WIR? (Spoilers)
On the contrary, these are examples of "WiR Syndrome", especially the example of Elektra, which had a distinct impact on Daredevil. (Supergirl's death's impact on Superman was partially muted because it happened in a cross-series mini-series that involved the destruction of nearly all parallel earth universes (implying uncounted billions dead) and the more explicit death of dozens of well-known costumed heroes.)
I don't understand where this notion that the trope only applies to crappy deaths comes from. From the Wikipedia entry on "WiR Syndrome" (with working citation link). What this says to me is that examples of WiR Syndrome can indeed include dying a heroic death. What matters is that it's a woman, and that often the death serves to propel development of a male character with whom the female was associated. She can be taken out wimpering or go down fighting, it's still an example of this trope. |
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
In that case, you're right. If they're going to have any female character in any continuity except their own, single universe, any and all female deaths are WIR!
Therefore it goes back to, WIR is the stupidest trope they ever thought of.
Batman has "died" or taken out of commission and it effected everyone. They also continue to mention it, when it happens.
Yup. people looking way to much into things trying to find problems in something where there is none then.
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So what your saying is anything bad that happens to a female character is WIR when mentioned at all by any other character.
![]() In that case, you're right. If they're going to have any female character in any continuity except their own, single universe, any and all female deaths are WIR! |
I don't know how you get that from what I said (or quoted).
Edit: There are a lot of tropes documented, and there sheer quantity makes some of them perhaps questionable variations on one another. I don't have a problem with this trope - I think it has enough examples where it fits to justify its existence. What I don't agree with is the automatic assumption that (a) the existence of the trope is direct evidence of sexism, in or out of comics, or (b) that any given occurrence of it automatically implies sexist tendencies (accidental or not) on the part of the author. I think its seeming prevalence in comics may be a symptom of the fact that comics are written predominantly for male readers primarily by male writers, leading to a predominance of male lead characters. Whether it's then intentional that this trope's plot element might resonate with that audience specifically, as a story element any use "fridging" is automatically going to be gender biased because male characters are most likely to be depicted as emotionally attached to female characters. Only depicting villains harming a hero's children would probably create stronger tension or hate, and most costumed crime fighters don't have kids.
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While you and I are broadly on the same side here, that's not at all what I said, nor is that what the trope comes down to.
I don't know how you get that from what I said (or quoted). Edit: There are a lot of tropes documented, and there sheer quantity makes some of them perhaps questionable variations on one another. I don't have a problem with this trope - I think it has enough examples where it fits to justify its existence. What I don't agree with is the automatic assumption that (a) the existence of the trope is direct evidence of sexism, in or out of comics, or (b) that any given occurrence of it automatically implies sexist tendencies (accidental or not) on the part of the author. I think its seeming prevalence in comics may be a symptom of the fact that comics are written predominantly for male readers primarily by male writers, leading to a predominance of male lead characters. Whether it's then intentional that this trope's plot element might resonate with that audience specifically, as a story element any use "fridging" is automatically going to be gender biased because male characters are most likely to be depicted as emotionally attached to female characters. Only depicting villains harming a hero's children would probably create stronger tension or hate, and most costumed crime fighters don't have kids. |
WIR seems to be gails way of saying "women don't read comics because..." when it seems to me, people are reading less and less, and this is a medium generally (now a days anyways) considered for kids.
Which is likely why the reboots continue to happen. New audience the other generation is moving on!
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You said heroic deaths were cases of it too, as they made use of Superman using Supergirls death to further the character, the same with Elektra.
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So what your saying is anything bad that happens to a female character is WIR when mentioned at all by any other character |
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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I don't understand where this notion that the trope only applies to crappy deaths comes from. From the Wikipedia entry on "WiR Syndrome" (with working citation link).
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As discussed earlier in this thread, here's how Gail Simone came to view the WIR Syndrome:
So, really for my own edification and with malice towards none, I started making a list of the superchicks who had gone down in one of those ways (ignoring for the moment the wives/girlfriends of superheroes - a whole 'nother problem). {...} When I realized that it was actually harder to list major female heroes who HADN'T been sliced up somehow, I felt that I might be on to something a bit ... well, creepy.{...} {M}ale superheroes ALSO get beat up, cut up, and killed up-an undeniable truth, I say. However, it's my feeling that a) the percentages are off. If there are only 50 major female superheroes, and 40 of them get killed/maimed/depowered, then that's more significant numerically than if 40 male characters get killed, since there are many times more of them total. And b) I can't quite shake the feeling that male characters tend to die differently than female ones. The male characters seem to die nobly, as heroes, most often, whereas it's not uncommon, as in Katma Tui's case, for a male character to just come home and find her butchered in the kitchen {emphasis added}. There are exceptions for both sexes, of course, but shock value seems to be a major motivator in the superchick deaths more often than not. |
(A) The female character goes down like a chump, because she's ambushed, outclassed, depowered, or otherwise behaving out of character;* In the original definition of the WIR Syndrome, sexual assault, torture, maiming, depowering, etc. also counted for qualification, but those are not applicable to this discussion about Miss Liberty's killing.
