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It's true. It's a corruption of the ancient Babylonian phrase "trooi hicchmahn," which means "your junk is showing."
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
It's no use, it's pants all the way down except for where it's Troy Hickman; which, as everyone knows, means no pants.
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Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I think they look at this:
Illusion Powers affected by Domination: 1 single target hold, with splash sleep effect. 1 single target confuse. 1 AoE hold. The lowest otherwise is 5: Earth Control powers affected by Domination: 1 single target immobilize 1 single target hold 1 AoE immobilize 1 AoE sleep 1 AoE stun Electric Control powers affected by Domination: 1 single target immobilize 1 single target hold 1 AoE immobilize 1 AoE hold 1 single target confuse (first target is affected only in chain confuse) Of course, the issue for me is that the useful powers for something other than a set mule in Earth that are affected are the hold and AoE stun. Every other commonly used power is unaffected. I skip the immobilizes on Dominators since I don't need to set up Containment and otherwise they're really just ways to get a lot of aggro that barely do damage, but I may take them if I have a spare set of Gravitational Anchors laying around. At least the 3 powers from Illusion are ones that I'd take - meaning that it's the same number as it is for the set they proliferated and the set they created. |
Interestingly enough this also applies to Containment, the controller inherant, and also their ability to score a double-mag Overpower affect.
By saying "oh an arbitrary number of powers are not affected by this ATs inherant, the AT should therefore be denied this powerset" when talking about illusion basically means your agruing for it to be taken away from controllers as well.
(and lets be honest here, part of Domination is an End Bar fill... every single power of every single dominator set ultimately gets the benefit from that...)
OK, so thats a fair amount of hyperbole right there, but there are plenty of sets out there that don't benefit from the ATs inherant very well, Defenders are one massive example of this, every one of their primary powers job is to stop the team from getting hurt bar one set, where its more reactive to the hurt, yet their inherant favours that.
Should Defenders not have gotten Thermal because it doesnt sit well with Vigilance?
I dunno, all these "wouldnt be as good on Doms" arguemnts just dont hold strength for not giving the set to them because its not always about playing the best, sometimes its about playing what is fun and Illusion Doms for me would be one of the best bits of fun this game could throw at me right now.
Then all the arguments about it being overpowered, well, is there a chance it can exceed what controllers can already do with it? If controllers can already Solo GMs, the biggest bundles of health this game has to offer, and the only real top end solo challenge, beyond soloing TFs etc which controllers can do too, then what else is there to do, except match that ability in the worst case OPd scenario?
Anyway, theres already dominators running around soloing the ITF, STF, LGTF LRSF and everything else under the sun in heavily IOd well played circumstances, so why not add one more way to do that to the mix?
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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While the rest of your arguments are sound, you apparently missed that they changed Vigilance a while back so it doesn't work that way anymore. Instead it boosts Defender damage in inverse relation to team size, with the largest boost solo.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
OK, so thats a fair amount of hyperbole right there, but there are plenty of sets out there that don't benefit from the ATs inherant very well, Defenders are one massive example of this, every one of their primary powers job is to stop the team from getting hurt bar one set, where its more reactive to the hurt, yet their inherant favours that.
Should Defenders not have gotten Thermal because it doesnt sit well with Vigilance? |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Just remember, if there is no obvious answer provided it always boils down to this:
Just to piss you off.
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Based, of course, on the much older Sumerian phrase "utu'urai ehek hamaan", meaning "wow, that's pretty darn small..."
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
It's true. It's a corruption of the ancient Babylonian phrase "trooi hicchmahn," which means "your junk is showing."
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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I was arguing for Illusion to be proliferated, if you read the bit at the bottom of my post. |
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Interestingly enough this also applies to Containment, the controller inherant, and also their ability to score a double-mag Overpower affect.
By saying "oh an arbitrary number of powers are not affected by this ATs inherant, the AT should therefore be denied this powerset" when talking about illusion basically means your agruing for it to be taken away from controllers as well. (and lets be honest here, part of Domination is an End Bar fill... every single power of every single dominator set ultimately gets the benefit from that...) OK, so thats a fair amount of hyperbole right there, but there are plenty of sets out there that don't benefit from the ATs inherant very well, Defenders are one massive example of this, every one of their primary powers job is to stop the team from getting hurt bar one set, where its more reactive to the hurt, yet their inherant favours that. Should Defenders not have gotten Thermal because it doesnt sit well with Vigilance? I dunno, all these "wouldnt be as good on Doms" arguemnts just dont hold strength for not giving the set to them because its not always about playing the best, sometimes its about playing what is fun and Illusion Doms for me would be one of the best bits of fun this game could throw at me right now. Then all the arguments about it being overpowered, well, is there a chance it can exceed what controllers can already do with it? If controllers can already Solo GMs, the biggest bundles of health this game has to offer, and the only real top end solo challenge, beyond soloing TFs etc which controllers can do too, then what else is there to do, except match that ability in the worst case OPd scenario? Anyway, theres already dominators running around soloing the ITF, STF, LGTF LRSF and everything else under the sun in heavily IOd well played circumstances, so why not add one more way to do that to the mix? |
I was trying to show how saying it wouldn't benefit much from Domination is just a fallacy.I have a perma-PA Ill/Rad Controller, and know full well how little actual hard control it has - that's why I (ab)use the secondary for personal survivability and extra hard controls when something decides that I look squishier than the PA (or I'm exemplared and it's not perma). Also, Overpower is not double mag, it's a shorter-duration extra 1 mag, meaning it's not likely to affect an Elite Boss like a Dominator can on almost every control when running Domination.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I can tell you that this is likely NEVER going to happen. Last I heard a dev comment on it was during a meet and greet a few months after GR was out and MMs could become heroes. They still stand by the fact that "Pain Domination IS Empathy for the historically villain ATs".
