WIR? (Spoilers)
Aside from all the feminist/mysogyny debate, isn't it a bit of a bait and switch by the devs to tout the SSA as a big epic event with an important sig character dying, and its actually some has-been D-lister instead? I'm trying to recall a mission where I've met her, and I can't.
That doesn't mean I'm glad she's dead, though. I just thought it would be Citadel.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Aside from all the feminist/mysogyny debate, isn't it a bit of a bait and switch by the devs to tout the SSA as a big epic event with an important sig character dying, and its actually some has-been D-lister instead? I'm trying to recall a mission where I've met her, and I can't.
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One of the reasons people are upset at her death is because the "Who will die?" slogan doesn't apply to her. She got killed for no reason other than to set up the scene for the famous people to die in. That's just using her and tossing her in the trash if ever I've seen it.
Here's a hint - next time you tout an arc's selling point as someone dying, make sure you don't kill other people, because then we have to explain why they weren't important enough to count.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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See, I simply can't get upset about that, at all.
She's basically a bit character, in terms of how much we've been exposed to her. Whether or not they could have established her more prominently in prior lore is an interesting discussion, but the reality "on the ground" is that they hadn't.
So what if they killed her? Setting aside all the debate about whether doing so was a case of WiR, with or without any of the things that may or may not imply, why should it be upsetting that they killed her? Ignoring whether killing her (or anyone else) was well-written, why do we care about whether or not it happened? Why is "collateral" violence undesirable in a story like this? I don't get that at all.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
See, I simply can't get upset about that, at all.
She's basically a bit character, in terms of how much we've been exposed to her. Whether or not they could have established her more prominently in prior lore is an interesting discussion, but the reality "on the ground" is that they hadn't. So what if they killed her? Setting aside all the debate about whether doing so was a case of WiR, with or without any of the things that may or may not imply, why should it be upsetting that they killed her? Ignoring whether killing her (or anyone else) was well-written, why do we care about whether or not it happened? Why is "collateral" violence undesirable in a story like this? I don't get that at all. |
Basically, grabbing a supporting character and killing her in a demeaning fashion is just cheap writing. It demeans the character even though she could have been interesting to get to know, and all it achieves is a cheap grab for attention in a story that could have been written to give the same motivation in a more interesting way.
These are stories people are getting charged for. These are stories I'm supposed to see as a perk of my subscription. I want to see them actually written well, not just lavished with pretty custom maps and gimmick mechanics. Having the gall to kill a named character is not an example of good writing. It is a crutch. And it's a particularly mean-spirited crutch.
"Who will die, among the people we actually care about?" is a terrible angle to sell a story on. Just having a character death as a selling point is exploitative enough. This just pushes it over the edge.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I clearly have lower expectations. And I don't mean that in a "I expect crap from Paragon Studios" kind of way (usually). I'm willing and able to be entertained by B-grade or even C-grade writing. I may recognize that it could be better, but by and large, I don't care. I care about things like glaring continuity holes, or things that make me go "what, why would anyone do that?" The rest? It's a video game. I'm all for the writing being good - I definitely don't need to to be weak for me to enjoy it. But I just can't be bothered to care that much about it as long as it at least holds together the basic plot and some kind of suspension of disbelief. (In a game about superheroes and supervillains, suspension of disbelief is probably available in industrial-grade dosages.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Because we're very nice people, most likely. Also, because the wider the appeal of a commercial piece of entertainment, the more money it brings in. As a fan, I'm not ashamed to say that I want the businesses whose entertainment I enjoy to see great revenue and grow and prosper. And, yes, this includes Paragon Studios. I may be cross at some of their decisions, but I vote with my money and I do wish them much success in the future. My entertainment depends on it
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Now you could say: 'Obviously, I meant changes that didn't remove the key points thatmake the product unique' but then, as we have said, each person will have their own different reasons for liking something. Even if you averaged it out, to find some core things most people agreed upon, some things you love about the game would have to be dropped. Is it really better to make something that 1000000 people think is pretty ok rather than something that 50000 love?
Always remember, we were Heroes.
And again - I'm not accusing you of sexism, unfairness or anything of the sort. I'm trying to discuss a concept that I'm hoping we can discuss without turning it into personal attacks. That's not my intention. What I say is just my perspective, not an accusation.
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I appreciate you saying that. To be honest I was a little stunned to read the initial responses to my conjecture that Paranormal Romance and the Superhero genres are closely related. Looking back on it I can see how it might possibly seem like I was saying that to make the Superhero genre more palatable to women you have to Sex and the City it up. I still feel like your take on what I wrote was a bit unfair but I'm willing to bury the hatchet because I generally like you and what you write.
Anyway, my take on the situation is still that just adding more strong female characters is unlikely to attract volumes of female readers. I have plenty of female geek friends; most of them have no interest in reading superhero comics whatsoever but are mad consumers of paranormal stories. Their reasons for watching and reading this material is sometimes because there are chicks that "kick butt" but just as often that there is a guy on the show who is hot and often shirtless. What will attract female readers is stories that appeal to females. That might seem like an infinite loop but is demonstrably true in that there are subsets of the super-powered entity genres that attract many female fans already. It is likely there are other formulas that would prove popular; what they might look like is hard to conjecture. And whatever their nature, some women will still not like them, and maybe even find them reductive or insulting in their own way.
