Maelstrom's Pistol Craftable Costume Recipe
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-11-15 09:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Except its not *only* a rare drop: if you complete the task force you can simply buy the costume option if you do not get the rare drop. The option is only scarce for characters that do not perform the trial and thus cannot simply buy the unlock.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
My desire is to never see costumes gated ever at all, that much is true, and this is something I can't change any more than that I like salty foods. I do understand that signature pieces are treated differently, however. For years, the team has outright refused to enable those for players, so for them to enable these costumes at all, I can see them having to be gated in some way. I don't like costume gating, but I understand it for signature pieces.
Why I highly dislike in THIS case is that the costume piece has been turned into rare loot and transformed into a hook to get people to run raids. Whether or not costume gating is acceptable is sideways of HOW they get gated, and in this case, Maelstrom's Pistols are gated so as to encourage raid grind. Even when I accept costume gating a being logical, I still object to it being turned into loot and turned into a grind. Objectively speaking, what reason is there to make this a rare drop instead of a guaranteed drop, at least for one person who doesn't have it, and what reason is there to make people have to earn it twice? What, more specifically, aside from serving as bait to goad people into rerunning the new raid over and over again? THAT is what I object against. Gating signature pieces kind of goes with the territory. I don't like it, but I accept it. Turning them into a loot grind, on the other hand, I cannot accept. |
Are you saying you would rather the drop not exist at all, then be rare? You said you understood the devs motivation in the part being gated to actually defeating Maelstrom in the iTrial. They *added* an additional way for players to get the feature than simply buying the unlock after completing the trial: a way that the player could theoretically gift (or sell) to another character or player. Are you saying that if its going to be rare, you would rather it not exist at all?
The only real reason to run the trial repeatedly and earn the recipe drop is to earn the pistols for someone else or some other character: to enable someone or some other character that isn't performing the proscribed task that unlocks the reward to get the reward anyway. Are you saying its objectionable for someone trying to earn the option for someone else or sell the option to someone else to have to run the trial repeatedly? That someone that wants to sell the option or allow some other character to bypass the gate must have a way to do that quickly?
Again: players do not have to run the trial repeatedly to earn the pistols for themselves. They just have to run the trial once, then buy them for themselves. Its only if they do not want to run the trial that specifically gates the pistols that there is any issue with repetitive running of the trial.
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Originally Posted by Positron
The other method of obtaining this costume piece is to complete the TPN Campus trial with an Incarnate character who uses either dual pistols or thugs, and then visit Empyrean Michael. You should then find that he will allow you to unlock both pistols on that character for a moderate Empyrean Merit cost.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
There's absolutely no reason this needs to be a one-hand only piece that requires you to unlock it twice. The recipe or the emp purchase needs to give it for both hands.
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Originally Posted by concreteshift
You know, I really don't have a problem with this. It's because you can get it later with empyrean merits.
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Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Hm. 1/100 isnt as bad as you all seem to think it is. On a given trial, from 16-24, you actually have anywhere from a 16-24% chance of having it drop. On someone.
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Originally Posted by Venture
I'm OK with the recipe drop but not for needing it twice. That's just silly.
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Per person. Spread across 16-24 people the chance of it dropping is higher as I recall my math.
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Originally Posted by NuclearToast
Math is hard. It's a 7.84% chance.
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Positron said "The recipe has a 4% chance to drop..." and "... a 7.84% chance of somebody in the league getting the Maelstrom's Pistol recipe..." indicating it's the drop rate for the group not the individual. Which would make sense since as far as I know, with the exception of MSR merits, all drops are generated for the group and then assigned to one of the members at random.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Per person. Spread across 16-24 people the chance of it dropping is higher as I recall my math.
