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That is the trick! Marvel and DC have tried. But they tend to lose money on them. The sad part is, for it to work, I think whatever company actually tries to do it will have to risk losing money on such a title(s) first before it starts to make money.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
I don't think anyone (aside from Venture, who is Venture after all) said making comics more appealing to females would "ruin" them. In fact, comics are already "ruined" all by themselves by the fact that they're attached to a stigma that assumes only little boys and nerdy losers read them. Interestingly enough, this is also true about role-playing games and it's really hard to find a female who's legitimately interested in something like D&D. I've met them, so they exist, but as I established, society at large assumes that reading comics will make you into a loser and thus should be shunned.
I'm all for adding more female friendly comics, but the trick is to get them interested and snap out of that societal assumption that comics will destroy their social life. |
It would also, imo, require having a writer/artist team that can stick with a project for a long haul and likely have some long term plans.
Sadly, in the state of comics today, sticking with a comic long term usually feels like they're with it for a year and then move on.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Well, a spontaneous change in target audience doesn't have to only be a shift towards women. It can be a shift towards teenagers, dumb people or dolphins for all it matters. It was just an example (since any comic book example I bring up is flawed by the fact that I've never really read American comic books).|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I believe the word you're looking for in this case is "dumbs down." I'm pretty sure they didn't do that to appeal to girls, unless the "girls" in question are still in the third grade.
|
That said, many of the 3e and especially 4e changes were stated as a deliberate push to appeal more to female games. Which is cool. I just miss the fantasy art of the 90s.
Either way, I don't think their point was that women are dumb. But if your new target audience is "people who've never thought about picking up an RPG" you will probably have to start them off on something light.
I don't know if they were successful. I stopped caring. Sad! *sniff*
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
But purely from a practical standpoint, there will have to be less of the stuff Bob likes (cos more panels/pages/issues of the comic is taken up with Alice stuff, which Bob isn't interested in). Unless more resources are thrown at it.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
To quote Luthor:
Wrong! If done correctly, it is usually possible to add elements that Alice will like to a story or game without removing the elements that Bob likes. |
My point was: making a change to the way you do things purely so you can be 'More popular' is generally considered bad advice. I'm all for things changing and evolving but those changes should be done for the right reasons.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Quote:
I also beleive that an artist should follow their own vision and do what pleases them, not some hypothetical audience.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
My point was: making a change to the way you do things purely so you can be 'More popular' is generally considered bad advice. I'm all for things changing and evolving but those changes should be done for the right reasons.
|
Unless the artist in question, for whatever commercial reasons, has already decided to attempt to appeal to a given audience. Then by all means, they should create a product designed to appeal to the audience they are courting.
I have no doubt that the people who work on, say, the Avengers comics are artists who want to do whatever makes Avengers stories great without restriction. But they are restricted; by the suits and the bean counters. The product is commercial by design. That's why characters can't stay dead. That's why we see Wolverine Proliferation and Massive Crossovers and all that. That's why a given writer can't just say, "here is where the story of the Avengers ends" or make any change to the comic that some other writer or editor can't come along and retcon with "Mephisto makes everyone forget."
In that particular environment (as opposed to say, independent comics or webcomics or fanfiction) it behooves you to have products for every audience that you can afford to produce for.
No one cares if creators of independent comics or webcomics stuff women in refrigerators, because they aren't shooting themselves in the foot by doing so.
In other news:
I think I have figured out the entire reason for WiR: it is performed instead of divorce. I'm (semi-) serious.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
More resources, plox.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
But purely from a practical standpoint, there will have to be less of the stuff Bob likes (cos more panels/pages/issues of the comic is taken up with Alice stuff, which Bob isn't interested in). Unless more resources are thrown at it.
|
It's worth it.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I (like some others here) feel 4e is a dumbed down version of D&D. The analogy I make with it is that it s the difference in a video game made for a desktop/full computer with keyboard and mouse versus a video game made for a console system. Its controls are more basic, and detail was omitted in the interests of speed.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
That said, many of the 3e and especially 4e changes were stated as a deliberate push to appeal more to female games. Which is cool.
|
So ... they thought women wanted a less complicated game? If I was a woman, I don't know if I'd appreciate that.
Honestly, I can't see anything in 4e that would make it more attractive to women. Perhaps there was a corporate decision at WotC to shift art and writing styles in the products - I could see that. But the nuts and bolts of the product itself? I boggle at that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I don't have time now to catch up with the rest of this, but as far as D&D 4E goes, remember this is coming from the same company that once produced the DB RPG Everway, which was (not kidding) actually marketed as "will appeal to women gamers because it doesn't require math".
| So ... they thought women wanted a less complicated game? If I was a woman, I don't know if I'd appreciate that. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
It is indeed Yin to prefer simpler game mechanics, so that you can concentrate on the storytelling and characters.
It is Yang to truly enjoy and obsess over probabilities and ways to min/max.
It is Yin to prefer character generation in the vein of, "I want a character that is a streetwise theif from the mean streets that has yet to lose all of his faith in humanity and is truly seeking a Hero to admire."
It is Yang to prefer character generation in the vein of, "I want to trade off wearing heavy expensive armor for having a high Dexterity and being able to avoid counterattack completely by one-shotting my opponent with backstab damage."
Truly I have met people of either sex with various mixtures of Yin and Yang.
It is indeed a wise manufacturer who invests in pleasing both audiences, at the cost of neither.
Om.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
OK, I read what you said earlier about this male/female euphemism thing, but seeing in print, as a way of communicating with other people, it looks insanely dumb to me.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
It is indeed Yin to prefer simpler game mechanics, so that you can concentrate on the storytelling and characters.
It is Yang to truly enjoy and obsess over probabilities and ways to min/max. It is Yin to prefer character generation in the vein of, "I want a character that is a streetwise theif from the mean streets that has yet to lose all of his faith in humanity and is truly seeking a Hero to admire." It is Yang to prefer character generation in the vein of, "I want to trade off wearing heavy expensive armor for having a high Dexterity and being able to avoid counterattack completely by one-shotting my opponent with backstab damage." |
First of all, this is a horrid example of what you're championing. They removed option. They completely stripped out the complexity, they did not add things that allowed people who didn't like the complexity to be more successful, while keeping the complexity for those who liked it.
Your post suggests that because complexity was present, people could not play D&D with a focus on roleplay, which is ridiculous. People could not only do that, they could mix those two styles together. Sure, the party might have friction between players if you had min/maxers and roleplayers together, but that is more a function of the players than of the game.
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| It is indeed a wise manufacturer who invests in pleasing both audiences, at the cost of neither. |
I feel like I had been eating Corn Flakes for 20 years, and one day I bought Corn Flakes and in the box were little cubes of wheat bran. The makers decided that bran cubes had a better cross-demographic popularity, so they came up with this new cereal but started calling it Corn Flakes. It tastes OK, but it's sure not the Corn Flakes I want.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You mistake my intent, young grasshopper.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Your post suggests that because complexity was present, people could not play D&D with a focus on roleplay, which is ridiculous. |
I do not suggest that the changes to 4e were the correct way of doing things, rather the opposite.
I personally like 4e. I would like it more and play it more if it did not say, "Dungeons and Dragons" on the box. I call it 'The American Godzilla of rpgs'.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I won't get into the whole 3e vs 4e edition war, but suffice it to say that my AD&D, 3e and Pathfinder collections are extensive. I bought the 4e core books gleefully (hey, I'd played the "preview" game Star Wars Saga, 4a was a slam dunk!), went "..the hell?", played a few games just to make sure, then pawned off the books.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
WotC lost me as a customer. I have not bought anything related to 4e. I have an immense library off pre-4e material - I probably spent thousands of dollars on D&D over the 20 years or so. I borrowed or pirated 4e stuff because my friends are playing it. I am enjoying the campaign, but not because of the game mechanics, and if I never play in another 4e campaign, I won't miss it.
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The only books in RPG history I didn't want to keep on my shelves.
"It is indeed a wise manufacturer who invests in pleasing both audiences, at the cost of neither" might be a nice goal to aspire to, but it's a lot easier said than done. I guess White Wolf could maybe be a decent example, if they still existed.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Yeah, Saga Edition and 4e made me die a little inside. Talk about the most bland, dumbed down system imaginable. If they thought that would bring in girls just because it was "math light," then it's clear that the guys at WotC are sexist pigs. Being female doesn't mean being "dumber."
Quote:
At first we were ticked because we'd just spent a whole bunch of money on 3.5, and 4e seemed like a blatant cash-grab. Then I actually saw the system and decided it wasn't even worth *ahem* borrowing.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I won't get into the whole 3e vs 4e edition war, but suffice it to say that my AD&D, 3e and Pathfinder collections are extensive. I bought the 4e core books gleefully (hey, I'd played the "preview" game Star Wars Saga, 4a was a slam dunk!), went "..the hell?", played a few games just to make sure, then pawned off the books.
|
Quote:
| "It is indeed a wise manufacturer who invests in pleasing both audiences, at the cost of neither" might be a nice goal to aspire to, but it's a lot easier said than done. I guess White Wolf could maybe be a decent example, if they still existed. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Yeah, Saga Edition and 4e made me die a little inside. Talk about the most bland, dumbed down system imaginable. If they thought that would bring in girls just because it was "math light," then it's clear that the guys at WotC are sexist pigs. Being female doesn't mean being "dumber."
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
And if Bob can't accept gender equality, then he might need to go back to his cave and rethink his life |
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
But purely from a practical standpoint, there will have to be less of the stuff Bob likes
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
May I butt in here?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
...
I feel like I had been eating Corn Flakes for 20 years, and one day I bought Corn Flakes and in the box were little cubes of wheat bran. The makers decided that bran cubes had a better cross-demographic popularity, so they came up with this new cereal but started calling it Corn Flakes. It tastes OK, but it's sure not the Corn Flakes I want. |
Corn Flakes makes money off of selling the same thing to people to eat every day. their business requires no innovation to stay afloat.
WOTC makes zero money on players who already have all the 3e and 3.5e stuff they want from official sources and are spending their cash on third party brand items.
WOTC makes money when they introduce 4e and 4.5e (D&D Essentials).
If you buy 4e, you can still play 3e and 3.5e. But now you can play 4e also.
If corn flakes changes their product at all, they lose 100% of their customer base and income and have to re-earn it, along with more people to make up for the money they invested in such a scheme. This is what is known as a BAD MOVE.
If WOTC changes their product, they lose no money, but they do still have to sell products. Each and every product they sell has to re-earn their customer base, because they can't sell you another copy of the player's handbook after you ate the last one.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
I don't think 4e is marketed to girls due to rule system changes. The aesthetic changes, maybe.
Anyway all this talk of fridges made me wonder whether fridging is really significantly different than Death by Newbery Medal. See also The Plot Reaper.
I also decided to play with Photoshop.
I feel like I have a fair bit of experience to contribute to this conversation but I don't know if I have the brainpower to be coherent so bear with me. =)
First, as far as comics that appeal to women not working for men or failing because of the comic format I present elfquest as counterpoint. Though that may make it the exception that proves the rule. heh. And it is fantasy ratehr than superhero despite being by marvel and by a couple who met in the letter to the editor section of Silver Surfer (love that).
As to the genre of superheroes needing more strong female leads, yes I agree. I really wish there were more. Every time I see a reboot of wonder woman or bionic woman or something, it makes me wish much more than a reboot of say the hulk does that they would invent a new female superhero. Because we need more women and we have plenty of men. One of the reasons I love City is that there are so many more women characters than in most comics. Even among the NPCs there are quite a few women. Personally, I hope States or Citadel go down. States because we're the incarnates. Citadel, because I've always felt he was kind of lame. I sort of love how PS238 has the running gag about flying super strong invulnerable heroes being assigned numbers because there are so many of them. Babs, Citadel and States all fall into that overlap for me. So one of them biting it would be good. And I like Babs. But I'm really worried it will be him. For many reasons stated in this thread and elsewhere I can't see it being either of the two women.
For the two people who said they didn't remember a story with Alexis, Take a villain on the Mender Tesseract pseudo taskforce. You get to fight both Mrs. Liberty and Ms. Liberty back to back. It's a fun one. Sadly, basically no character development, but still a fun mission.
On WiR, honestly, it doesn't bother me, but only because I'm immune to it. I see bad writers do it all the time with not only women, but kids, puppies, kittens, etc. anything that is a cheap and easy way to get a rise out of someone. I don't think it's sexist at its core (though it definitely ends up slanted that way as a matter of practicality due to the sex of the writers and the core audience), but that it is just a cheap and easy way for a bad writer to establish a villain as mean or give the hero a reason for revenge. Pretty pathetic. But realistically speaking, it is far from the worst excesses of the fate of women in the superhero genre. Anyone familiar with Angel Falls and how it has basically devolved into the "city of lesbians and heroine pets of villainesses"? And I won't bother to mention some of the pure atrocities out there directly. Thank god CoH is teen rated. That's all I have to say on that.
