to use IOs.

Wasn't this always the case?
If you sidekick into a team, and they all have Tier 9 powers and you don't, you're Robin fighting with the JLA. If someone had a better constructed build than you (on SO's) or was a better player, then they'd be a more effective teammate.
Sometimes in the SO game you'd be a bit obsolete just by luck, like a Force Field Defender on a team of tankers and scrappers.
Some powersets were sup-optimal, but people played them.

But in none of these cases (or as an SO character today) are you useless. You're just not the Superman of your team, you're more Aquaman or Green Arrow, who still have their role in superheroics. IOs are not optional if you want to be the absolute best and most powerful character on the team.But so were good builds, SOs, being level 50 back in the old days.

I also have some definitely sub-par characters who I play, by the way, when I'm not wowing the masses of atlas with my extrme pyrotechnics. Its part of their story, and I enjoy that.

Hyperstrike · 12-01-2011 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

I love the benefits of IOs as much as the next guy, and I use them on all my characters. However, they sure do make a lot of powers and ATs feel broken or obsolete. Part of me wishes that the invention system was only ever crafting temp powers. I love using craftable temps on my characters, and would love it even more if there were more options. Keep in mind, I'm in no way advocating that IOs be removed or anything like that. They've been around far too long to go back now. I was just wondering if anyone else ever longed for the good old days when teams ran around more often because it meant something more than "those people I need to start the TF".

*Hyperstrike the Tank shrugs off a dogpile of 70,000 Arachnos soldiers like a heavy blanker, turns around and asks you to state the question again.*

What? No! I like my IOs just fine!

*FOOTSTOMP!*

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

UberGuy · 12-01-2011 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

A lot of people are saying that without IOs they would have quit the game. I have a hard time seeing why unless all you ever do is craft IOs. Nothing else changed when they put IOs in. I would have much rather seen us getting new powersets and content at the speed we do now than see IOs introduced back then.

Goals. Level 50 is a trivial goal. For someone like me who enjoys playing existing characters more than making new ones, not having a goal is a problem. I need a reason to play my characters. Chasing IOs gave me staged goals, ranging from the short-term of frankenslotting to the long-term of tricked out AV soloing, +4/x8-vs-lots-of-factions gosh darn supah heroes. I don't try to go from zero to hero with IOs any more than I try to go from 1 to 50 in a day. I'm here to play the game. Goals keep me interested.

Quote:

The other thing that irritates me about the IO system is that everyone appears to believe it's optional. It isn't. Enemies may be balanced around SOs, but a major percentage of players have IOs. A character on SOs is markedly less effective at tank-maging their way through spawns than a character on IOs. Which means, if you want to compete in terms of survival and kill speed with other players, you have to use IOs.

Who the hell is competing? I'm sure as hell not. On iTrials, team buffs and Incarnate powers swamp the contribution of IOs. Where IOs matter most is when you want to run off and solo crazy stuff. To a lesser extent, they let teams do crazy stuff with less stacked buffs. Who's having a competition?

If you're talking PvP, sure, you might have a point. PvP here is an unmitigated disaster, IMO, so the degree to which IOs mess it up is lost in the noise is far as I can tell.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Airhammer · 12-01-2011 04:19 PM

The short answer.. NO...

Im glad that IO's exist.

They have allowed to to build several characters exactly as I imagined them when I created them.

They have allowed to to regain pre ED status on several toons.

They have allowed me to be creative with slotting.

They have allowed me to push the envelope on some toons.

I love IO's.

And I dont care about anyone elses build. i dont care about keeping up with other people. I care about whether I am having fun doing what I am doing. Even with IO's I still might not have the "optimal" build according to some..

but it works for me.. and thats all that matters.

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

Airhammer · 12-01-2011 04:22 PM

The IO system is entirely optional. You dont NEED IO's to play the game. In fact most of my signature characters did not get IO's until THIS year and they were plenty playable.

My rad/rad defender was still on SO's as of last year..

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

Adeon Hawkwood · 12-01-2011 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwloose

It does have some downsides in that it is more complicated than more traditional Equipment based systems that I have seen. Providing more choice for players means furious debate between players about what you MUST have. The system can seem random and unfriendly to those who are unwilling to throw themselves on the wine dark sea of the Auction House.

See to me that's the big advantage. A lot of equipment based systems have, basically, one "ideal" build for each spec. Our IO system gives a lot more flexibility to emphasize different things depending on your preferences.

Moonlighter · 12-01-2011 04:44 PM

Without IOs I would have quit the game years ago.

IOs are the best endgame system of any game I play.

(I would have liked to see the endgame expand upon it; the with endgame powers slottable with additional sets.)

Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563

Cobalt Azurean · 12-01-2011 04:44 PM

To the OP:

In my personal opinion; No.