(B) The death* is "shocking", because of extreme violence or from-out-of-nowhere unpredictability, if not both;
(C) Another character, typically but not exclusively male, "benefits" in terms of development, from the hero receiving additional motivation or undergoing "growth" to the villain confirming evil nature and/or dangerous threat status; and
(D) Male characters rarely if ever receive the same treatment under similar circumstances (their deaths are more often heroic sacrifices, constantly mourned, or only temporary setbacks).
The heroic deaths of Supergirl, Elektra, Elasti-Girl, and Phoenix do not count as examples of Women in Refrigerators. I wish I could provide additional notable examples, but those are the only A-List ones I could think of off the top of my head.
Doing each other the courtesy of reading the posts in a thread before commenting in turn is the only way to prevent threads from turning into merry-go-rounds of repeated quotes.
Doing each other the courtesy of reading the posts in a thread before commenting in turn is the only way to prevent threads from turning into merry-go-rounds of repeated quotes.
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Perhaps it should occur to you that the accepted use of something can have evolved beyond the specific nature attributed to it by the person who coined the term. I did read that quote before. I did not take it as the accepted definition of "WiR Syndrome" by broader users of the term, exactly because it is not the definition quoted elsewhere, of which Wikipedia was simply a well-known example. Just as "WiR Syndrome" has gained a life of its own beyond the more broad concept of "WiR" (which seemingly pertains to any violent death or depowerment of a female character), so to I believe has the "Syndrome" version. Despite the fact that Gail Simone originated it with that quote and subsequent definition, others have distilled the essence of the term (based on her origination) differently (and more broadly) after she explained it.
What this makes clear to me is that there is simply going to be no agreement over what constitutes an example of WiR (Syndrome). You can quite reasonably argue that you only accept the "original" version, while I feel I can quite reasonably argue I only accept the version "most people" are exposed to (via sites like Wikipedia and TVTropes). We could both argue we only care about "Syndrome" versions and not the "core" WiR.
I reject your inclusion of (A) as a requirement. All the others I accept.
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So, if it's not out of character for the person in question to get, say, ambushed and/or outclassed (for instance, an ex-heroine who passed the mantle - literally - years ago being mugged by an exceptionally powerful villain) it's not fridging?
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The real problem with determining what's in or out of character for Miss Liberty is that she doesn't have much of one established in the game. As Mr. Grey points out, her in-game appearances are few and do not sync with her reputation as a great heroine:
I generally look at the Women In Refrigerators as something to be considered when the character has, thus far, served as nothing BUT a victim.
Which, oddly, is what Miss Liberty has been for this game. There was a lot of talk of her being a great hero, but not much evidence of the fact in-game. She was never a presence. She was the silent, invisible hand guiding Freedom Corps and Longbow (though the latter has been dominated by her daughter's brash control), but you only get to hear about that through plaques and perhaps a few snippets of dialogue. Otherwise, she gets her face smashed in by an Ouroboros arc and now she gets killed in the Who Will Die arc. She's been little more than a victim for the game's story to progress. |
Perhaps it should occur to you that the accepted use of something can have evolved beyond the specific nature attributed to it by the person who coined the term. |
If you won't accept Simone's original criteria, perhaps you'll give some credit to the well-regarded comics critic Brian Cronin of Comic Book Resources:
How I decide that the “Women in Refrigerators” plot device has occurred is determined by the use of a bipartite test, half objective and half subjective. 1. (Objective) A female character is killed/maimed/tortured/r*ped etc. for the main purpose of eliciting a desired reaction from a male character. 2. (Subjective) I do not believe that the same death/maiming/torture/r*pe would have occurred had the female character been a male. The first part is, I believe, bad writing, in that it is extremely hokey to kill off a character (especially an established character) for the express purpose of just making another character react. I think you should have a purpose for a character’s death other than, “It would really make Character X mad!” (especially an established character). It seems rather cheap. However, it is only when the second part is met that I believe it stands out as atypically bad, as it is extra-cheesy when a character is killed/maimed/etc. specifically because it is felt that the action done to a WOMAN would be more shocking than if it happened to a man. You know, “Yeah, he’d be sad if a guy was killed in front of him, but if a WOMAN was killed in front of him, then you KNOW he would REALLY be upset!” If I don’t think both parts are met, then I think it is just typical bad writing, not having to do with gender issues, specifically. |
If anything, narrowing the criteria for the purposes of this discussion should focus the issue on how Miss Liberty is treated in-game by the devs, which was the OP's intent when he contrasted her arbitrary death with Praetorian Vanessa's heroic one.
Yes, she should have, and that bugged me too.
And yes, her death is a fridging. It was clearly set up to upset Statesman and discredit Manticore. If they had killed her for her "magic blood"... |
Kill two birds, one stone. Its villainy in efficiency.
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Hew in drag baby
If you won't accept Simone's original criteria, perhaps you'll give some credit to the well-regarded comics critic Brian Cronin of Comic Book Resources
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That double standard also applies to why female deaths in cases of fridging are always that much less heroic. |
If anything, narrowing the criteria for the purposes of this discussion should focus the issue on how Miss Liberty is treated in-game by the devs, which was the OP's intent when he contrasted her arbitrary death with Praetorian Vanessa's heroic one. |
I don't defend it as good writing at all.
(So far, it's not abundantly clear it will fulfill bullet (1) in mister Cronin's list, but I think it probably will.)
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"1. (Objective) A female character is killed/maimed/tortured/r*ped etc. for the main purpose of eliciting a desired reaction from a male character."
Ms. Liberty is as (or more) likely the target of the provocation as States.
"2. (Subjective) I do not believe that the same death/maiming/torture/r*pe would have occurred had the female character been a male."
Offing Mister (not Mr.) Liberty would be likely to provoke hot-headed loose canon daughter Ms. Liberty as well. Mister Liberty wouldn't have had the Liberty Belt and have been just as vulnerable.
"If I dont think both parts are met, then I think it is just typical bad writing, not having to do with gender issues, specifically."
Neither part are met, so just it's just bad writing and not W[I|i]R.
Nobody's playing deconstructionist with the WIR Syndrome - nobody's quoting Derrida, applying post-structuralist philosophy, or engaging in etymological shenanigans with close readings. Nor is anyone dragging in feminist theory or gender studies into this discussion. This is just by-the-book literary criticism. |
Clear criteria for qualification have been outlined |
It's entirely possible to address sexism in literary (ok, comics) criticism without condemning writers as misogynists. |
Fortunately I don't have that problem, so let me break it down for you. The people who write superhero comics are writing them to suit the aesthetic preferences of the people who actually buy them, which would be adolescent males. Before the women around here start hurling their copies of The Feminine Mystique at me, yes, there are exceptions but not enough to really matter, thus why they're called "exceptions". Publishers have tried making superhero comics for women; they don't sell. Not enough women want them. Someone upstream mentioned that even Wonder Woman doesn't actually sell well enough to warrant publication. DC only keeps it in print because of their wacky licensing agreement with her creator's estate. (AFAIK: if they stop publishing WW for one year, the rights revert and while her book may not sell she's too ensconced in the DC mythos for them to lose the character.) If you change a superhero comic enough to make it palatable to women it won't be a superhero comic any more, just like if I changed those trashy romance novels my mother reads enough to make them something a man would consider reading they wouldn't be trashy romance novels any more. They'd look like they were written by Mickey Spillane.
This isn't something that can be changed from the inside. DC and Marvel don't set social policy, they just publish funny books. If Ms. Simone wants girls to read superhero comics she should stop writing them and become a teacher or politician or the like. In the meanwhile, feminist culture police and their oh-so-sensitive fellow travelers should get over themselves and move on.
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When I used the word "deconstruct", I did not mean it in the philosophical sense, though I see why you could have inferred otherwise in the context of the thread. I meant it in the more literal sense of decomposing a story into elements. |
This is, by definition, a deconstruction of the story into independently recognizable, constituent parts. |
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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
The issue has emphasized the latter from Simone to the present, however, whenever it's been discussed at length or in any depth. It really isn't controversial.
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Clearly, I do not add that extra meaning to it that you do, and I reject that the extra meaning it is clearly the "correct" interpretation.
Edit: From the opening comments on Brian's page, which you linked to for the previously provided quote...
As I mentioned when I started this particular series, the point of these entries is to explain to folks what I mean by certain terms that I use often. If people like my particular terms and definitions, then they are certainly welcome to use them as well, of course. I bring this up because today’s entry is about a term that I have seen many people use in many different manners, which makes it difficult for me to use the term, as folks do not know how I am using it. Here I will give my definition, so you at least will know what I mean when I use the term in the future. The term, of course (you can see the title, natch), is “Women in Refrigerators.” |
Edit2: Whoops, in hurry and forgot to explain - I think this quote makes pretty clear that this "trope" is awfully mutable based on the perspective of the speaker, and arguing about what constitutes an example is going to lead to circular arguments. Which of course it already has here.