As far as the subtopic of one of the eight dies and anyone else is just collateral damage... Honestly, I'm ok with that. If you're watching or reading Harry Potter and "random house ravenclaw person #2" dies does anyone give a sh**? In any TV show when a character not in the opening credits dies, its just a plot point. You have major characters and recurring characters and extras. If CoH was a TV show then Alexis Cole-Duncan was an extra. She was not even really a recurring character. At best a "special guest star". In SciFi we call them redshirts for a reason. I'm totally ok with City having redshirts. As pointed out, they're not all women (ala first ward). Yes, this one was badly written, much more than say Cerulean, and the death was sheer pettiness as a setup for what comes in the next episode. I'm 99.999% sure we will all find ways that whatever Malaise wanted to achieve could have been done leaving her alive. And to me that's the real crime. It was a wasted opportunity. Not only was it a stupid way to try and emotionalize the moment, but the logic of it is literally deserving of ridicule. And would be just as pathetic if it was manticore killed to cheese off Psyche rather than alexis to cheese off statesman. It just is a sucky scene and I really expected more from them after how cool part 2 was and how the lead in for this one was pretty fun with the multi-stage outdoor fights. Then the big climax and supposed payoff was like someone taking a crap on the monitor. pbbblllltttt-squish.
Also, partly off topic, at Samuel Tow, if you want a comic with strong female leads who don't have horrible things happen to them in a way that breaks them, try reading elfquest. And a novel I would recommend: The Deed of Paksennarion. Wish I could point you at solid superhero content since both are fantasy. I you find any, let me know. =)
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
Oh for ****'s sake.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
May I butt in here?
Corn Flakes makes money... |
It was an analogy comparing how I (would) feel about two things. It was not an analogy comparing Kellogg's and WoTC. Breaking it down as if it was a comparison of those two things is completely pointless.
Jesus.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You said, "I feel like I had been eating Corn Flakes for 20 years, and one day... "|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oh for ****'s sake.
It was an analogy comparing how I (would) feel about two things. It was not an analogy comparing Kellogg's and WoTC. Breaking it down as if it was a comparison of those two things is completely pointless. Jesus. |
directly comparing your experience of eating cereal to the experience of playing games.
One is the same every time.
One is different every time.
Comparing the two, or even your experience relative to the two, is like comparing two things that are opposite! Because it IS comparing two things that are opposite!
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
Quote:
Entirely anecdotal, but I know more women who play(ed) WoD than all other RPGs combined. So I guess they struck a better balance. To be fair, I didn't follow them closely since nWoD but I do know CCP has all but shut them down.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
How so? I hope you're not referring to the "New World of Darkness" crap, because it was crap and certainly did alienate players.
|
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
Look, there are things about CoH that I like, and which distinguish it from other games. If there weren't, I would have no loyalty to it - I could substitute any other game and it would offer me the same things I enjoy. Every game system has distinguishing features that give it this sort of consistency and distinction from its competition. D&D 3e had a consistency of features. D&D 4e has a consistency of features.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
You said, "I feel like I had been eating Corn Flakes for 20 years, and one day... "
directly comparing your experience of eating cereal to the experience of playing games. One is the same every time. One is different every time. Comparing the two, or even your experience relative to the two, is like comparing two things that are opposite! Because it IS comparing two things that are opposite! |
Claiming it's different every time I play it without acknowledging that it offers consistency of experience (and consistently different experience from other games) would take willful ignorance. This is what I am talking about.
In any case, this was not even what you rebutted, going off into garbage comparing the business models of a cereal and game maker, thereby stretching the effective context of my analogy beyond all possible recognition. In effect you built a strawman argument out of a simple analogy by arguing extensions of it that were never meant to apply.
Your post was dumb. That you argued against the analogy itself (badly) without any clear intent to argue something about either WiR, sexism in products (like D&D) or like/dislike of 4e D&D. As a result, you threadjacked a topic that was already about three steps removed from the OT. So your post was both dumb and massively off-topic.
I won't be responding to you about this again. Not in this thread at least.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
This doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Entirely anecdotal, but I know more women who play(ed) WoD than all other RPGs combined.
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
You said, "I feel like I had been eating Corn Flakes for 20 years, and one day... "
directly comparing your experience of eating cereal to the experience of playing games. One is the same every time. One is different every time. Comparing the two, or even your experience relative to the two, is like comparing two things that are opposite! Because it IS comparing two things that are opposite! |
John "Protean" Hegner just said on the lore panel at the player summit that he was working on Katie Douglas' story right now, and that they wanted to leave a cliffhanger at the end of FW.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I'm all for adding more female friendly comics, but the trick is to get them interested and snap out of that societal assumption that comics will destroy their social life.