Every time you ask for Illusions, the devs postpone releasing it for another two months.
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I don't know but I'm rather tired of waiting; I expected it to be proliferated long ago. Especially since it's such an obvious and long desired target for proliferation.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Why isn't Illusion Control a dominator primary already?
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
Every time you ask for Illusions, the devs postpone releasing it for another two months.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Pants.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Ok, so we're getting Dark Control and that's supposedly not in place of Illusion. It's also supposedly the 'special' set doms were getting that prevented anything new from being released to them with I21.
If that's the case, then why hasn't Illusion Control been proliferated to dominators yet? |
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| If it's going to be, then isn't it time already? |
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| If it's going to be changed, then shouldn't the devs say so? |
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| If it's not going to be ported, then shouldn't the devs say so? |
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| What's the holdup? |
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| What's the secret? |
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| Why isn't Illusion Control a dominator primary already? |
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It's no use, it's pants all the way down except for where it's Troy Hickman; which, as everyone knows, means no pants.
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i make stuff...
Could be they're still trying to stick to the design philosophy of giving ATs a unique power set.
Could also be it's hard balancing Illusion for Dominators and having to figure in another AT that can bust out Perma-Phantom Army (Since its not much for Doms to go perma-dom). Devs have said it's hard to balance invincible pets.
Also pants.
I have no idea what all the jokes about pants are supposed to mean.
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I don't think so (and certainly hope not), they've said that they intend to proliferate everything reasonable.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Could be they're still trying to stick to the design philosophy of giving ATs a unique power set.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Could also be it's hard balancing Illusion for Dominators and having to figure in another AT that can bust out Perma-Phantom Army (Since its not much for Doms to go perma-dom). Devs have said it's hard to balance invincible pets.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Probably because the devs know just like the players who want Illusion on Doms so badly how ridiculously overpowered such a set would be.
Illusion/Rad controllers can already solo giant monsters and AV's pretty easily.
Now you are going to give Illusion to a AT that has better holds, mez protection, huge end recovery and an assault secondary?
I think if they ported Illusion over that they would make changes ( I think they would make the pets killable ) and everyone would be ticked.
I would much rather have something NEW and UNIQUE to dominators. Let controllers keep illusion.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Devs are on record:
- Everything that can reasonably be proliferated, will be.
- Sets easiest to port will be ported first.
- Sets that require changes in powers and animations really isn't proliferation and is just about as much work as a brand new set, and given the choice between more of the same and something new, they'll go with something new.
So... this tells me that Dominator Illusion will require some significant changes (most likely for the reasons Airhammer gives above). This moves it to the bottom of the list for proliferation.
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Except Ill/Rad is so powerful because of the debuffs. Dominators don't get those debuffs. Other sets like Mind and Plant trounce Illusion in terms of mez-ability. Sure, Assault means you can do more damage but if you count it solely based on that then they outclass Controllers.
What are the common Illusion secondaries?
Cold Domination
Radiation Emission
Time Manipulation
Sonic Resonance
Trick Arrow
Storm Summoning
Why?
Because they either give -Resistance debuffs which enables PA to do more damage or they fill in the weakness of Illusion - a lack of control. Dominators don't get any of these options until Ancillaries where everything is just overpowered anyway.
I personally want Illusion because of how the set doesn't get neutered by Purple Triangles.
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Illusion/rad solos them so easily because of the perma unkillable agro holding pets. Debuffs just make it go smoothly. The secondaries are there because as you said, PA can't be buffed, so why pair it with a buffing set rather than a debuffing one? Doms don't get those debuffs but they get crazy high PDS attack chains, and that will combine with pets to be a lot more than what the debuffs would add.
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
Except Ill/Rad is so powerful because of the debuffs. Dominators don't get those debuffs. Other sets like Mind and Plant trounce Illusion in terms of mez-ability. Sure, Assault means you can do more damage but if you count it solely based on that then they outclass Controllers.
What are the common Illusion secondaries? Cold Domination Radiation Emission Time Manipulation Sonic Resonance Trick Arrow Storm Summoning Why? Because they either give -Resistance debuffs which enables PA to do more damage or they fill in the weakness of Illusion - a lack of control. Dominators don't get any of these options until Ancillaries where everything is just overpowered anyway. I personally want Illusion because of how the set doesn't get neutered by Purple Triangles. |
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The reason Illusion is "overpowered" on Controllers is because they have a buffing secondary. Illusion on Doms would be nowhere near as powerful as on Controllers, so I don't buy the "it's too strong" argument.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Probably because the devs know just like the players who want Illusion on Doms so badly how ridiculously overpowered such a set would be.