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Originally Posted by Computer
(I'm waiting for Empathy for my Masterminds myself.)
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- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Doms will get Illusion- AFTER the Devs beat the Illusion pets to a bloody pulp using a Nerf Bat. Synapse's recent comment about Unkillable pets being balance nightmares has me more convinced than ever that PA and the others will get heavily nerfed.
And to be honest- I will be VERY happy when they are. The fact that a Illusion character can have Unkillable pets that take aggro, fight and do serious damage at level 18 where no one else can is simply flat out BROKE. There is no way in hell they will proliferate it as it stands. I just hope I have enough popcorn to watch the ensuing nerdrage and Ragequits that will occur when they "destroy" Illusion Control.
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
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They don't do this because people are terrible.|
Originally Posted by Computer
(Emphasis mine) This. A Zillion times this.
The hardest part is waiting and wondering while people fight over why we are waiting. I personally believe it is because the developers think (incorrectly, on my opinion) it will be overpowered because of the example Controllers have set with it. It would be great if they gave us a check list of all the remaining power sets that need to be proliferated with their thoughts behind them. (I'm waiting for Empathy for my Masterminds myself.) |
After stating outright their issues with porting Poison over to heroes pre-Freedom (Poisoning people isn't very heroic) there were tons of threads and comments about how they needed to port poison over already because of whatever.
We could also look at how Sunstorm posted WAAAAAY back when about why they didn't proliferate Dark to everything right away (short version: existing dark sets had weird overlaps so they'd have to redo them in clever ways, like taking cone of fear out of miasma etc etc) so people spent the next few years crying about why we didn't have Dark yet and making threads about it. Then when they did give it to us some people took the "BUT I DON'T WANT IT ANYMORE WAAAAAUGH"-Veruca-Salt approach.
You act like them coming out and saying why sets are/aren't getting proliferated will somehow satisfy these people. It won't. Synapse even came out and said that unkillable pets is a horror to deal with balance-wise, and has made a point of mentioning that the new Haunt pets will be killable, just to make sure people get it. And yet here this thread is.
People will only be satisfied when they get things exactly the way they want them, exactly when they want them, as evidenced pretty clearly by this same thread right here.
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Considering that they are the central power of the set that would ruin Illusion. The anger of the playerbase would be completely justified. And what is the point of proliferating a set to Dominators and making it unplayable in the process?
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Originally Posted by Benchpresser
Doms will get Illusion- AFTER the Devs beat the Illusion pets to a bloody pulp using a Nerf Bat. Synapse's recent comment about Unkillable pets being balance nightmares has me more convinced than ever that PA and the others will get heavily nerfed.
And to be honest- I will be VERY happy when they are. The fact that a Illusion character can have Unkillable pets that take aggro, fight and do serious damage at level 18 where no one else can is simply flat out BROKE. There is no way in hell they will proliferate it as it stands. I just hope I have enough popcorn to watch the ensuing nerdrage and Ragequits that will occur when they "destroy" Illusion Control. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
When we didn't have IOs, Phantom Army is about as overpowered as Mass Hypnosis.
I have an alternate hypothesis to the whole 'why not yet' question: it's been brought up that we (A) have powerset customization, (B) have doppelganger tech, and (C) the devs originally hoped for decoys to mimic their summoner. (You know, actually BE decoys.) If this is in any way possible, they might be holding off proliferating until they can get such a thing working.
Just a thought.
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The real boon than Rad, Cold, TA and Time have are not the -res (which is nice) its the large amount of -Regen. That is the real kicker that gets overlooked too often. Flooring Regen is a sure way to solo anything, no matter how big it is. Dominator's cannot get that.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Illusion/rad solos them so easily because of the perma unkillable agro holding pets. Debuffs just make it go smoothly. The secondaries are there because as you said, PA can't be buffed, so why pair it with a buffing set rather than a debuffing one? Doms don't get those debuffs but they get crazy high PDS attack chains, and that will combine with pets to be a lot more than what the debuffs would add.
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Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Not much in Illusion benefits from Containment.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I was actually going to argue that its too weak for Doms.
Not much in illusion benefits from domination. |
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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I doubt they'd change PA in this way, but the secrecy and hype around Dark's tier 9 have me wondering if some kind of shadow clone is in the works...
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Originally Posted by Seldom
I have an alternate hypothesis to the whole 'why not yet' question: it's been brought up that we (A) have powerset customization, (B) have doppelganger tech, and (C) the devs originally hoped for decoys to mimic their summoner. (You know, actually BE decoys.) If this is in any way possible, they might be holding off proliferating until they can get such a thing working.
