WIR? (Spoilers)

WIR might have started 12 years ago. Gwen's been dead for FAR longer.

And yes, Uncle Ben did die for the whole find character growth that happened with Peter. And if that's the case, so did Bruce's parents. Both dead so he can become Batman.

Yup. Superman has a whole planet of people dying so he can become Superman.

This is why WIR is a dumb trope. And looking at that link. Raven, because she's sometimes evil? I've always thought that was just part of her character.

Storm. You know for someone who lost her powers, she seemed to kick a lot of butt without them.

By the deffinition of that site, Gambit's in a refridgerator for going blind, being turned into a horseman, ect ect.

Don't forget that the TVTropes page has a fair number of gender-flipped fridging in its examples. So all Smersh has to do is look at it and see how it doesn't apply only to women dying or losing their powers.

Oh... hey... what about the ol' "No More Mutants" thing? A lot of guy mutants got depowered. I seem to recall the Blob trying to hang himself and failing miserably.

hate!!!!!!!!!!

that's kinda my point. Bad things happen to everyone in comics. Bad things happen to people in soaps. It's part of how they keep going and going and moving on and changing.

They probably consider it WIR when the female loses her husband to further her character growth, but because it's a woman that means it's WIR because something bad happened to her.

Basically, I think WIR is a stupid trope that tries to find "unfairness" in something that isn't there. Yes, I'm sure there's been some writer who said "God, I hate women right now" and decided to take it out on a female character, same with women writers int he reverse, but normally, that's just how it goes.

Kill someone close to main character, let them angst, let them grow, then let them reset, and do it all over again!

Killing off supporting characters to further character development, and, in particular, establish consequences while underlying the fact that "there is no turning back now" is age old. Just a couple of examples off the top of my head from movies, TV, and literature (some sort of spoilers contained) follow. I gathered from a number of different genres, time periods, and mediums to illustrate how often characters are motivated by the deaths of minor characters, or sometimes major ones.


Who Framed Roger Rabbit: Eddie Valiant became a toon-hating alcoholic after his brother had a piano dropped on his head. His resolution comes only after confronting the killer, who taunts him about the murder during the final act (leading to the infamous nightmare fuel sequence that begins when the villain shouts, "When I killed your brother...")

Original Star Wars trilogy: Luke's family, a planet, and both of his mentors are killed in the service of establishing consequences and forcing the lead character down his path without an opportunity to turn back.

Saving Private Ryan: The deaths of three brothers motivate a plan to save the fourth.

Flatliners: Julia Robert's character is haunted by memories of her father committing suicide when she was a child, a scene the audience witnesses first hand. Keifer Sutherland's character is haunted by the ghost of a boy he acidentally killed.

Watchmen (comic version): The original Night Owl, now an old man, is beaten to death by thugs, leaving the new Night Owl with no one to confide in.

Jaws 2: In a somewhat accidentally comical incident, the kids realize they are really in trouble when the shark eats the helicopter and its pilot, who had represented escape. The pilot character had no reason to exist except to get eaten (like many characters in this type of movie).

Hamlet: After receiving a message from his father's ghost, Hamlet plots to kill his uncle Claudius. Claudius is not only suspected of having killed his father, but has also married his mother.

Story of St. Peter: Or nearly any historical saint figure whether male or female. Set into motion by the death of someone pretty historically important, no matter what your beliefs are. I'd talk more about this but will probably run afoul of the monitors.

Batman: Already mentioned elsewhere. Both parents killed. Comedy send up viewable here: http://www.memecenter.com/search/bat...mp%20genie%20p

True Blood: Sookie's and Jason's parents, then (especially) grandmother are killed in the service of giving the lead character something to fret about, as a well as a house to use for supernatural hook ups.

Menace 2 Society: The murder of the shopkeepers in the opening scene of the movie serves to characterize the lead character's friend as a dangerous criminal and create a rapidly devolving situation for the protagonist when the cops link him to the murder site.



None of this is to say it's not possible to have misogyny in a movie/film/comic/video game, but I do think the term is bandied around a bit too freely. IMO just dying in the service of a plot is not a uniquely female characteristic. That is something support characters do pretty regularly.

The WIR Syndrome applies to a particular subset of female character deaths, as has been discussed in this thread.

Here are some observations about the trend from notable professional comics writers, collected from the WIR site:

Marv Wolfman:
Jim Shooter:
Barry Windsor-Smith:
Steve Englehart:
Mark Waid:
Wally West's wife Linda Park was apparently erased from the Flash's continuity in the New 52, by the way.

The problem of the WIR Syndrome in mainstream superhero comics isn't the killing of women per se, it's a combination of the circumstances in which they are killed and the portrayal of their characters in those circumstances - which is noticeably different from the way male characters are treated under similar conditions. The trope namer, Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, Alexandra DeWitt, has already been discussed in this thread - murdered by a supervillain who then dismembered her and stuffed her body parts into a refrigerator, for those tuning in late - but there are other notable examples.

• Big Barda, one of Apokolips's fiercest fighters, was killed in her kitchen in a sneak attack to kick off the Death of the New Gods. The other New Gods bumped off in this series got to put up more of a fight, but Scott Free needed extra motivation of his wife's sudden death to go after their killer.
  
• Green Lantern Katma Tui, John Stewart's wife, is killed while powerless by Hal Jordan's archetypal psycho ex, Star Sapphire. She remains the only Green Lantern to have died in her kitchen, whereas most members of the Corps tend to fall in a super-powered battle of some kind.
  
• The capable and independent wife of Elongated Man, Sue Dibny is killed accidentally while her guard is down at home by the Atom's estranged wife (yes, another psycho ex). Soon after, it's revealed she was sexually assaulted by Dr. Light, in order to make that erstwhile comic relief villain more evil.
  
• Although I've personally argued against including The Killing Joke for artistic reasons, there's no question that Batgirl is crippled in a shooting by the Joker when she lets her guard down at home, so Alan Moore nonetheless gets points deducted.
  
• While Jason Todd is bludgeoned to death by the Joker and becomes a ever-present source of guilt to the Batman, who constantly reminds himself of what happened, Stephanie Brown doesn't even merit a Bat Cave memorial of her Robin costume after being tortured to death by Black Mask, to make the new-ish villain as evil as the Batman's old school rogue's gallery. (Yes, they both "get better" and come back.)
  
• And let's not even get into the apparent automatic death sentence that's passed for being the girlfriend of Daredevil or the Savage Dragon.
  
• Also, to address a sci-fi example used earlier, Obi-Wan duels Darth Vader and sacrifices himself distract the villain from Luke and company's escape from the Death Star, but he comes back as a Force-ghost. The unarmed Padmé confronts Anakin, gets force-choked, dies of a broken heart, and is mentioned about as often as Mrs. Lear in the original Star Wars trilogy, but her death motivates Vader to become totally evil or whatever.

Not every superheroine or superhero's girlfriend dies in WIR fashion, nor do comics writers traditionally exclude male secondary characters from dying in plot twists to motivate heroes. When a certain set of criteria are fulfilled, however, that's when the 'fridged trope is invoked.

Here in CoH, the devs have taken an underdeveloped female character - who nonetheless possesses some significance as not only a relative of two of the game's most prominent NPC heroes but also a lengthy career as a crimefighter - and had her killed off with her guard down by an Arachnos agent who otherwise wouldn't be in her fighting bracket. We shall see how her death affects the other superheroes and plays out in the SSA's plot, but at this point, Miss Liberty looks like she's being stuffed into the metaphorical refrigerator.

...are you saying that a level 30+ PC isn't in the same 'bracket' as a retired heroine without her powers?

That is exactly the kind of thinking that's plagued red-side for too long. We are, at best, sidekicks to the real characters.

(On a side note to the developers: For Christmas, I'd very much like an opportunity to stuff Hardcase in a refrigerator. Thanks!)

She was choked to death, not dismembered. If you've even looked at the image that follows this trope's discussion on the internet (almost every one has the frame where he discovers her body), you can see her in there. There's no indication of dismemberment.


What? Anakin had lost it at the point where he did that. How is she the platform that launched anything for him?

I'd much rather stuff statesman into a grave from which he never, ever rises, but then I have an almost pathological hate for jack's stand in vanity toons. I completely understand the sentiment and agree on all levels.

Thank you for sharing the quotes. They are interesting, but for me they do not settle the issue. Even if WiR exists in mainstream comics, it is a) not clear to me that CoX storylines have a direct connection to mainstream comic book stories capable of continuing a previously existing trend and b) that the death of Liberty #2 in particular would qualify even if that clear line were established.

With no offense meant to the CoX story writers, to me CoX is not mainstream comics. It mimics mainstream comic structure, kind of, but at the same time every story is really just a set piece to move the player into a warehouse crowded with enemies. If it is unfair to pull in examples of movies or books that are not mainstream comics as examples of this trope being subverted, then I question whether it is fair to pull in an MMO.

Ultimately I think most people involved in this discussion have good intentions. On the other hand, I tend not to take the charge of sexism lightly. From a sheer sense of self preservation it's tempting to me to just agree that the death of this character is part of a malicious trend, and accept the kudos I might receive for being among the liberated. On the other hand, doing that kind of leaves the authors to a fate I don't think they deserve. I doubt I'd even agree with the rest of the WiR group about what a "correct" rewrite would even look like.


I'll drink to that.

Actually, it's quite a lot more complex than that - especially as Padme actually died while Vader was being put into the suit - it's her potential death that's the driving force behind the final stage of his fall to the dark side - his mother and the 3 father-figures in his life also had a massive role in his fall.

Actually, the contrast couldn't be simpler: Two major Star Wars characters die as a result of confronting Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, but while one heroically sacrifices himself and plays a significant role in later films, the other goes down like a chump and isn't inquired after by either her son or her daughter in the original trilogy. Guess which one shares the same chromosomal characteristics as George Lucas?

When, exactly, did Leia ever inquire after either parent? Leia actually remembered her mother when asked about her parents, but never mentions her father at all. When did Luke inquire about his parents? Oh, right, when other people told him about his father. Why do we suppose they talk to Luke about his father? Perhaps because his father was on their minds because he became a force of evil and terror known galaxy-wide, and was still so.

Honestly, some of these so-called examples are intellectually insulting. Sometimes, a cigar really is a cigar, and all that. People need to not see conspiracies, or in this case, politically incorrect motivations, in everything that remotely fits the mold. Doing so honestly does a disservice to efforts to expose serious examples of things like racism and misogyny where they truly do apply. Can "real" social issue seep into more generic media? Of course, and we should be on the look out for it. Seeing it everywhere is not a useful approach. Edit: And I believe anyone seeing it in Star Wars, of all things, truly is seeing it everywhere.

Yeah, this is my big pet peeve with comics. Death is meaningless. It's merely a vacation for the character rather than the harsh finality we know it to be. So, stuffed in a refrigerator? They'll be back, don't worry. Hell, even Uncle Ben came back for a day.

The only character I can think of who's perma-dead is the Kree hero, Captain Marvel. Who died from AIDS, btw.

Unless it's been retconned-- I gave up comics a while ago-- Marv-Ell died from cancer not AIDS.

Yeah, I've gotten so many plaudits from this thread I don't know what to do with them. [/sarcasm]

So, you're saying my opinion is invalid because... I haven't held it for long enough. The number of reasons why that might be the case is as long as my arm - Maybe I didn't read Spiderman until four or five years ago. Perhaps I was unaware of the WIR phenomenon until four or five years ago. Perhaps my opinions have changed as I've had life experiences and further educated myself.

In any event, that's a nonsensical argument and not worthy of consideration. I don't care how long you've held your opinions, whether it's been two weeks or twenty years.

And your point is?

I'm not an expert in comics, nor do I claim to be.

Nor do I hew exclusively to the definition of that site, or that of TV Tropes. I've stated my definition at least twice in this thread, I see no reason to repeat it here. But I will say this: The original blog post about WIR tries to cover two scenarios, and the definition I use only covers one. Storm, Raven and the like having horrible things happen to them would be something to look at in terms of possible mistreatment of female characters at the hands of male authors, but they are not in the working definition I am using for WIR. I accept the blog post and TVTropes as illustrative, but not definitive.

What I haven't seen is your definition of WIR, and whether you believe it to be an issue or not.

I've made my declarative statements; I've laid my cards on the table. If you want to make a statement that you don't think it's a problem, we can discuss it on that level. But, if you make that statement, you don't get to tell me that my definition is wrong. I've defined what I think is happening, and you're saying "no, that's not happening."

If you do agree that it is happening, but feel my definition is wrong, we can discuss it on that level. (That is precisely where a discussion of Gwen Stacy lies.)