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Ignoring the fact that you need to buy the pistol(s) with currency earnable only from the Trials, yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. I have precisely ZERO need of this gun on any character that got to 50 before it was introduced. Aside from being a signature piece that I might value if I valued Maelstrom (I don't), it's really not "better" than any of the existing pistols, so the only possible need I'll ever have for that thing is a level 1 character just starting out to whom I can self-mail the recipe.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The only real reason to run the trial repeatedly and earn the recipe drop is to earn the pistols for someone else or some other character: to enable someone or some other character that isn't performing the proscribed task that unlocks the reward to get the reward anyway. Are you saying its objectionable for someone trying to earn the option for someone else or sell the option to someone else to have to run the trial repeatedly? That someone that wants to sell the option or allow some other character to bypass the gate must have a way to do that quickly?
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This is in the same vein as the auras and costume change emotes that are gated behind the Incarnate system but aren't actually Incarnate powers. My use for them on my Incarnates is limited. I have no dual pistol ones, for instance, with my Thugs Mastermind being level 36 or thereabout last I checked.
You describe Maelstrom's pistols as an unlock with a recipe added for convenience, which is not how Matt Miller described it. He described it as a costume drop recipe with an unlock for convenience. As such, it should be judged the same as existing costume piece recipes, like the Jet Boots or the Fairy Wings, and on THAT scale, it simply doesn't compare.
However you spin it, the fact remains that Malestrom's pistols are a way to get more people to run Incarnate Trials for the gun who may not have wanted to run them for the Well of the Furies storyline or the powers. And that's precisely what I don't want costumes - even signature ones - to be used for.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Your right - unless they chnaged how this one recipe drops, it would be just the 7.84.
However, it's not just MSRs that drop on a per-person chance - threads and shards do as well.
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And the fact that its irrelevant: the issue being discussed is scarcity, and whether it is explicitly intended to force farming. The empyrean merit cost of the pistol is not relevant to the drop rate of the recipe as it pertains to whether that drop rate is designed to encourage undesirable repetition. The only point in bringing it up was that its not scarce: its a non-rare method of acquiring the feature.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Ignoring the fact that you need to buy the pistol(s) with currency earnable only from the Trials
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| yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. |
It would still be, as I see it, not particularly useful feedback, because the devs have already stated repeatedly by statement and action that this game is about balancing gating, not eliminating gating. Citing examples of where the devs removed or ameliorated gating to contend that the devs at any point believed the best thing to do was eliminate gating entirely was mistaken. And this is a mistake that keeps getting repeated for some reason, every time the devs add a new gate.
They can gate poorly: the original stuff in the empyrean merit stores was almost certainly poor gating by most measures. But that doesn't mean telling the devs "just don't gate, ever" is useful, in the literal sense, meaning "advice they will use." All game design is a compromise between competing factors, and all such absolute rules or suggestions have no way to operate in that environment. Its not that they will not take your advice, its that they cannot take your advice. It runs contrary to the way they develop the game.
And I'm not the one spinning anything: you're the one applying spin to state relative certainty in the devs' ulterior motives. I haven't stated anything about the devs' motives except that I believe your interpretation of them is extreme, and not useful. Please quote where I attempted to apply any spin at all to this situation.
One last thing:
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| You describe Maelstrom's pistols as an unlock with a recipe added for convenience, which is not how Matt Miller described it. He described it as a costume drop recipe with an unlock for convenience. |
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| The main goal with this reward is to give players multiple ways to earn a signature costume piece from an incarnate level villain, while making sense within the story of the trial (each time you beat him, he loses a gun, until he's left with only his fists and feet in the grand finale.) The idea here is that the recipe drop feels like a "bonus" - it allows you to use the pistol on a low level alt, or on a character you haven't done TPN with - but that any Dual Pistols or Thugs character who wants to unlock the piece for having defeated Maelstrom at TPN Campus is also able to do so. |
He also specifically said, in his follow up post:
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| No. The idea is that if your Dual Pistols (or Thugs) character is playing through the Incarnate system you don't need to wait for the recipe drop to unlock the piece. |
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Knew I was forgetting some loot, thanks for the reminder.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
However, it's not just MSRs that drop on a per-person chance - threads and shards do as well.