This game hangs it's hat on customization. Invention Origins and their subsequent set bonuses allow me to have my character perform the way I wish it to.

"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer

Vauluur · 12-01-2011 04:50 PM

I understand the argument that goals are a benefit IOs give. However, had the incarnate system been released instead you would have had long term goals anyway. Regardless, IOs need more trade offs in the set bonuses. The fact that it's possible to build up 25% or so defense without even trying and get some decent bonuses on the side is pretty crazy. Especially since combat works the way it does.

@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian

Vauluur · 12-01-2011 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt Azurean

To the OP:

In my personal opinion; No.

This game hangs it's hat on customization. Invention Origins and their subsequent set bonuses allow me to have my character perform the way I wish it to.

But how custom is that when your character and everyone else's is performing the same way, with softcapped defense being the main goal most players use for set bonuses?

@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian

Mr. DJ · 12-01-2011 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

But how custom is that when your character and everyone else's is performing the same way, with softcapped defense being the main goal most players use for set bonuses?

you keep using that word...

while soft capped defense is nice, people slot for other things, like recharge, hp, regen and recovery

Dr Harmony · 12-01-2011 05:03 PM

I do agree that the IO system could use more genuine choices. The effectiveness of different bonus types seems to be way off.

Currently, the big two are Defence and Recharge - they can transform a character.

Accuracy, Recovery, Hit Points and Regen for sturdier melee-ers, these are not bad, sort of quality of life enhancers.

Other bonuses tend to be negligible. For example, my Stalker has accumulated +Damage in set bonuses using over ten high quality sets, and to be honest I haven't really noticed the difference.

My main criticism would be that I tend to use the same sets again and again. The only non-obvious choices I ever seem to make are Defence vs Recharge: Kinetic Combat vs Crushing Impact, and Thunderstrike vs Decimation. Except for that Stalker. If I'd accumulated twice the damage bonus I'd , I'd maybe go that route again on other characters.

Screwloose · 12-01-2011 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood

See to me that's the big advantage. A lot of equipment based systems have, basically, one "ideal" build for each spec. Our IO system gives a lot more flexibility to emphasize different things depending on your preferences.

I dont disagree. For a lot of players the flexibility provided by the complexity of IO system is a big plus.

But for some players it can be a downside as well.

Some players struggle to see where they are supposed to be going and how they are supposed to get there.
For players who have to be within 0.001% of peak performance it can provide too many options.
For players who want to be self sufficient the large range of drops can make it seem difficult to collect all the parts of a Set.

Overall I am still impressed with the way that the design of CoH/V game functions cater to such a wide range of play styles and player viewpoints, but in doing so they also provide some potholes for players to navigate and they create an environment where players can be confronted by other players with significant and disturbingly different visions of the nature of their shared activity.

Regards, Screwloose
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Adeon Hawkwood · 12-01-2011 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwloose

But for some players it can be a downside as well.

Some players struggle to see where they are supposed to be going and how they are supposed to get there.
For players who have to be within 0.001% of peak performance it can provide too many options.
For players who want to be self sufficient the large range of drops can make it seem difficult to collect all the parts of a Set.

Well, I would say that if someone really, really wants to be in the top 0.001% of peak performance then they will do the work to figure out the best IO combination and the extra flexibility makes finding that peak a lot more satisfying.

However I do agree that for a new person the sheer complexity can be a bit overwhelming. I know I've seen planty of poorly thought out builds posted on the forums (and made a few myself when I was first learning the system).

Talen Lee · 12-01-2011 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

However, they sure do make a lot of powers and ATs feel broken or obsolete.

All in your head, sparky. Worry a bit less.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

Vauluur · 12-01-2011 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

you keep using that word...

while soft capped defense is nice, people slot for other things, like recharge, hp, regen and recovery

See below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Harmony

I do agree that the IO system could use more genuine choices. The effectiveness of different bonus types seems to be way off.

Currently, the big two are Defence and Recharge - they can transform a character.

Accuracy, Recovery, Hit Points and Regen for sturdier melee-ers, these are not bad, sort of quality of life enhancers.

Other bonuses tend to be negligible. For example, my Stalker has accumulated +Damage in set bonuses using over ten high quality sets, and to be honest I haven't really noticed the difference.

My main criticism would be that I tend to use the same sets again and again. The only non-obvious choices I ever seem to make are Defence vs Recharge: Kinetic Combat vs Crushing Impact, and Thunderstrike vs Decimation. Except for that Stalker. If I'd accumulated twice the damage bonus I'd , I'd maybe go that route again on other characters.

@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian

Mr. DJ · 12-01-2011 05:40 PM

Kinetic Combat vs. Crushing Impact, Touch of Death and to a lesser extent, Mako's Bite and Smashing Haymaker.