If you prefer to grant my definition (even if just for the sake of argument) of WIR and want to say that I'm applying it incorrectly in certain cases (i.e. Gwen Stacy) and want to refute my application based on story elements in the text, we can do that too.

All of the above are perfectly reasonable areas of debate, and I am willing to speak to any of them.

What I will choose not to do is to engage you if you're unwilling to meet halfway for debate. If you want to engage in ad hominem (YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT GWEN STACY WAS WIR FOR LONG ENOUGH, YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING!), if you want to say that "it isn't happening and your definition is wrong and Gwen Stacy isn't in a fridge, but I won't state my definition of what constitutes a fridging that I don't believe happens anyway," I will bid you good day and not respond to you further in this thread.

I won't be subjected to goalposts being moved on issues not germane to my argument.

Oh right, my mistake.

He also came back and was put in charge of the inter-dimensional prison during Civil War.

That was a Skrull.

I hope you don't employ the same sarcasm when you make claims about sexist writing. Unlike you, the writer of the arc doesn't get to walk away easily from this thread without a sense of having been publicly reprimanded.

Death is definitely overused for shock value in comics and certainly devalued when characters can't seem to stay dead. One notable aspect of the WIR Syndrome is that the killed off women tend to remain deceased, or at best take much longer to come back to life or get restored to normal than their male counterparts. When Batman's spine is broken, he's back in action after about a year's worth of issues; when Batgirl's is, she spends over two decades in a wheelchair.

Here's a further set of recent examples of fridged female characters, all of whom are still dead:

• Tana Moon, the girlfriend of new formula Superboy, was electrocuted in front of him with a boobytrapped necklace she'd unknowingly accepted as a gift from a villain. Her death did provide Superboy with an occasion for maturing, though. As Guardian helpfully observed in front of Moon's smouldering corpse, "Superboy just lost a big part of his youth, and it wasn't because he was transformed into a man."
  
• Teen Titan Pantha was accidentally decapitated by the far more powerful original flavor Superboy during his super-hissy fit so he could go past the moral point of no return.
  
• Batman's girlfriend Silver St. Cloud was killed in a sneak attack by a disguised Onomatopoeia, to make the new-ish villain as evil as the Batman's old school rogue's gallery.
  
• Dee Tyler, the second Phantom Lady, was slaughtered by Deathstroke, a supervillain well above her fighting bracket, to confirm his status as a "just business" badass mercernary.
  
• The Wasp was unsuspectingly turned into a potential bio-bomb by a disguised Skrull, who had been posing as her husband, and had to be teleported away from the battle by Thor before she was detonated. Her husband has since been inspired by her death to adopt her superhero title for himself.

Fun fact: The Wasp is the only founding member of the Avengers who hasn't come back to life after being killed.

You're quite welcome - the variety of opinions from those writers was thought-provoking (there are more on Simone's site, and yes, she did receive feedback from women in comics). Although those writers had individual explanations for the WIR Syndrome, none of them argued against the essential merits of Simone's theisis or the extent of her list of examples.

From these examples and others, several criteria emerge for a female character's death to count as getting fridged:

(A) The female character goes down like a chump, because she's ambushed, outclassed, depowered, or otherwise behaving out of character;
(B) The death* is "shocking", because of extreme violence or from-out-of-nowhere unpredictability, if not both;
(C) Another character, typically but not exclusively male, "benefits" in terms of development, from the hero receiving additional motivation or undergoing "growth" to the villain confirming evil nature and/or dangerous threat status; and
(D) Male characters rarely if ever receive the same treatment under similar circumstances (their deaths are more often heroic sacrifices, constantly mourned, or only temporary setbacks).

* In the original definition of the WIR Syndrome, sexual assault, torture, maiming, depowering, etc. also counted for qualification, but those are not applicable to this discussion about Miss Liberty's killing.

This discussion is feedback, which is part of the purpose of these boards. It's one of CoH's merits that the devs do pay attention to what players are saying and make adjustments accordingly. And if Dr. Aeon would like to post here to give us some insight into the choices made when constructing this narrative or to respond to the points that we have made about it, then he could expect to be treated with the same consideration we give one another in these conversations.

At present, the SSA storyline is still in motion, so it would be premature to declare Miss Liberty's death to be a canonical WIR example for the CoH entry on TV Tropes, even though it already meets a couple of criteria. There's still time, one would hope, for this arc to make improvements.