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Because you say so?
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Originally Posted by Smersh
Wrong.
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Because it doesn't have to be a pattern. Each individual work can be considered.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Because you say so?
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It doesn't matter if you put a woman in a fridge once or a hundred times, it's still a refrigerator.
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I'll take the opportunity to point out that I hated the First Ward as well. The Praetorian Seer network is an industrial-scale refrigerator. The 'hilarious' Master Midnight is so misogynistic that I would have rather chosen sides against him, even if the result would have been becoming an unwilling member of the Carnival of Vengeance. Sorceress Serene's cabal is stuffed in a fridge as a part of her backstory. We get to put Katie Douglass back into her refrigerator.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
My point was that I'm hardly the only one. Not necessarily in the majority, mind you, just far from the only one to feel that way.
Here's the thing: I'm done waiting. I've waited for this game to get out of its depressing rut since I18 launched and I found myself crushing dreams, killing people and having to choose between two doomed ideologies. I sat through First Ward and the starting contacts in the revamped zones, and it's just more of the same depressing, dreary narrative that I'm simply sick and tired of. I don't play this game to bring my own spirits down, so I'm done. If the SSAs suddenly grow cheery and happy and uplifting in SSA4, then too bad so sad. I won't know about it, because it will be too little too late. Actually, let me put this another way: I used to be a fan of Naruto, way back when. I spent FOUR ******* YEARS waiting for the resolution to a particular plot thread, and when it finally arrived, it was butchered to hell and back. I'm not waiting for plot resolution ever again. If they leave their plots on downer cliffhangers, then that's the last I want to know about them. And why would I want more? The sales pitch is "Stay tuned, because it's only gonna' get worse!" Ha! |
Compared to the RWZ arcs, where Sefu Tendaji's death would not have been a fridging if his and Captain Dietrich's genders had been flipped, I would have to say that someone on the writing team has a big obsession with refrigerators. I can't say I care for it.
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Eh, I think this was more of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they let them fight her, people would complain that you're beating up an old woman.|
Originally Posted by Venture
I do think Alexis' death is exploitive, though, and was not very well-handled. The "negotiation" scenario is really not credible and even without the Liberty Belt she should have been able to at least try to fight back.
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So it wouldn't have worked either way.
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And? The point of my post, to which you merely responded "Wrong!" is that there's nothing wrong with a villain stuffing a woman in a fridge to get at his male opponent. The ONLY thing that is wrong with it is how often it happens to female characters vs. male characters. The trope itself would not even be called "Women in Refrigerators" if it happened as often to men in comics. |
Originally Posted by Smersh
Because it doesn't have to be a pattern. Each individual work can be considered.
It doesn't matter if you put a woman in a fridge once or a hundred times, it's still a refrigerator. |
It wasn't even clear what part of my post you thought was wrong. Do you think it IS the responsibility of every author in this genre to never again put a woman in a refrigerator? If so, why?
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She's younger than Sister Psyche, and nobody has any problems beating her up. You're not beating up an old woman, you're beating up a veteran hero who knows kung-fu. Her being middle-aged and retired would justify you being able to beat her up relatively easily (make her a boss instead of an EB) but if an old man with cancer can put up a fight, so should she.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Eh, I think this was more of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they let them fight her, people would complain that you're beating up an old woman.
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Originally Posted by Zem
It wasn't even clear what part of my post you thought was wrong. Do you think it IS the responsibility of every author in this genre to never again put a woman in a refrigerator? If so, why?
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Sefu's death served as a motivation for Deitrich to do something, how is that not WIR if they were gender swapped?|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Compared to the RWZ arcs, where Sefu Tendaji's death would not have been a fridging if his and Captain Dietrich's genders had been flipped, I would have to say that someone on the writing team has a big obsession with refrigerators. I can't say I care for it.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It think it's the responsibility of every author in this genre to think very carefully before they put a woman in a refrigerator. If they did this, the trope wouldn't be nearly as common, and so wouldn't be problematic. But they don't. They use it as a cheap shock tactic, just like this arc does.
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In a meta-sense yes, it did do that. However, he was not killed to get at Dietrich, or for teh evulz; he was killed because he was in the bad guy's way. He wasn't placed in the arc just to be killed off. His importance to the story doesn't begin and end with his death. His character isn't defined by his relationship to Dietrich. He was an active participant in the RWZ storyline from the beginning.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Sefu's death served as a motivation for Deitrich to do something, how is that not WIR if they were gender swapped?
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Reductio ad absurdum this late in the thread, after the WIR trope has been clearly established and numerous examples of it have been supplied, is pretty weak sauce.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
So, basically killing women is verboten.
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Sefu was the one Longbow I found likeable and he was in that arc pretty much for the sole reason of getting killed off. If it was Longbow Redshirt #5 I might have offed him myself, even on a bluer than blue bluesider (as Longbow is pretty much a villain group that is only tolerated because of Statesman/Ms. Liberty).
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
In a meta-sense yes, it did do that. However, he was not killed to get at Dietrich, or for teh evulz; he was killed because he was in the bad guy's way. He wasn't placed in the arc just to be killed off. His importance to the story doesn't begin and end with his death. His character isn't defined by his relationship to Dietrich. He was an active participant in the RWZ storyline from the beginning.
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I really don't think Master Midnight hates women.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
The 'hilarious' Master Midnight is so misogynistic that I would have rather chosen sides against him, even if the result would have been becoming an unwilling member of the Carnival of Vengeance.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Yeah, it's more like he hasn't got a clue about them |
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I really don't think Master Midnight hates women.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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He's not a misogynist as such, but destroying the entire Midnight Squad essentially to impress the object of his unrequited affection does suggest he's got ... issues.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I really don't think Master Midnight hates women.
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There's always time for logic.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Reductio ad absurdum this late in the thread, after the WIR trope has been clearly established and numerous examples of it have been supplied, is pretty weak sauce.
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The great thing about liberating-sounding noise is you can point fingers without actually having to clearly define what you are complaining about or how to fix it.
I respect many of the posters in this thread. However, I also think this thread is a bunch of moralizing prattle. I'm sorry some folks don't like the story, but accusing the developers of losing to personal demons because some d-list former hero no one gave a rat's tail about until 5 minutes ago bought the farm, is just too much for me to get behind.
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No, he just doesn't respect them as anything other than sexual objects. Women exist for him to pursue and attain. He certainly refuses to treat them as actual people, or to consider for even a second their thoughts on the matter.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I really don't think Master Midnight hates women.
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That's also misogyny, in my book. It's treating women as lesser beings. And I'll give you three guesses as to what his reaction to rejection by women would look like. The first two don't count.
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Bit late in the thread to bring this up I suppose, but under the topic of appearances by Miss Liberty, wasn't she related to the Winter Event several years ago? It was the second go around (just remembered that it was the first after CoV came out while writing) and the event started out with her giving out the Jingle Jet Packs, many of which were stolen by Black Scorpion and Silver Mantis (so the Villains could have some, too). After a while, the Gamester appeared, claiming to be inspired by her generosity, and the big gift boxes came out.
Again, I know it's a little late, and a minor point. I just thought it was odd that this was so completely forgotten.
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sorry, i havent run the arc yet... but are you talking about the trainer in atlas? She died?!?!
/sadface if true.
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Originally Posted by Teeko
sorry, i havent run the arc yet... but are you talking about the trainer in atlas? She died?!?!
/sadface if true. |
Not her, her mom.
I explained the arc to a friend, who is a Premium player, and all he said was 'How many babies are you going to steal candy from as an encore?"
Really, a villain killing an old lady didn't strike us as being any more surprising than robbing a bank or even saying 'Curses, foiled again.' If the writing here was to surprise or shock or anger anyone... well, reading the thread I guess it did, but I don't see it.
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Originally Posted by Teeko
sorry, i havent run the arc yet... but are you talking about the trainer in atlas? She died?!?!
/sadface if true. |
No, the Atlas Park trainer is fine. There is/was another character with a very similar name (Ms. versus Miss) who actually doesn't figure into the game much at all, and doesn't actually wear a costume or refer to herself by her super hero name. That's the one who died.
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Any more than, say, the lengths Scirocco might go to in order to impress/win the heart of Ghost Widow?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
He's not a misogynist as such, but destroying the entire Midnight Squad essentially to impress the object of his unrequited affection does suggest he's got ... issues.
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Or Captain Castillo for Doc Delilah?
The Clockwork King for Penny Yin?
Anti-Matter for Dominatrix?
They follow the standards under which they normally operate. It'd doubtful that most lady villains worth their salt would be impressed by a romantic gesture of flowers and chocolate.
Even heroside, what lengths would the good guys go to for the women they love?
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
He's not a misogynist as such, but destroying the entire Midnight Squad essentially to impress the object of his unrequited affection does suggest he's got ... issues.
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Oh certainly. He's the archetypical creepy d&d nerd who had never met a woman outside of his testostetone driven fantasies and has constructed his own (very wrong) brand of romantisism. He treats women (and technically everyone else) like objects that solely exist to satisfy his desires. I'm sure there's a word for this (plain ol' chauvanism?), I just don't think it's misogeny.
Thought for the day:
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I would say that Deitrich is entirely incidental to Sefu's character, that's the entire reason why his death has more meaning and much more weight. Sefu stood strong and tall, Sefu move the plot, Sefu fought for what he believed in, even when his superiors were against it. Sefu was a hero who died fighting the good fight, he went out swinging. He went out like a hero. That's why his death works.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
In a meta-sense yes, it did do that. However, he was not killed to get at Dietrich, or for teh evulz; he was killed because he was in the bad guy's way. He wasn't placed in the arc just to be killed off. His importance to the story doesn't begin and end with his death. His character isn't defined by his relationship to Dietrich. He was an active participant in the RWZ storyline from the beginning.
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That Captain Deitrich was affected by Sefu's death is entirely incidental and besides the point. Sefu didn't die to spur her into action. He died in the line of duty, and in a completely unrelated turn of events, it was revealed that hardass Deitrich actually really liked the guy. But this was still incidental to his character and his story.
Sefu's death is not a means to an end. It is an end in itself. Sefu didn't die to move the plot along. He died because that's what happens in a war. He died because the Nemesis troops are not just a funny marching band. They are real, genuine killers like they should have been all along. He died because their base was overwhelmed. Sefu died because he chose to put his life in the line of fire. Sefu died... And then unrelated things happened.
Aelxis died because she was an "object." She died because she was a plot point. She died because someone NEEDED to die to move the plot along. She died because we needed to hurt Manticore and Statesman. In fact, "she died" isn't accurate. She was murdered.
Here's the distinction: Sefu died in the line of duty. Alexis was kidnapped and murdered.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It could have been written better and still have had a depressing outcome. And I think that's OK.
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