He has more of a case for ranged attacks.

On the less typical build, my Fire Tank is built for recharge and recovery/+end.

RaikenX · 12-01-2011 06:18 PM

I've just recently started to try and learn some of the in's and out's of the IO system. My first, and largely accidental, success was a stone/wp brute that was my first toon ever that solo'd a x8 map.

My next serious project, and probably something a bit out of the norm, is to IO out my StJ/WP toon with as much +regen as i can muster. By the build i (tentatively) have worked out on mids...before incarnates, 731% regen and 803% afterwards with 257% recovery and 161.9% HP. I have no idea how well this is gonna work...but i'm interested in finding out.

EDIT:

However! Even tho I generally don't see the intro of IO's as a bad thing, it can give the occasional elitist a**hole something to be.......elitist and.....a**hole-y about. (see the first part of the second quote in my sig)

RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.

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UberGuy · 12-01-2011 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

I understand the argument that goals are a benefit IOs give. However, had the incarnate system been released instead you would have had long term goals anyway.

I am finding the Incarnate system's goals far shorter, more immediate, and honestly, less flexible than the IO system's.

Quote:

Regardless, IOs need more trade offs in the set bonuses.

Why?

Quote:

The fact that it's possible to build up 25% or so defense without even trying and get some decent bonuses on the side is pretty crazy. Especially since combat works the way it does.

Please show me where you can do that with IOs only. You can not readily get 25% defense in set bonuses only in the general case. If you want to do that you do make tradeoffs - you have to take powers (usually pool powers) to supplement them.

The notion that you should have to decide between one kind of bonus and another is one way to build such a system, but I'm not at all sure it's an unambiguously better way. The reasons you think it's better seem to be because you have a pretty clearly view this game as either a competition or a race. I don't view it that way at all. I love achieving what IOs let me achieve for the mere sake of having it to run rampant with.

Being able to do that sort of thing was what got me to fall in love with this game when it came out, but with IOs, it's far more equal in terms of what characters can do it. It's not just Fire tanks or what have you that can go nuts, and I think that's great.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

UberGuy · 12-01-2011 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

See below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Harmony

Other bonuses tend to be negligible. For example, my Stalker has accumulated +Damage in set bonuses using over ten high quality sets, and to be honest I haven't really noticed the difference.

While there are examples of this, this one isn't well argued. I have a number of characters with around +20% damage, and I certainly notice that. I should point out that this is about what you get out of Rare Core Musculature if you're already ED slotted, and I know people who swear by that. So I don't exactly buy this particular example.

Resistance would be a much better argument, but frankly unless the devs do something dramatic to combine damage typed resistances in sets, positional defense will be much easier to slot for. This is not a set design issue, this is a game mechanics issue. So to with stacking of both defense and resistance. People choose defense not just because it's easy to find, but because of how stacking works.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Airhammer · 12-01-2011 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

But how custom is that when your character and everyone else's is performing the same way, with softcapped defense being the main goal most players use for set bonuses?

This is your assumption. Everyone does not build for softcapped defense.

I have THREE toons out of the 40ish I have that are not Tanks or Brutes that have softcapped defense. Even some of my Tanks dont have it.

Also I believe you are also assuming that everyone that is using IO's are min/max types that have Mids calculations and spreadsheets everywhere and nothing could be further from the truth..

Remember the people in the forums do not represent the majority of players.

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

Cobalt Azurean · 12-01-2011 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vauluur

But how custom is that when your character and everyone else's is performing the same way, with softcapped defense being the main goal most players use for set bonuses?

For my Ice/Nrg Blaster's Hami Build, I slotted for Lockdowns w/ chance for Hold in my two holds, and then Devastations with the chance for Hold to help with greens while still bein' able to deal solid single target for the blues. Without the Invention system IOs, I wouldn't have been able to do that in the very specific way that I wanted. This allowed me and a group o' friends to do a 16 man Hami Raid last year.

Which had nothin' to do with softcapped defenses.

"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer

UberGuy · 12-01-2011 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airhammer

This is your assumption. Everyone does not build for softcapped defense.

I have THREE toons out of the 40ish I have that are not Tanks or Brutes that have softcapped defense. Even some of my Tanks dont have it.

Actually, it's a good point, because I didn't even go there in this discussion, and I don't even always build for the softcap. I have four Dark Miasma characters that have defense in the low-to-mid 20s, but lots of +recharge. As a result, sure, I can't always solo certain things like GMs or something, but I can most of the major things a Dark Miasma can do much, much faster.

Now, to be fair, it was mentioned that +defense and +recharge are the two main things people go for. I would argue +recovery belongs ranked pretty highly too. But again I think that's because of how the game overall benefits from those things, not (just) because they are prevalent.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA