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lol!|
Originally Posted by dark_respite
on a related note, has anyone else actually read the tv tropes page for coh? Some of them are kinda fun. (and we're a trope namer - homing boulders is courtesy of us.) :d
michelle aka samuraiko/dark_respite |
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Originally Posted by tv tropes
When it comes to the Mission Architect, Sturgeon was a wild-eyed optimist.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Regardless of whether it is case of WIR or not, I personally was not satisfied with how Miss Liberty went out.
I have no problem with a hero going out while powerless after retirement per se (that's a lie, I do, but I acknowledge that it can be done well) if that is the emotional point of the story. I don't think it was handled well in this case; there was no story-based need for her to be utterly helpless. Underpowered and doomed is fine, but I would expect an ex-heroine in her fourties to at least try some kind of resourceful ploy.
But I would feel the same regardless of her sex.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
One of the big problems with comics is that they started out as male power fantasies for teenage boys, and it's the default setting that a lot of them still fall back on way too often - which is why more women don't read them.
They've been making some progress in more modern times, but they're going to need to change a lot more before they get a more equal gender split in their readership.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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My deffinition of WIR is that for the most part it's a joke trying to find issue where there is none. |
Originally Posted by Smersh
So, you're saying my opinion is invalid because... I haven't held it for long enough. The number of reasons why that might be the case is as long as my arm - Maybe I didn't read Spiderman until four or five years ago. Perhaps I was unaware of the WIR phenomenon until four or five years ago. Perhaps my opinions have changed as I've had life experiences and further educated myself.
In any event, that's a nonsensical argument and not worthy of consideration. I don't care how long you've held your opinions, whether it's been two weeks or twenty years. And your point is? I'm not an expert in comics, nor do I claim to be. Nor do I hew exclusively to the definition of that site, or that of TV Tropes. I've stated my definition at least twice in this thread, I see no reason to repeat it here. But I will say this: The original blog post about WIR tries to cover two scenarios, and the definition I use only covers one. Storm, Raven and the like having horrible things happen to them would be something to look at in terms of possible mistreatment of female characters at the hands of male authors, but they are not in the working definition I am using for WIR. I accept the blog post and TVTropes as illustrative, but not definitive. What I haven't seen is your definition of WIR, and whether you believe it to be an issue or not. I've made my declarative statements; I've laid my cards on the table. If you want to make a statement that you don't think it's a problem, we can discuss it on that level. But, if you make that statement, you don't get to tell me that my definition is wrong. I've defined what I think is happening, and you're saying "no, that's not happening." If you do agree that it is happening, but feel my definition is wrong, we can discuss it on that level. (That is precisely where a discussion of Gwen Stacy lies.) If you prefer to grant my definition (even if just for the sake of argument) of WIR and want to say that I'm applying it incorrectly in certain cases (i.e. Gwen Stacy) and want to refute my application based on story elements in the text, we can do that too. All of the above are perfectly reasonable areas of debate, and I am willing to speak to any of them. What I will choose not to do is to engage you if you're unwilling to meet halfway for debate. If you want to engage in ad hominem (YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT GWEN STACY WAS WIR FOR LONG ENOUGH, YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING!), if you want to say that "it isn't happening and your definition is wrong and Gwen Stacy isn't in a fridge, but I won't state my definition of what constitutes a fridging that I don't believe happens anyway," I will bid you good day and not respond to you further in this thread. I won't be subjected to goalposts being moved on issues not germane to my argument. |
I'm sure there's been a few "lets kill off the opposite gender because I'm pissed at said gender right now" happenings in comics.
But most of them (like 99%) I'd say it writers trying to be edgy, do something people havent seen before, or good old fashioned shock value.
Shock value sellls. It's that simple.
The reason some of these has happened so much, is because they've been around so much.
Comics are nothing but a soap opera. So bad things are going to keep happening to main characters, and bad things happen to their supporting cast. Now when the main character is male, the closest one to them tends to be the girlfriend.
