WIR? (Spoilers)

Narcissism.

Good call. Besides the egocentricity and fragile self-esteem, narcissists have a tendency to attach themselves to important groups or institutions, e.g. the Midnight Club, to improve their own standing. That doesn't preclude male chauvinism as another of Praetorian Percy's many issues, of course.

I suspect "Master Midnight" might well suffer from everything.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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We keep forgetting this because Ms. Liberty (or Miss Liberty, who names these characters?) because her "poor impulse control," bratty attitude and other characterisation is not in the game. Off the top of my head, she shows up once in Mender Silos' SF where she doesn't do much, one in a Shadow Spider mission where she doesn't do much, and once in the Mender Tesseract TF (I think) to protect her mother (she fails) and in none of these situations is much characterisation given to her.

This is a running problem with all the surviving Eight, as a point of fact. BABs probably has it the worst. He shows up in ONE mission where his personality is irrelevant as Crimson Revenant could work for any signature hero, and then... I don't know anything else about him. I've seen it written that he fought a war on drugs at some point for some reason, but that's all in background info on the site that I last read seven years ago. Apparently Manticore is supposed to be sarcastic, at least judging by the Manticore Automaton, but I haven't noticed. I haven't the foggiest who Numina is supposed to be as I don't even remember the one missions she shows up in, Synapse shows up to throw meta-game jokes at me and ask me if I'm using inspirations and... I honestly don't even remember the Statesman showing up at all, aside from the Silos TF where everyone shows up and no-one has any real characterisation.

My point is that... Yeah, we keep forgetting about these people and the intricate interplay among them, because no-one saw it fit to ESTABLISH these characters because we starter threatening to kill them. I didn't read the comic books, I haven't read the novels, I don't know who these people are, aside from "important." I know more about frikkin' Fusionette than I do about any of these guys. I know more about DILLO!

I guess that's part of why SSA3 comes off like so much torture porn - because we're being given these one-dimensional, one-note characters (as far as I can deduce) and we're being TOLD that this is horrible and we should feel horrible and oh, no, woe betide poor Statesman! Won't someone think of poor unfortunate Mary Sue! But as much as I don't know about the Freedom Phalanx... I know even less about Alexis. I know she's a damsel in distress that I've been given little reason to care about, whose death is going to hurt other people I've been given little reason to care about. It comes off as mean, because rather than grace these characters with character development, we're tossing their bones in the grinder to fuel the kind of superficial drama which hinges on shock value.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Dry your tears, old chap. You may be rather late to this thread, but you can still attempt to troll it if you put more effort into your posts.

I mentioned it

It's an example of a Woman in refrigerator trope when the death is soly to motivate another character (usually male), had she died for some other reason than to motivate Manticore or Statesman it wouldn't be a WIR.

So if it was a male, then it would of been an entirely different trope.

So the point is, get over it, everything can be linked to a trope.

"The black guy always dies first" is also a trope.

Not all tropes are value-neutral. Some are so problematic that they need to be retired.

Troll? No, I'm here to ridicule hypocrisy and promote equal opportunity death which I've begun to refreshingly see in this game.

Hello, see:

Precisely, and the mere fact that TVTropes has called BS on the so-called misogyny of Women in Refrigerators by making the relevant trope gender neutral just kind of proves how bogus of a concern it really is. Seriously, I could think of several points where male characters (like the old mentor) have died to motivate other male characters (Obi-Wan Kenobi, Uncle Ben). Unless they were hiding something from the whole world (or universe, depending on genre), I doubt they count as women.

Oh shush, you've been painting with the broadest brush in this whole thread, counting just about every female death as a "Woman in a Refrigerator." It seems like only men are allowed to die in your universe. Unfortunately, nature laughs at you considering that the death toll in this world remains at a constant 100% and 50% of the species is female.

Concerning the Black Dude Dies First, it's becoming something of a Discredited Trope these days. As the page states:

Really, if there's any trope that matches Miss Liberty's death, it's very much Red Shirt. As Sam said, she really wasn't even a character. Little to no characterization, practically nonexistant presence and existing for no reason other than to be killed off. Seems very Red Shirty to me.

And that highlights a big problem about the hero signature characters in this game: They don't have any characterization. Stealing Sam's words, I know about Fusionette more than I know about any existing member of the Freedom Phalanx or Vindicators. They're completely empty personalities. Hell, characterization is one of the things CoV actually got right: I know just about everything about Lord Recluse and his lieutenants there is to know, because they're characters that're actually fleshed out. Same goes for the Praetorians. But Statesman?

He might as well be a cardboard standie.

So it's pure irony that you're constantly linking to TV Tropes to promote your agenda when that site's entry for the phenomenon lists an overwhelming proportion of female examples from comics? That's hardly equal opportunity.

Are you sure you're here for an argument?

Did you look at the link in my initial post? Either Men Are the Expendable Gender or only women get Stuffed in the Fridge. It's a rather odd double standard.

Note that trope also highlights Throwaway Countries and Doomed Hometowns as examples, so unless you're saying that these countries and towns are predominantly female, I'm finding "WiR" even more ludicrous.

Yet you're the only one who's trying to argue that. Trying to reframe the phenomenon into an either/or proposition simply doesn't hold water.

Really? Because Smersh was naming practically every female death as fridging. Even if the death didn't motivate anyone.

It's all silliness, really, and that's why when I write stuff, the Grim Reaper isn't picky in who or how they die.

I have never claimed that all female deaths are fridging.

Please quote where it appears I said that, because that's certainly not what I intended to say.

Well, you got pretty damn liberal with the term.

I mean, Gwen friggin' Stacy? Seriously? If she really counts, Spider-Man has a whole WAREHOUSE of fridges and not all of them are female. The guy angsts over EVERYTHING.

Ah, so you admit that I didn't say what you said I did, and that you are wrong. Glad to hear it.

You still thought Gwen Stacey was WIR. So you were wrong. And thusly everything you say is wrong.

And really, when did you start to think Gwen Stacey was a WIR? It's a pretty new trope and all.

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That page is pretty awesome.

I've made my definition of WIR. By my definition (which I stated upthread and is primarily interested in the attitudes of the authors), Gwen Stacy *was* WIR. I have my threshold for it, which I have stated. I have also admitted that Gwen Stacy is a threshold case - I recognize that, while I put her in that category, not everyone will, and that she is a subject for debate on the issue.

(For the record, if female characters are defined primarily by their relationship to the male protagonist and are killed off primarily to spur character growth, I consider that a fridging. It's more egregious if the character exists in the plot only to die and spur character growth, but that is not the only example. The awesome rampage of John Clark in Without Remorse? Caused by a fridging.)

You may choose to debate my definition of fridging. But since you are not the final arbiter of what constitutes a refrigerator (nor am I), you don't get to say with impunity that I am wrong. Show me I am wrong. Prove that I'm wrong. Don't assert it without backing it up.

Also, I consider twelve and a half years to not be new. Therefore, you are wrong about everything you say, if that's the standard you wish to apply.

Forgive me if I didn't take notes about when I decided to categorize a particular comic book story under a particular trope - it's not something that I mark on my calendar. It has been some time, perhaps four or five years.

To put it very simply: I can think of a half-dozen examples off the top of my head wherein a male protagonist comes home to find his wife/girlfriend/daughter tortured/kidnapped/violated/dead with a taunting note from the antagonist. I cannot think of a gender-flipped version off the top of my head. Hence, women in refrigerators.

(It's arguable that Uncle Ben was, in fact, stuffed in a fridge by my standards. That's another debate entirely.)

...Um....

No.

This. Seriously. This so much.