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And keep in mind there is still Soon to Be Announced Solo-path for Incarnate rewards, so unless the solo path works completely differently (IE, excluding Empyreal Merits or the like) someone that doesn't like running trials often should be able to power themselves up via solo and only need to run TPN once for access to the guns, so there shouldn't be a lot of trial grinding.
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Ditto. I have a fire/kin who farms at level 51 [or maybe 52, I forget]/+8 and he has yet to see a purple drop in there.... I do get alot of other very useful stuff from farms, but geez. Some folks are just not beloved of the "random" number generator. |
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
That sounds a lot like the purple recipe drop rates for me, actually. The player 2 part I mean.
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I see this as going one of two ways.
Either people take to the TPN as they have done the BAF and Lambda, in which case there will be quite a lot of recipes knocking about and thus the price won't be astronomical.
Or
Players ditch the TPN like they've did the Anti-matter and the Underground thus leaving anyone with Dual Pistols simply hoping to complete a TPN then farm BAF and Lambda to unlock the slots since the recipe will have a price so astronomically high that most of the time it will be sold not on the market but on the forums for prices over the 2 billion inf cap.
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Oh right, I incorrectly assumed internet forums are made up of reasonable people. Silly me. LOL |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
yes!!!!!
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>>> Costume piece is a rare drop during an incarnate trial.
FAIL.
>>> Costume piece can be bought for farming incarnate trials for Empyreans.
DOUBLE FAIL.
Costume pieces should not be lottery tickets. This was stupid when I9 came out, and is no less stupid now.
Seriously, have you guys been learning absolutely nothing from the hate storm generated by gated costume bits, let alone incarnate burnout? You've already made this mistake... multiple times. The players don't want it. It's a suck mechanic and everyone at Paragon KNOWS THIS.
What you SHOULD do:
Even if you want to make the recipe tied to the trial, which I think is EVERY BIT AS STUPID AS HAVING EMPY-ONLY COSTUME PIECES, place it in Astral Christy's inventory and at Merit Vendors, including those in Fort Trident and The Crucible.
The SMART thing to do here is to tie this piece to the 'Eye of the Storm' badge, or something similar.
DON'T tie this to the incarnate system. DON'T make any costume piece drop a lottery ticket. DON'T DO IT. Don't repeat mistakes you've already made.
I don't have a problem with gating costume pieces behind various ways, but if it's going to be rare/difficult/require a long process then I'd prefer if unlocking the costume piece unlocked it account wide rather than per character.
Just some FYI on this...
I just got this drop. It was in the middle of the TPN, and not the end. I was not fighting Maelstrom at the time, but was outside on telepathist duty.
Not being able to craft it for Zube, and having no dual-pistols characters, I sold it at WW's. I got 970,000,000 for it (77 million fee)
Previous sales records were:
150,000,000
400,000,000
350,000,000
Only 4 have ever sold.
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Not at all surprising. It's costume recipes of old all over again.|
Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
Just some FYI on this...
I just got this drop. It was in the middle of the TPN, and not the end. I was not fighting Maelstrom at the time, but was outside on telepathist duty. Not being able to craft it for Zube, and having no dual-pistols characters, I sold it at WW's. I got 970,000,000 for it (77 million fee) Previous sales records were: 150,000,000 400,000,000 350,000,000 Only 4 have ever sold. |
With how much the TPN won't be run, I can see these things being extremely rare and hitting the 1 bill inf cap. Easily.
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inf cap is 2 billion.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Not at all surprising. It's costume recipes of old all over again.
With how much the TPN won't be run, I can see these things being extremely rare and hitting the 1 bill inf cap. Easily. |
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*twitch*|
Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
Just some FYI on this...
I just got this drop. It was in the middle of the TPN, and not the end. I was not fighting Maelstrom at the time, but was outside on telepathist duty. Not being able to craft it for Zube, and having no dual-pistols characters, I sold it at WW's. I got 970,000,000 for it (77 million fee) |
You know, I have a Dual Pistols character (not level 50), and I have to think that if I got this drop, I'd sell it on Wentworth's in a heartbeat.