If they had more comics out there starring female characters, you'd likely see just as much "kill the boyfriend" as "kill the girlfriend"
And a lot of this conversation started because people didn't like the death of one character in a story arc. When what the story needed was someone to die to get Statesman all riled up. Statesman has two characters to do this...Miss Liberty and Ms Liberty. Miss Liberty is the one that isn't a signature character. Miss Liberty is the one they can kill off without having to replace in AP or relink missions to a new contact.
Bucky died in the new Captain America to make Cap think, "This is my choice." at the end of the movie. If Bucky had been female people would be saying WIR.
WIR is trying to find sexism where there is none. Killing off supporting characters is just standard fare for most works of fiction.
Now some of it will be recieved better than others. Spider-Man for instance. This was just a great moment in comic history. Yes it sucked but it was just an "OMG NO!" moment.
Saddly, in the SSA it was more of a "Huh?" or "Meh!" moment for those who've seen it, as really, the character of Miss Liberty really has no meat to her. She's a character no one really knew anything about and before now, never really cared about her.
In comics it just becomes tedious as writers start to over use it, or one writer uses it in a comic, then is replaced by a new writer who then uses it as well.
This I blame on the editors not really thinking to say "You know what? We just did this, let's not repeat it for awhile so it doesn't get over used."
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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So... you are arguing that it only applies to comics. Okay then, that means it's not a problem here, because City of Heroes is not a comic book, it's a video game.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
As a purely aside point - I finally managed to drag myself over to the TVTropes page on "People stuffed in refrigerators." A quick count of the examples under comics? 15 examples are women; 4 examples are men or large presumably mixed gender groups. Only one of those four was a male example. So much for the 50/50, yes?
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[/thread]
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Sure, shock sells, but it's also an issue of what values are being bought into.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
But most of them (like 99%) I'd say it writers trying to be edgy, do something people havent seen before, or good old fashioned shock value.
Shock value sellls. It's that simple. |
Whatever the motives of fridge-stuffing writers - and there are no doubt as many rationales as there are writers involved - the net result is that there's a particular trend for the way they treat the deaths of female characters differently than male ones.
Also, 99%? Do you have a comics author survey in mind for how you determined this figure that you could supply us with for this discussion?
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| Bucky died in the new Captain America to make Cap think, "This is my choice." at the end of the movie. If Bucky had been female people would be saying WIR. |
In the classic case of Bucky Barnes's death (yes, we all know he 'got better' recently), he was killed while attempting to defuse Baron Zemo's flying bomb, which at least explodes before it can hit its target, thanks to his triggering its self-destruct. In short, he died a self-sacrificing hero's death in a war.
Contrast this with the death of the Wasp in the climactic battle of the Secret Invasion series, which was mentioned above. A Skrull disguised as her once-estranged husband, Hank Pym, had secretly manipulated her size-changing powers so that she could be turned into an unwitting biological bomb. When she's rigged to blow during the final fight, she loses control of herself and threatens all her allies. Thor has to take her out, literally, because she's become a liability, not a hero. She dies without even the option of self-sacrifice.
Writer Brian Michael Bendis (who really should know better), sums up Wasp's death as "a very poignant moment, particularly for Hank Pym, Tony Stark and Thor", coincidentally all male characters. (Presumably, it was something more than "poignant" for Janet Van Dyne herself.) Hank Pym, comics' most famous unbalanced and abusive husband, later takes over her superhero name and costume in what's probably the creepiest tribute in superherodom:
Here we have a case of two superhero casualties of war, one receiving very different treatment in the death scene than another. Given that one is a super-powered heroine with over almost half a century's presence in comics and the other was a sidekick active for less than a decade, the former would be more likely go out on a higher heroic note, or at the very least, both ought to receive equally respectful treatment.
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She said "movie."
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
In the classic case of Bucky Barnes's death (yes, we all know he 'got better' recently), he was killed while attempting to defuse Baron Zemo's flying bomb, which at least explodes before it can hit its target, thanks to his triggering its self-destruct. In short, he died a self-sacrificing hero's death in a war.
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No.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
So... you are arguing that it only applies to comics. Okay then, that means it's not a problem here, because City of Heroes is not a comic book, it's a video game.
[/thread] |
I chose comics because a) it was relevant to the thread and b) I couldn't be bothered to tally up the entire page.
If you want to move the goal posts to video games, 16 of 22 examples for video games on the Stuffed in the Fridge page on TVTropes are women. Still nowhere close to that 50/50 that exists in real life.
I don't think that helped your argument at all.
And, for the record, my definition of fridging does apply to all media.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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If someone says there's an issue, there might be an issue. If a bunch of people say there's an issue, then there's an issue.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
My deffinition of WIR is that for the most part it's a joke trying to find issue where there is none.
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I'm sure there's been a few "lets kill off the opposite gender because I'm pissed at said gender right now" happenings in comics. But most of them (like 99%) I'd say it writers trying to be edgy, do something people havent seen before, or good old fashioned shock value. |
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| I'll be honest, here. The idea of a woman being murdered bothers me more than the idea of a guy being murdered. Don't misread that. I think the idea of anyone being murdered is terrible. Anyone's death ends all their goals an aspirations, and it deprives all their friends, loved ones and family of that person's place in their lives. (Clearly I'm assuming here that the person lost wasn't themselves some monster people would be glad to be rid of.) But given that anyone's murder bothers me a lot, assuming people I don't know personally, the idea of the murder of a even a woman I don't know bothers me more than the murder of a man that I don't know. |
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Shock value sellls. It's that simple. The reason some of these has happened so much, is because they've been around so much. Comics are nothing but a soap opera. So bad things are going to keep happening to main characters, and bad things happen to their supporting cast. Now when the main character is male, the closest one to them tends to be the girlfriend. If they had more comics out there starring female characters, you'd likely see just as much "kill the boyfriend" as "kill the girlfriend" |
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| And a lot of this conversation started because people didn't like the death of one character in a story arc. When what the story needed was someone to die to get Statesman all riled up. Statesman has two characters to do this...Miss Liberty and Ms Liberty. Miss Liberty is the one that isn't a signature character. Miss Liberty is the one they can kill off without having to replace in AP or relink missions to a new contact. |
Killing someone close to him is lazy writing. And it's not just about the relationship - it's about how she went out. She used to be a superhero. She shows up in the first mission, cowers, and is killed without even so much as a defiant holding her head high, or dying declaration. It's also about how it is done.
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Bucky died in the new Captain America to make Cap think, "This is my choice." at the end of the movie. If Bucky had been female people would be saying WIR. WIR is trying to find sexism where there is none. Killing off supporting characters is just standard fare for most works of fiction. |
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In comics it just becomes tedious as writers start to over use it, or one writer uses it in a comic, then is replaced by a new writer who then uses it as well. This I blame on the editors not really thinking to say "You know what? We just did this, let's not repeat it for awhile so it doesn't get over used." |
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Originally Posted by Smersh
If you consume enough entertainment with problematic elements without that level of criticism for long enough, though, there can be a tendency to internalize elements of it and let it affect your worldview. That's why I prefer to point it out when I see it, and get bothered when people refuse to see it.
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I'd say the same is true of careless criticism and overwrought deconstruction that is loaded with self congratulations. I'd bother to refute actual points if I didn't feel like, at this point, I'm just arguing with an ego.
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Apparently when it comes to murders, in the US at least, real life is more like 70/30 (male/female).|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Still nowhere close to that 50/50 that exists in real life.
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http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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What I was referring to is that everyone dies.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Apparently when it comes to murders, in the US at least, real life is more like 70/30 (male/female).
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm |
In terms of murder? Overwhelmingly committed by men, whether the victim is male or female. Your point?
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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And overwhelmingly committed against men, whether the murderer is male or female. |
Originally Posted by Smersh
What I was referring to is that everyone dies.
In terms of murder? Overwhelmingly committed by men, whether the victim is male or female. Your point? |
And no point, other than that your 50/50 value seemed to be assuming that real life had no gender bias of its own.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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The 50% ratio I was referring to was the one posited by Scythus. And that regards death, not murder.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
And overwhelmingly committed against men, whether the murderer is male or female.
And no point, other than that your 50/50 value seemed to be assuming that real life had no gender bias of its own. |
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Then stop referring solely to comics.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
No.
