WIR? (Spoilers)
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/baisleac/Sig%20Requests/ComSmersh.png)
I will echo this statement by repeating something I've stated elsewhere: tvtropes may be fun to read, but if one of your rules of fiction is "it can't appear there," then you're going to be constantly disappointed, and your standards are, dare I say, out of whack. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Excellent observation. Since it came from someone players respect (respect for his craziness, sure, but it's respect, dangit), maybe someone will finally listen.
I will echo this statement by repeating something I've stated elsewhere: tvtropes may be fun to read, but if one of your rules of fiction is "it can't appear there," then you're going to be constantly disappointed, and your standards are, dare I say, out of whack. |
If you look at the relevant page on TVtropes, it does list a few examples where the roles are reversed. However, they aren't nearly as common.
No, tropes are not necessarily bad. However, commonly used tropes, especially tropes with a strong gender bias, are something that people need to be aware of when writing.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Barbara Gordon's crippling and subsequent sexual harassment at the hands of the Joker in 'The Killing Joke' solely as a measure to torment Jim Gordon stands out as the most prominent example in my mind, but there are many, many others.
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It's not about the gruesomeness of the death - Gwen Stacy counts as stuffed in a fridge.
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My point, if I have one at all, is that one can reasonably discuss whether or not these examples from comics count as part of the "women in refrigerators" syndrome, but the death of Miss Liberty, as Smersh describes, is classic 'fridging. The devs should take care to avoid it from now on.
I'll be honest, here. The idea of a woman being murdered bothers me more than the idea of a guy being murdered. Don't misread that. I think the idea of anyone being murdered is terrible. Anyone's death ends all their goals an aspirations, and it deprives all their friends, loved ones and family of that person's place in their lives. (Clearly I'm assuming here that the person lost wasn't themselves some monster people would be glad to be rid of.) But given that anyone's murder bothers me a lot, assuming people I don't know personally, the idea of the murder of a even a woman I don't know bothers me more than the murder of a man that I don't know.
Hopefully unsurprisingly, given my forum handle, I'm a guy. I'm a heterosexual guy; if I want a relationship, it's going to be with a woman. I'm also pretty into the idea of monogamy. Every relationship with a woman isn't a serious, deep commitment, but if I do enter a serious relationship with a woman, I don't plan to get a replacement somewhere. Therefore I aim to invest deeply in that. The idea of doing that and having it stripped from me by the death (by any means) of that partner is an awful prospect, but the idea that they could be taken from me by another person's deliberate acts is a situation I can barely put my mind around, and that's not even considering the dark details this could entail of how the murder happened.
I believe that I project that onto others. I know that if any woman is murdered, somewhere out there she might have had a guy like me in her life, who now is left feeling like I would.
Therefore, if I were a writer, because of my feelings, outlined above, one of the most horrible pains I could imagine inflicting on a male characters is the murder of their female loved one. I read the eponymous comic, Green Lantern #54, back when it came out. I definitely wanted Kyle to kill Major Force.
Let's face it, right now the majority of our iconic comic heroes are male. There are plenty of female characters out there, but especially the golden and silver age icons that form something of a backbone of our current "mainstream" superhero comics culture are dominated by male figures. Completely aside from the question of whether our stable of comic book icons should be predominantly male, given that they are predominantly male, and given that the are predominantly portrayed as heterosexual, I think this then leads naturally to the seeming prevalence of this purported meme.
I don't think it's creepy. I think it's actually an outgrowth of a variation on chivalrous views - that good men think the idea of bad things happening to women is heinous. Depicting bad things happening to women is then a way to depict a heinous foe.
It becomes weird if it's nonsensically applied outside the boundaries I've given. If our protagonist is a heterosexual female, does it make sense for one of her female friends to end up in a fridge? Unfortunately, I could see it being done solely because the writers/publishers might think their readers are mostly male, since it could still tap into those male readers' potential loathing for this outcome and thus of the murderer. That's not creating empathy with the protagonist in this case, though. Were I to come to know that was done, though, I would think less of the author, because that comes across to me targeted advertising more than good writing, and while the two can be related, I view them as separate.
If anything about this deserves discussion, I think it might be to wonder why men like me are less bothered (even if certainly bothered) by the idea of the murder of their fellow males.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It's not about the gruesomeness of the death - Gwen Stacy counts as stuffed in a fridge.
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To call Gwen Stacy a WIR death would be like complaining Shakespeare speaks in cliches
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
ps: It is Comic Book Law that "Gwen Stacy" and "J. Michael Straczynski" may not be mentioned in the same conversation unless it is to explain Comic Book Law.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
If anything about this deserves discussion, I think it might be to wonder why men like me are less bothered (even if certainly bothered) by the idea of the murder of their fellow males.
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Liberty was marked from the get-go. She has basically the same name as another character, leading to them being easily confused (strike 1), is a member of a do-gooder family spanning multiple generations (strike 2), and is more of a supporting character than a main one (strike 3). She was straight-up walking death-bait. Especially due to issue #1. Literally the only thing I now know about this character is she is the younger Liberty's mom and now she is dead.
Personally I'm a bit skeptical of the WIR theory. The death of any supporting character occurs in order to give the main characters something to react to, whether that supporting character is a girlfriend, mentor, side kick, little brother, father figure, best friend, lover, or pet. That is why these are supporting characters and not main ones. They are there to support. Knocking off supporting characters to build drama and push the lead characters into deeper, inevitable, and constantly building conflict is an age-old technique. Just look at some of Shakespeare's plays for classical examples.
This reminds me, Samuel Tow's suggestions to the devs about future plotting covered this development (#2 and, arguably, #4).
The more I think about the game's story, the more I have a few things to kindly ask the writers to please stop doing:
1. Please stop trying to surprise us with plot twists. I know that a story which doesn't go exactly as the audience predicted makes for a good experience, but when you start adding plot twists to the plot twists that negated previous plot twists, you are officially trying too hard. 2. Please stop trying to shock us. A shock death is a powerful tool. Ten shock deaths in a row is boring. It's the difference between Modern Warfare and Modern Warfare 2. A shock revelation can surprise. Shock revelation after shock revelation just makes us stop caring to keep track. You don't have to try so hard. 3. Please Stop making your stories such a tangled mess of complexity. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to have an impenetrably complex story that reinvents the wheel three times over to have a compelling plot. In fact, the simpler the base story is, the more freedom the storyteller has in HOW he tells it. Pick a simple story and just stick to telling it well. You don't have to keep adding plot threads. 4. Please stop invalidating your old stories. I get that writers leave and new ones join, wanting to tell their own story, but please make sure that those writers are well educated on the game's background, so that they don't contradict what's already been said or massively misrepresent established concepts. You don't have to defile an old story to make a new one. |
Who put the link to TV tropes?
Whenever I enter that site, I can't find my way out.
"If you want to win you must not lose."
"Easiest way to turn defeat into a victory is to put on the enemy's uniform"
"Better strategic retreat than dishonorable defeat"
Number 5 could be "Avoid tropes with a misogynistic bias."
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Speaking for myself the problem I had with the story arc isn't so much the gender of Miss Liberty but the fact that I had been given little reason to care about her. She wasn't a character to me, she was piece of background lore.
How about just killing her because it's the natural, if emotional, resolution to this story?
Or just not making a "We killed a main character's brother's sister's dog's owner's sister's uncle's dad's cousin's father's brother's robot! Look how edgy we are!" plot.
To have her show up a second time with no fanfare, and to be killed solely to provide motivation to our signature heroes? Yeah, that's stuffing her in a refrigerator.
Had the negotiations with Marshall Blitz and Miss Liberty been a B plot withing the SSAs, had the character any sort of presence in the game... there were ways that could have avoided WIR. As it is, she shows up in the game once to be established and once to die providing pathos and motivation to our protagonists (which are not our player characters mind, but the signature heroes.) It's pretty much the definition of WIR. |
The meme is described thusly on the Wikipedia article on the topic.
'Women in Refrigerators Syndrome' describes the use of the death or injury of a female comic book character as a plot device in a story starring a male comic book character. It is also used to note the depowerment or elimination of a female comic book character within a comic book universe. Cases of 'Women in Refrigerators Syndrome' deal with a gruesome injury or murder of a female character at the hands of a supervillain, usually as a motivating personal tragedy for a male superhero to whom the victim is connected. The death or injury of the female character then helps cement the hatred between the hero and the villain responsible. Kyle Rayner is a particularly cited example of this case, due to the common tragedies that befall women in his life.[16] |
The WiR website actually goes beyond this, listing examples of perceived misogyny against female characters, including main ones.
What I think there's a good case for is that the SSA provides an example of a character who was there almost specifically to serve as a WiR.