Just a thought. |
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Drain Psyche exists.
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Originally Posted by _Pine_
The real boon than Rad, Cold, TA and Time have are not the -res (which is nice) its the large amount of -Regen. That is the real kicker that gets overlooked too often. Flooring Regen is a sure way to solo anything, no matter how big it is. Dominators cannot get that.
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Well, that's one... but that's opposed to /rad, /cold, /TA, /Time, /Therm and soon Dark Affinity. All of which also offer up some -resist and -def (with the exception of DA, -resist only) as well. Doms do have some access to that, Sleet most notably, but for the most part are kind of limited with spawn to spawn -res/def. I could see Ill/Psi/Ice being a monster of a build, but so is an Ill/Cold controller; the dom would pull ahead in AoE though.|
Originally Posted by PowerLeveler
Drain Psyche exists.
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So far, I'm still in the camp that Ill on a dom would be no worse than it is on a troller. Of course, given how long it's been since proliferation began, it's obvious the devs aren't there with me.
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D'oh I was sure it also still provided an endurance discount as well as its damage buff. Can we retro-apply that part of my post to when it did work like that |
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
While the rest of your arguments are sound, you apparently missed that they changed Vigilance a while back so it doesn't work that way anymore. Instead it boosts Defender damage in inverse relation to team size, with the largest boost solo.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I was arguing for Illusion to be proliferated, if you read the bit at the bottom of my post.
I was trying to show how saying it wouldn't benefit much from Domination is just a fallacy. |
That argument about domination not affecting is the usually the argument de jour, glad someone else disagrees with it!
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Honestly, I believe it is simply marketing.
They have waited on desired proliferations before because they want to have proliferations to get people excited to play said powerset with said AT.
It will come, someday, possibly with slight changes. But mostly, I think it's all about the schedule and when they want to release/use something for hype.
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending
I've only been waiting, like, six years. I can wait a few more for this to happen.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Exactly. I almost never take immb on Dominator. The useful pet powers are uncontrollable for both Dominator and Controller.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Of course, the issue for me is that the useful powers for something other than a set mule in Earth that are affected are the hold and AoE stun. Every other commonly used power is unaffected. I skip the immobilizes on Dominators since I don't need to set up Containment and otherwise they're really just ways to get a lot of aggro that barely do damage, but I may take them if I have a spare set of Gravitational Anchors laying around. At least the 3 powers from Illusion are ones that I'd take - meaning that it's the same number as it is for the set they proliferated and the set they created. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Patience is a virtue.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I've only been waiting, like, six years. I can wait a few more for this to happen.
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Please buff Ice Control.
The only reason they're holding back on Illusion is so people need to pay money to unlock Trolls just for that set.
Also, do PA get buffed from the purple pet buildup proc?
On a tangent, note that spectral wounds' increased damage on doms isn't quite as impressive as it seems. Doms do have a ranged damage modifier roughly 75% greater than controllers, but controllers get containment, which increases the actual damage but *not* the healback (dom's increased damage scale affects both). Damage enhanced contained controller spectral wounds (at level 50) does 137.9 net damage - 157.5 base minus 19.6 healback. Meanwhile, damage enhanced dominator spectral wounds does 135.1 net damage - 169 base minus 33.9 healback - *less* than controller spectral wounds.
Even in situations where the healback doesn't take effect, the damage difference is barely 10 points. The only real difference is when the controller is unable to mez the target. This definitely is important on single targets of higher than boss rank, as illusion doesn't have the easy option of immobilizing them. However I do question the importance of such a difference, as in normal play such targets are the minority (and reasonably well handled by PA anyway) - keep in mind that all this talk of soloing AVs/etc represents a decidedly fringe case.
I will give you that they do damage. However, I will also note that so do hot feet, propel/lift, mesmerize/levitate/terrify, and vines/carrion creepers. Giving a primary set powers that do significant damage (above and beyond the damage done by pets and the ST controls) is apparently not a problem.
I really dont want to see Illusion dominators.. in fact in my mind it doesnt scream DOMINATION as a set to me..
I dont want to see dominators as the afterthought any longer..
And the devs never said they were proliferating every set...
Two, I don't see how giving dominators illusion control would be an 'afterthought', given how fervently and how long many dom players have been asking for it to be proliferated. Perhaps you might not be interested in it, but saying that an AT is being treated like an afterthought simply because they released a set that wasn't to your personal liking doesn't make sense. Especially when said set would be the fulfillment of a great many players longtime requests, and also especially if it comes anytime soon after the devs release two *more* sets that have also been requested for some time.
Finally, I'm sorry that you can't think of illusion as a dominator set. However, I don't see why that should prevent others who do find such a thing to fit their conception of the AT from playing the set. In general, I find concept to be such a subjective thing that it isn't really a useful point to bring up in these sorts of discussions. You've said that you don't think illusion fits doms conceptually. I now say that I think it does. Who's right? Neither and both, because concept isn't an absolute that can be debated. The only people who get to actually make decisions based on it are the devs.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!