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It's definitely an exercise in deconstructionism, reading meanings into texts that aren't there.
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The WIR Syndrome exists as a phenomenon in mainstream superhero comics, but the factors contributing to this are numerous (and probably best left for a more detailed discussion in the Comic and Hero/Villain Culture forum). The plain fact is that too often female characters' deaths are treated differently from male ones', e.g. for shock value.
It is definitely an exercise in feminist theory |
Quote:
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The word has no non-philosophical meaning. It was coined by Derrida.
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de•con•struct tr.v. de•con•struct•ed, de•con•struct•ing, de•con•structs
1. To break down into components; dismantle.
2. To write about or analyze (a literary text, for example), following the tenets of deconstruction.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deconstruct
deconstruct — vb
1. to apply the theories of deconstruction to (a text, film, etc)
2. to expose or dismantle the existing structure in (a system, organization, etc)
Google "Define Deconstruct"
de•con•struct
Verb:
• Analyze (a text or a linguistic or conceptual system) by deconstruction, typically in order to expose its hidden internal assumptions...
• (in general use) Dismantle.
Yellow highlight for emphasis on the rather clearly recognized definition I was using.
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I think this quote makes pretty clear that this "trope" is awfully mutable based on the perspective of the speaker, and arguing about what constitutes an example is going to lead to circular arguments. Which of course it already has here.
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![](http://www.reelseo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Yeah-well-you-know-thats-just-like-your-opinion-man2-200x152.jpg)
"1. (Objective) A female character is killed/maimed/tortured/r*ped etc. for the main purpose of eliciting a desired reaction from a male character."
Ms. Liberty is as (or more) likely the target of the provocation as States. "2. (Subjective) I do not believe that the same death/maiming/torture/r*pe would have occurred had the female character been a male." Offing Mister (not Mr.) Liberty would be likely to provoke hot-headed loose canon daughter Ms. Liberty as well. Mister Liberty wouldn't have had the Liberty Belt and have been just as vulnerable. "If I dont think both parts are met, then I think it is just typical bad writing, not having to do with gender issues, specifically." Neither part are met, so just it's just bad writing and not W[I|i]R. |
If it was Statesman son versus his daughter, do you think it would trigger the same reaction from Statesman?
If it was Ms. Liberty's father versus her mother, do you think it would trigger the same reaction from Ms. Liberty?
If Statesman and Ms Liberty only close family member was male (and had magic running through the veins to go along with the story) do you think they would have killed him?
Since I think the same reaction would of happened if Miss Liberty was Mr Liberty, this isn't a case of fridging. This is a case of, Statesman only had one other relative alive besides Ms Liberty.
While she may of had a past in lore, it wasn't a character that anyone really knew about and never had a major part. She's more of a red shirt. An expendable character.
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One would think that a veteran heroine with several decades of experience wouldn't set herself up to be sucker-punched by an up-and-coming Anarchnos goon. What was Miss Liberty doing all those years, fighting grey-conned mobs in Atlas Park?
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We can argue about whether she should have an escape plan. Whether she should be decked out in Ballista bodyguards. Why her mediporter doesn't work (which I think is well established, those only work when the plot wants them to - read: when the writer remembers to take them into account). All those may be plot holes, inconsistencies or bad writing. But taking her down without a fight? That I can absolutely live with (in fact, as a primarily red-side player, I find it oddly refreshing).
I'm just surprised Blue Steel didn't show up at the end to undo everything you've accomplished. But I guess there's still time. The arc isn't over yet.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
As a side note, I can vaguely recall a couple of other examples of ex-heroes that are taken out without a fight in CoH. But the ones I remember are all male, so I guess it doesn't matter.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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If you won't accept Simone's original criteria, perhaps you'll give some credit to the well-regarded comics critic Brian Cronin of Comic Book Resources:
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2) This is, at best, wild conjecture. Personally, I think it would have been exactly the same if Miss Liberty had been 'Mr Liberty' instead. I also think they would still have picked that character to off to make whatever plot point they are going for. You may assume it would have been all different, but the fact remains: We can never know (short of going to Portal Corp and find the alternate earth where Jack decided Statesman should have a son instead of a daughter). It basically comes down to "I think the writers are jerks" vs. "I don't think the writers are jerks." Whichever assumption you pick say more about you than the writers.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Since there have been so many WIR cases in this thread, here are some counter-examples:
I don't understand where this notion that the trope only applies to crappy deaths comes from. From the Wikipedia entry on "WiR Syndrome" (with working citation link).
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