And then convert a bunch of it to Prestige for my base. :P
I haven't run TPN yet because I've been busy with Titan Weapons so I can't check. How many Emps do the pistols cost?
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as mentioned by posi much earlier in the thread, characters that have dual pistols can just purchase the unlock directly with emp merits (have not checked the cost)|
Originally Posted by Kierthos
*twitch*
You know, I have a Dual Pistols character (not level 50), and I have to think that if I got this drop, I'd sell it on Wentworth's in a heartbeat. And then convert a bunch of it to Prestige for my base. :P |
which brings up the point of how valid the costume drop was in the first place lol
on another note, i think in another thread it was brought up by arbiter hawk the exact drop %: there will be 2 chances for the pistols recipe to drop with each chance having 4% drop chance, which per trial should average to 7.68%
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You know what's great is whoever bought that still has to buy another one if they want to have the pistol in both hands.|
Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
Just some FYI on this...
I just got this drop. It was in the middle of the TPN, and not the end. I was not fighting Maelstrom at the time, but was outside on telepathist duty. Not being able to craft it for Zube, and having no dual-pistols characters, I sold it at WW's. I got 970,000,000 for it (77 million fee) Previous sales records were: 150,000,000 400,000,000 350,000,000 Only 4 have ever sold. |
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
as mentioned by posi much earlier in the thread, characters that have dual pistols can just purchase the unlock directly with emp merits (have not checked the cost)
which brings up the point of how valid the costume drop was in the first place lol |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I can tell the difference. My chr being 200 to 2000 million richer if I get the drop. :P
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
There's a pretty good shot on the i21.5 announcement page.
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Originally Posted by Positron
Arbiter Hawk is in a meeting, but he wanted me to post this:
Hey all, just popping in here to give some clarification on this point: There are two ways to obtain Maelstrom's Pistols as a costume piece. The recipe has a 4% chance to drop each time you see a pistol get knocked out of Maelstrom's hand in the TPN Campus incarnate trial. This occurs twice per playthrough on a successful trial - once when you defeat him inside the main TPN Campus building, and once when you defeat him outside during stage 4 of the trial. That means there's a 7.84% chance of somebody in the league getting the Maelstrom's Pistol recipe that you are currently seeing in the auction house listing. This recipe is tradeable and can be used by any dual pistols character or thugs mastermind at any level, meaning you can send it to your friend's new level 1 character to make a cool pistol for him to use. Using the recipe allows you to craft either the left pistol or the right pistol. The other method of obtaining this costume piece is to complete the TPN Campus trial with an Incarnate character who uses either dual pistols or thugs, and then visit Empyrean Michael. You should then find that he will allow you to unlock both pistols on that character for a moderate Empyrean Merit cost. This ensures that all characters who can use dual pistols have a way of eventually unlocking Maelstrom's guns if that's what they want. The main goal with this reward is to give players multiple ways to earn a signature costume piece from an incarnate level villain, while making sense within the story of the trial (each time you beat him, he loses a gun, until he's left with only his fists and feet in the grand finale.) The idea here is that the recipe drop feels like a "bonus" - it allows you to use the pistol on a low level alt, or on a character you haven't done TPN with - but that any Dual Pistols or Thugs character who wants to unlock the piece for having defeated Maelstrom at TPN Campus is also able to do so. |
I seemed to miss the part where you guys factored in 'grindy' and 'repetetive'.
Not to mention most people simply ignore Maelstrom until they have to on TPN.
And not to mention the recipe chances is 7% over the entire league?! I....it.....
Honestly, what the hell? Do you guys even consider the people who would like the costume parts and don't run trials these days? Or is this another brilliant 'incentive' idea, where I might as well just start smashing my faceplate into a brick wall and save myself the effort?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This is awesome I'm up for this. Makes running hard Trials actually worth it instead of another round of speed baf/lam/keyes