I want to mention that, for reasons I gave in my post on how I view the overall notion of a male character losing a female partner, I do not feel that this plot element is misogynous. I do not even feel that its prevalence as a plot element is misogynous, when viewed across many stories. Where I would contend it risks become misogynous is when it becomes a regular element in a given setting. Having it come up a lot across settings or stories seems perfectly reasonable to me, for reasons given earlier, but having a single story or series revisit it repeatedly risks crossing a line for me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
How about just killing her because it's the natural, if emotional, resolution to this story?
Or just not making a "We killed a main character's brother's sister's dog's owner's sister's uncle's dad's cousin's father's brother's robot! Look how edgy we are!" plot. |
And then leave it to other people to rage about misogynistic bias.
Sadly, this thread isn't about whether killing someone Statesman cares about makes for a good or a bad plot hook.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Yeah, zero problems here with anyone of either gender dying for any reason if it's consistent with the story that's been told prior and it's tone.
This was so clumsy, though, I'm not even sure there was any gender bias involved...
Depicting bad things happening to women is then a way to depict a heinous foe.
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Speaking for myself the problem I had with the story arc isn't so much the gender of Miss Liberty but the fact that I had been given little reason to care about her. She wasn't a character to me, she was piece of background lore.
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To do this, one needs to create a good character in the first place.
The problem is that avoiding tropes with a misogynistic bias is, itself, a misogynistic bias.
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Saying "oh we can't kill Miss Liberty because she's a woman" isn't really any better than saying "let's kill Miss Liberty because she's a woman". |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Yeah, zero problems here with anyone of either gender dying for any reason if it's consistent with the story that's been told prior and it's tone.
This was so clumsy, though, I'm not even sure there was any gender bias involved... |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Granted, I havn't seen the arc unfold, myself, so I'm just taking everyone's word for it. I do appreciate the effort to make "permanent" changes to the setting... whether this was a good way to do it, or not, is not really for me to judge.
I think it's worth noting, however, that the overarching theme for Statesman is "outliving everyone he cares about", into which the death of Miss Liberty plays nicely.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Actually, that's not correct. I won't disagree that it's an example of WiR, but it's not for the specific reasons you argue it is. The meme is neither focused on or heightened by the characters being "stuffed in fridge" having a lack of depth or other role in the story.
The meme is described thusly on the Wikipedia article on the topic. Emphasis is mine. Notice that this does not say that a defining characteristic of this meme has anything to do whether the character is well-developed or has any other role. The WiR website actually goes beyond this, listing examples of perceived misogyny against female characters, including main ones. What I think there's a good case for is that the SSA provides an example of a character who was there almost specifically to serve as a WiR. I want to mention that, for reasons I gave in my post on how I view the overall notion of a male character losing a female partner, I do not feel that this plot element is misogynous. I do not even feel that its prevalence as a plot element is misogynous, when viewed across many stories. Where I would contend it risks become misogynous is when it becomes a regular element in a given setting. Having it come up a lot across settings or stories seems perfectly reasonable to me, for reasons given earlier, but having a single story or series revisit it repeatedly risks crossing a line for me. |
I consider the examples especially egregious when the character being fridged is defined primarily by their relationship to our (usually male) protagonist. If you describe Peter Parker in one sentence, you would probably say something about how he's Spiderman. If I asked you to describe Gwen Stacy in one sentence, that sentence would most likely be about her being Peter Parker's girlfriend.
In terms of your Wikipedia definition, I tend to focus much more on the first sentence than the second. I also am known to talk about refrigerators in genres other than comic books.
Definition one: the use of the death or injury of a female comic book character as a plot device in a story starring a male comic book character.
Definition two: the depowerment or elimination of a female comic book character within a comic book universe.
Amazingly, here, in the SSA - Alexis Cole-Duncan fits BOTH categories. And, in the villain-side version of the arc (which I ran this morning), your character has the opportunity to put her in the fridge yourself, with explicit dialogue from Malaise pointing out how the two of you were going to hang out to see Manticore's expression when you open the fridge door for him yourselves.
Why must Alexis Cole-Duncan die? To screw with Statesman and Manticore. No other reason. Not to mention that she's a depowered former superhero who can't fight back and spends the entire arc cowering.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/baisleac/Sig%20Requests/ComSmersh.png)
Why must Alexis Cole-Duncan die? To screw with Statesman and Manticore. No other reason. Not to mention that she's a depowered former superhero who can't fight back and spends the entire arc cowering.
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Let me drill in very narrowly.
As it is, she shows up in the game once to be established and once to die providing pathos and motivation to our protagonists (which are not our player characters mind, but the signature heroes.) It's pretty much the definition of WIR. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
That's almost worse!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=