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My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Just remember that Controls and Masterminds ( LOL* ) are VIP only. I would imagine they need something to entice people to be a VIP. Having untouchable perma pets that can tank a AV or GM is a good thing.
* I lol'ed at Masterminds because beyond looks many non VIP AT's can do what MM can do with less hassle and bugs. EG Traps Defender can do what a Robot Traps MM can do.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
If dark control/assault are truly the 'special stuff' we were waiting for, then that explanation for why we didn't get any proliferation becomes even more stupid.
By the devs' own example, having multiple *new* sets in the works is no barrier to *other* ATs getting proliferations. See street justice, staff fighting, titan weapons, time manipulation, and beam rifle and the blaster (dark/, /dark), controller (poison), defender (therm, fire), scrapper (BA, WM, EA), tanker (SR, MA), brute (kat, BS, regen), corruptor (psi, poison,), mastermind(sonic), and stalker (/ice) archetypes.
*Every other base AT* got proliferations despite *also* gaining access to one or more brand new sets recently. Not to mention that the new dark control type stuff also gives *controllers* dark/ and /dark - if that was enough to prevent doms from getting anything, why did *controllers* still get proliferations?
The devs need to stop being coy with us. Either tell us what the special stuff we're supposed to be waiting for *actually* is (because dark/dark are nice, but shouldn't qualify), or just come out and admit that they're not going to port illusion, and why.
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Sorry, but the comment about debuffs not being very important is, quite frankly, silly as all heck. The wiki doesn't seem to have the info on giant monster, for example, HP, but it does for archvillains. A level 50 AV has 28,271.7 HP and regens 5% every 15 seconds, for a HP regeneration rate of 94.3 HP/s. They resist -regen debuffs by close to 90%, but since most of the really big -regen powers are -500% or so, they're still debuffing by ~65%, accounting for 60+ DPS from regeneration debuffs alone (or the full value for traps and its -1000% regen poison trap, once controllers get that). A giant monster has significantly more HP and regens faster to boot; strong regeneration debuffs are going to be accounting for hundreds of DPS. I wasn't able to track down exact numbers, but regen numbers north of 300 hp/s were being thrown around in one thread I saw for *monster*, not even GM, class entities, which sounds about right - if GMs had merely 3 times the health they'd regen over 400 hp/s, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had more than that.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Illusion/rad solos them so easily because of the perma unkillable agro holding pets. Debuffs just make it go smoothly. The secondaries are there because as you said, PA can't be buffed, so why pair it with a buffing set rather than a debuffing one? Doms don't get those debuffs but they get crazy high PDS attack chains, and that will combine with pets to be a lot more than what the debuffs would add.
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Combine that with resistance debuffs, which are straight multiplicative bonuses to not only your own personal damage but the damage of phantom army and phantasm, and debuffs are going to be what's accounting for the majority of a controller's damage against AVs and especially GMs.
Debuffs don't merely make it go more smoothly, they're essential for making it possible at all (ignoring incarnate stuff since that's equally broken for everyone). Don't get me wrong, the aggro holding perma-PA is definitely essential as well, but the debuffs are hardly a sideshow. Unless your dom can maintain a significantly more than 400 DPS attack chain indefinitely, you're still going to solo a GM slower than a controller.
Not to mention that if you've got perma-PA levels of recharge, a dom can just hold the stupid AV through the purple triangles *anyway*! Sure, it requires one of the sets with a fast-activating hold, but there are still a couple of those already, plus some primaries or secondaries with extra hold potential. Doms can *already* mimic the AV-mitigating effect of perma-PA. We can't do that for a GM, but barring -regen a dom is going to have a hard time taking one down anyway so it hardly matters. Bottom line, if holding an AV through the purple triangles on a mind or fire permadom isn't overpowered, than neither would be holding an AV's aggro with perma-PA on a illusion permadom.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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I was actually going to argue that its too weak for Doms.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
The reason Illusion is "overpowered" on Controllers is because they have a buffing secondary. Illusion on Doms would be nowhere near as powerful as on Controllers, so I don't buy the "it's too strong" argument.
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Not much in illusion benefits from domination.
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I've become convinced that Synapse thinks it's both too strong (for vet min-maxers) and too weak (for most players). Which makes the set a big pain in the butt. If you buff it for the majority, you risk creating a true monster for skilled players. If you leave it alone or worse nerf it for Doms like Psi Blast for Blasters, you risk creating a set no one but concept players will use.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I was actually going to argue that its too weak for Doms.
Not much in illusion benefits from domination. |
The answer is to change one or more powers (like PA) for the Dom port, but in a way that won't overtly look like a nerf. But since folks like me want Illusion, not some bastardized version of it, I'm not sure how well that would be received. They already went down that road with pain domination.
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(Emphasis mine) This. A Zillion times this.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Possible; it would be nice if they actually said so.
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The hardest part is waiting and wondering while people fight over why we are waiting.
I personally believe it is because the developers think (incorrectly, on my opinion) it will be overpowered because of the example Controllers have set with it.
It would be great if they gave us a check list of all the remaining power sets that need to be proliferated with their thoughts behind them. (I'm waiting for Empathy for my Masterminds myself.)
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We're a minority of a minority. The reason we haven't gotten illusion is because even the effort of porting it isn't enough of a return-on-investment to bother with unless it's part of something else that's meant to look even.
They experimented with completely ignoring us in I21 and from what I can tell, they realise it worked out just fine for them.
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This has nothing to do with it.. Phantom Army is immune to being buffed.. |
Originally Posted by Daemodand
The reason Illusion is "overpowered" on Controllers is because they have a buffing secondary. Illusion on Doms would be nowhere near as powerful as on Controllers, so I don't buy the "it's too strong" argument.
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However a Perma PA pet army with a Phantom that also casts a decoy Phantom with a Spectral Terror that casts fears on mobs and the ability to Deceive a powerful LT or Minion in one application..
WHILE allowing the Dominator to liberally toss around their attacks with little to no fear of drawing any aggro and no threat whatsoever of being mezzed with Permadom makes a very very strong case for being overpowered...
And I love dominators.. I just know what I could so with an Illusion themed Dom QUITE easily knowing what I can already do with an Illusion/Rad quite easily.. The Dom IMO would overpowered which is why I believe we havent seen one yet and if we did I suspect it would not be the version that everyone wants..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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They probably meant that the debuffs end up fulfilling the same purpose as buffs.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
This has nothing to do with it.. Phantom Army is immune to being buffed..
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I'm pretty sure he was referring to the general type of secondary (i.e. buff/debuff), given that the distinction between buffs and debuffs has already been brought up at least once. Regardless, it's a really significant difference.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
This has nothing to do with it.. Phantom Army is immune to being buffed..
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However a Perma PA pet army with a Phantom that also casts a decoy Phantom with a Spectral Terror that casts fears on mobs and the ability to Deceive a powerful LT or Minion in one application.. WHILE allowing the Dominator to liberally toss around their attacks with little to no fear of drawing any aggro and no threat whatsoever of being mezzed with Permadom makes a very very strong case for being overpowered... |
The only real difference is that the illusion dom's 'regular' control also works on PToD bosses. However, that's rendered moot by the fact that a perma fire or mind dom's regular control *also* works on PToD bosses. Again, if a mind permadom perma-confusing or permaholding members of the freedom phalanx in the LRSF isn't overpowered, than neither is an illusion permadom.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Illusion on a Dom is lame. It is something which functions way way better on a controller. If it does not ever make it to Dom's I will be at ease, and I do have to side with Devs to hold this up for Dom. Illusion is not a set which benefits significantly from Domination compared to other sets, or, not even compared.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Ok, so we're getting Dark Control and that's supposedly not in place of Illusion. It's also supposedly the 'special' set doms were getting that prevented anything new from being released to them with I21.
If that's the case, then why hasn't Illusion Control been proliferated to dominators yet? If it's going to be, then isn't it time already? If it's going to be changed, then shouldn't the devs say so? If it's not going to be ported, then shouldn't the devs say so? What's the holdup? What's the secret? Why isn't Illusion Control a dominator primary already? |
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Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
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The simple answer for me.. Phantom Army does damage.. holds aggro.. and is unkillable.. Thats the problem...|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the general type of secondary (i.e. buff/debuff), given that the distinction between buffs and debuffs has already been brought up at least once. Regardless, it's a really significant difference.
I have just one question about this scenario - how is it any different from any *other* permadom mezzing everything to kingdom come and ripping them up with impunity? That's what doms are *supposed* to do - tie things up and then beat them mercilessly when they can't respond. Perma just lets them do it more easily and without having to worry about a lucky shot from a mez. The only difference between an illusion dom and a regular one here is that the form of control is slightly different, and actually arguably *inferior* to a traditional control against large numbers of foes. Again, if a *regular* permadom cycling, say, powerboosted total domination and mass confusion for perma mag 6 AoE hard control isn't overpowered, than neither is an illusion permadom. The only real difference is that the illusion dom's 'regular' control also works on PToD bosses. However, that's rendered moot by the fact that a perma fire or mind dom's regular control *also* works on PToD bosses. Again, if a mind permadom perma-confusing or permaholding members of the freedom phalanx in the LRSF isn't overpowered, than neither is an illusion permadom. |
Again my hope is that the developers look at Dominators and give them something special and unique rather than.. oh well lets just give them Illusion too...
I really dont want to see Illusion dominators.. in fact in my mind it doesnt scream DOMINATION as a set to me..
I dont want to see dominators as the afterthought any longer..
And the devs never said they were proliferating every set...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I think they look at this:
Illusion Powers affected by Domination:
1 single target hold, with splash sleep effect.
1 single target confuse.
1 AoE hold.
The lowest otherwise is 5:
Earth Control powers affected by Domination:
1 single target immobilize
1 single target hold
1 AoE immobilize
1 AoE sleep
1 AoE stun
Electric Control powers affected by Domination:
1 single target immobilize
1 single target hold
1 AoE immobilize
1 AoE hold
1 single target confuse (first target is affected only in chain confuse)
Of course, the issue for me is that the useful powers for something other than a set mule in Earth that are affected are the hold and AoE stun. Every other commonly used power is unaffected. I skip the immobilizes on Dominators since I don't need to set up Containment and otherwise they're really just ways to get a lot of aggro that barely do damage, but I may take them if I have a spare set of Gravitational Anchors laying around.
At least the 3 powers from Illusion are ones that I'd take - meaning that it's the same number as it is for the set they proliferated and the set they created.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Originally Posted by Commando
Illusion on a Dom is lame. It is something which functions way way better on a controller. If it does not ever make it to Dom's I will be at ease, and I do have to side with Devs to hold this up for Dom. Illusion is not a set which benefits significantly from Domination compared to other sets, or, not even compared.
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YMMV.
You could build a quasi-Blaster with Mag 6 hold and aggroless Mag 6 Confuse and built in perma-mezz protection and unkillable, taunting pets.
Illusion Dominators would be powerful as hell built by people who know what they are doing (that is, the same people who make them powerful as hell on a Controller). The only thing they lack is immobilizes to benefit from Domination, a questionable benefit at best. Other than those easily spammable powers they have more Controls that benefit from Domination than Ice or Electric Control do, since in all three cases only the AoE hold receives extra magnitude, and Illusion gets an extra single target power.
Illusion/Fire/Ice, or possible /Fire, would give Illusion/Cold a serious run for its money. I'm fairly sure if it wouldn't always win against AVs specifically, but the sheer DPS would be enough that it would shred lots of other things at a modest tradeoff. It probably wouldn't kill AVs as fast, but it would do it and be a lot better suited to other situations, particularly in the arena of AoE damage.
Minuses for dominators:
- Phantom army cannot be boosted by anything, doms tend to be light on debuffs to compliment them.
- Spectral terror cannot use domination
- Phantasm cannot be boosted, gives no control
- Group invisibility offers nothing more for dominators, superior invis. better for survival. (Superior carries a singular -threat, making the dom lower on the 'hit it' totem pole, and has unsuppressed stealth)
- Spectral wounds adds nothing new for dominators
Plusses:
- Phantom army distracts from dominator
- Phantom army 'illusionary damage' is far more permanent due to dominator high damage contribution
- Superior invisibility offers one of the best invis. powers available, reduces damage taken.
- Spectral wounds, if directly ported, using present values just with dominator mods would give BEASTLY damage.
- Phantasm distracts from dominator, brings secondary damage/distraction.
My guess? The devs want a secondary ST (soft?)control instead of spectral wounds, (I'm thinking fear/damage power) a soft control instead of group invis, (I'm thinking a sleep) and are trying to figure out the army. The high damage of illusion is 'justified' to its illusionary nature and lack of follow-up damage by controllers. Just as much as dominators' general lack of debuffs leave something to be desired in improving army performance, their access to damage blows the 'temporary' highs of illusion damage out of the water. Don't quote me on this, but I can foresee the army becoming more easily permanent, but with FAR faster healback to its damage. To get any of this right is hard- too much control/damage, you make a tank-mage. Too little control/damage you make a worthless survival primary.
It sounds finicky and finicky=time for a set that is for a percent of a percent of players, while larger work on the game needs to be done with the same hours. -And face it, new sets bring more play than a set that's been in the game from the start, so if the old set takes anywhere near the time of a new one, it will probably get put off.
Ok, so we're getting Dark Control and that's supposedly not in place of Illusion. It's also supposedly the 'special' set doms were getting that prevented anything new from being released to them with I21.
If that's the case, then why hasn't Illusion Control been proliferated to dominators yet?
If it's going to be, then isn't it time already?
If it's going to be changed, then shouldn't the devs say so?
If it's not going to be ported, then shouldn't the devs say so?
What's the holdup? What's the secret? Why isn't Illusion Control a dominator primary already?
Please buff Ice Control.