I chose comics because a) it was relevant to the thread and b) I couldn't be bothered to tally up the entire page. If you want to move the goal posts to video games, 16 of 22 examples for video games on the Stuffed in the Fridge page on TVTropes are women. Still nowhere close to that 50/50 that exists in real life. I don't think that helped your argument at all. And, for the record, my definition of fridging does apply to all media. |
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No.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Then stop referring solely to comics.
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You don't get to tell me how to make my case.
You want to discuss other media? You can make an argument using another form of media, and if it is interesting to me, I will pursue it. If it's not, I won't.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
It's a game, who cares?
On a completely random note, WIR make me think of GIR from Invader Zim.
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And you say we move around the goal post. So does this argument center around comics or all media? Because at this point, you've pretty much stopped making sense.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
No.
You don't get to tell me how to make my case. You want to discuss other media? You can make an argument using another form of media, and if it is interesting to me, I will pursue it. If it's not, I won't. |
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Comic books have always been aimed at boys. Whether that's right or wrong; it's the truth. Complaining that trends in comic books reveal male bias is a little like complaining that women's basketball isn't given equal time in Sports Illustrated. You may be right, but you're also stating the obvious.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'd say the same is true of careless criticism and overwrought deconstruction that is loaded with self congratulations. I'd bother to refute actual points if I didn't feel like, at this point, I'm just arguing with an ego.
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Oedipus uses the word, "overwrought," and he's right: the sad thing is that all you have to do is look at the title characters to see male bias in comic books. Most lead characters are male. Thus, many of the stories about those males heavily feature females cast in the role of significant other. Thus, danger and tragedy will tend to hit females for shock value.
That support characters are often used as fodder to motivate lead characters isn't any great revelation, whether those lead characters are male, female, or self-reproducing creatures from another planet. That use of support characters ain't always good writing; it often isn't good writing, but hey, we are talking about comic books here.
The question isn't whether you can track the so-called WiR phenomenon in comics; clearly you can. The question is whether tracking what appears to be a self-evident consequence of the subject matter serves any useful purpose. Are we implicitly to accuse every writer who falls into the trap of writing for her audience of sexism? Are we hoping somehow to force the comic-book industry by political correctness fiat to print an equal amount of female-lead-character titles without regard for their viability in the existing market? Cause that's what it'd take before you start seeing the helpless husband cruelly murdered as often as the helpless wife.
I just don't see any point to this line of criticism, unless it's to gather around and pat each other on the back for our exceeding sensitivity. As one of the industry quotes TrueGentleman supplied says, it's a matter of good writing. Criticize the writing, not the writer. And no, you really can't accuse writing of misogyny without also smearing the author. Sorry, the misogyny label is just too emotionally charged to be tossed around with a casual, "No offense, dude."
Or, um, dudette.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Jim Shooter:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I generally look at the Women In Refrigerators as something to be considered when the character has, thus far, served as nothing BUT a victim.
Which, oddly, is what Miss Liberty has been for this game. There was a lot of talk of her being a great hero, but not much evidence of the fact in-game. She was never a presence. She was the silent, invisible hand guiding Freedom Corps and Longbow (though the latter has been dominated by her daughter's brash control), but you only get to hear about that through plaques and perhaps a few snippets of dialogue.
Otherwise, she gets her face smashed in by an Ouroboros arc and now she gets killed in the Who Will Die arc. She's been little more than a victim for the game's story to progress.
It's not an emotional moment for the playerbase because we never got a real chance to know her, hence this discussion. Her death made it glaringly obvious that she's been treated as nothing more than a victim in-game.
It could be argued that it wasn't supposed to be an emotional moment for us, though. It could just be that it's supposed to be an emotional moment for Statesman and Ms. Liberty. I wonder if the developers are looking into how Megan's going to handle this.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Go back and read the thread, you will note that I have, in fact, made references to media outside of comic books. (That would be Sefu Tendaji, a character who is killed here in CoH, and Max Payne.)|
Originally Posted by Scythus
And you say we move around the goal post. So does this argument center around comics or all media? Because at this point, you've pretty much stopped making sense.
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Comics have been the central issue of the thread; I see no issue with focusing my discussion there. There's a reason that the term "women in refrigerators" was coined to deal with comics. I also apply the term outside of comics when it is warranted.
If you don't like that I have chosen to focus my discussion on comic books, I... guess I'm sorry that you don't like how I've chosen to construct my argument? I'm not sorry enough to make an effort to placate you, though.
If you're dissatisfied with the direction the thread's taken, you could try contributing to it and leading it in a different direction. But I feel no need to acquiesce to your demand that I construct an argument more to your taste.
Just because I can and do apply fridging outside of the comics genre does not mean I have to upon demand.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Oh, okay... so you're not interested in being objective.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
[Different types of media only apply when I want them to.]
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I feel this is absolutely incorrect. Misogyny, oh noes!|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I just don't see any point to this line of criticism, unless it's to gather around and pat each other on the back for our exceeding sensitivity. As one of the industry quotes TrueGentleman supplied says, it's a matter of good writing. Criticize the writing, not the writer. And no, you really can't accuse writing of misogyny without also smearing the author. Sorry, the misogyny label is just too emotionally charged to be tossed around with a casual, "No offense, dude."
Or, um, dudette. |
When I am criticizing misogyny in writing, I am specifically criticizing the writing. In general, I don't know the author, I'm not speaking to them socially, I only know them through their writing. I can't say that the author of a particular work is a misogynist - unless I see that in interviews that they've given or some other method.
When I say that there is a problem with misogyny in writing, I don't assume that the writer is misogynist. I just assume that what they wrote has certain misogynist overtones, which the writer may or may not be aware of. It's easy to do - I've looked back on things I wrote ten years ago and picked up on certain issues that were problematic. I didn't do it deliberately, certainly - but that doesn't change the fact that there are certain elements which could be interpreted as nothing other than misogyny.
If someone pointed it out to me, I'd have to say that they were correct.
Would that mean that I would have to wear a big scarlet M on my clothing for the rest of my life? Hardly. Does it mean that I was cruel to the women in my life? No. But what I had written treated women as objects, not as full characters, and it wasn't right.
It means that what I wrote was misogynist, and that I need to think about why it was and what I can do in order to avoid it in the future.
But, and I underline this as it applies to comics - it's easy to write things as a male that are problematic, and you wouldn't even realize it unless it were pointed out to you. In my own writing from ten years ago, I didn't realize what I'd done until I reread it a year or so ago - I needed that distance from it to read it from an outside perspective, and with ten years of life experiences more than when I wrote it.
And outside perspectives on comics aren't all that common.
In general, saying that you've done something misogynist isn't a condemnation of your character. If you're told that's the case and you keep doing it, though... that goes beyond an act and becomes your character. (I'm looking at you, Frank Miller.)
And, no, I refuse to accept the idea that saying "what you are doing is misogynist" is worse than doing something that's misogynist.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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No, I'm perfectly willing to be objective. Bring something up that you want to discuss. Go ahead. I'm all ears.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Oh, okay... so you're not interested in being objective.
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Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
No.
The reason I'm pointing it out is that I want people to be aware of sexism in entertainment, both creators and consumers. If the author reads this thread, looks at what he wrote, and says "Huh, I didn't think of it that way," and tries to do things differently in the future, that's a win. If a player reads this thread after playing the arc and says "Huh, I didn't think of it that way, that's kinda messed up," that's a win.
For the most part, I don't judge people's tastes in entertainment, and I don't demand that entertainment be free of problematic elements. I can enjoy reading Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, with their rampant racism and sexism. I can enjoy Ender's Game, even with the prepubescent homophobia. I just make sure that I'm aware of those elements and say, "Hey, that's problematic."
If you consume enough entertainment with problematic elements without that level of criticism for long enough, though, there can be a tendency to internalize elements of it and let it affect your worldview. That's why I prefer to point it out when I see it, and get bothered when people refuse to see it.
As a purely aside point - I finally managed to drag myself over to the TVTropes page on "People stuffed in refrigerators." A quick count of the examples under comics? 15 examples are women; 4 examples are men or large presumably mixed gender groups. Only one of those four was a male example. So much for the 50/50, yes?
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.