Even if you averaged it out, to find some core things most people agreed upon, some things you love about the game would have to be dropped.
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Wrong!
If done correctly, it is usually possible to add elements that Alice will like to a story or game without removing the elements that Bob likes.
Now, Bob may not like the fact that Alice-elements have been added to the game, but that is a seperate issue, and Bob's issue, really. Adding anything to the game might have the same effect of ticking off Bob.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
If done correctly, it is usually possible to add elements that Alice will like to a story or game without removing the elements that Bob likes.
Now, Bob may not like the fact that Alice-elements have been added to the game, but that is a seperate issue, and Bob's issue, really. Adding anything to the game might have the same effect of ticking off Bob. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Except pure additive change is frequently wishful thinking. Think LFG queue and the Winter event. Think impact of adding iTrials to number of people rolling new low-level alts, and therefore impact on forming low-level teams. "If done correctly" is a qualifier of Jovian proportions.
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But 'difficult' is equally far from 'impossible'.
Making the Winter Event accessible from the LFG queue did not require removing the um, present method.
Adding iTrials impacts low level alts, but so does adding any content at all that can't be done by levels 1-5. Even at that, they could (and probably should) add missions that team Incarnates and low level characters; what better way to get Freems and Preems to want to go VIP?
Et Cetera.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Nope; still active, still appealing. That was just character development.
The Fridge takes you out of action for the foreseeable futures, such as when Wonder Woman was killed for a year or so. Her earlier depowerment that lasted for a decade also doesn't count because she was still portrayed as a likeable and capable character during that time. Barbara Gordon went into the fridge for a while after the Killing Joke, then came back out when she became Oracle. I'd say that it takes at least 3 months of 'this is a permanent change, and this character can no longer function as a hero' to count as a fridging. Changing to a villain does not count as a fridging. I am only talking about death/depowerment here, not various forms of violation. The above is IMHO. |
Storm was on her list, and Storm was always active and still an awesome character (okay, awesome is subjective, but I think you get the point) who was shown to be more than capable without the powers.
But that does bring up a good point. But then I think it comes back to sales.
Spider-Girl I think is the title that had a lot of promise, and I believe the numbers had it as one of the most popular of female lead comics, but I believe even then it was still low.
I'd enjoy Wonder Woman more if I didn't think the writer/artist changes to often for me to enjoy her comic more (but that can be said for any comic I guess).
I gave up on Gen13 when the artist changed to Gary Frank and the writing started to be suckie. Bad art, bad writing = no sale.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
Like I said - faith in an author has burned me in the past. I watched Naruto for four, five years maybe, waded through 300-something episodes, all hoping that women in the show would stop being worthless and useless, but nope. It's only getting worse. I'm not making that mistake again. I'm not putting up with a story that's tanking in the vein hope that it will get better. It never does.
But, no, I don't worry about this happening to men because... It generally doesn't. Sure, it might, occasionally, in the same sense that I might get struck by lighting within the next five minutes. I mean, I'm using a computer that's hooked up to the power grid. It could happen. But it probably won't. Not so with female protagonists. EVERY time I see a game or story build up a female character as capable, popular or likeable, I always fear it's so destroying her very soon thereafter will be that much more "shocking." And you know what? I'm almost always right. When a story shows me a competent man, it's usually so I can be impressed by his competence. When a story shows me a competent woman, it's usually so she can fail and suffer for it down the line. That's been my experience, at least. Hell, I applaud stories that don't do this, but those are somewhat rare. For instance, much as it's stupid, Heavy Metal 2000 at least avoided humiliating its female protagonist. She may be a male fantasy fanservice character, but at least she doesn't get put on a fridge and she gets to kick *** right into the credits. That counts for a lot. And I'm really not against killing characters per se, not even female ones. In fact, one of the most powerful scenes I've seen comes from an otherwise HORRIBLE anime called Divergence Eve, where a female character previously established to be likeable, pretty and nice gets quite literally eaten alive (in surprisingly un-graphic but very disturbing fashion). This is scene, however, added to the story because that story earned it, and because it built toward the finale, and because it was handled well. Sure, the rest of the series sucked ***, but that one moment is what made it memorable to me. Because it was done right. And you'll actually probably see that in every music video compilation of that series (blood dripping over an open eye, a hand smearing blood over a happy photo) because it's pretty much the strongest that ****** show ever got. However, that's an exception to the rule. When I start seeing strong, confident, competent female characters starring in their own stories, not overshadowed by men and not built up only to be brought down in a horrible fashion and when I start seeing this in any meaningful number, THEN I might stop being so weary. For now, I stick with experience. Yeah, and that's pretty much where I stopped reading. That art style and that plot pretty much killed whatever interest I had with the comic. Even naked super Benjamin Franklin couldn't do enough to make me see past that damn depressing issue. That's one more site scratched off my bookmarks. |
While the name of the comic is the name of the male lead, I'd argue the true main of the story is Esperanza, who imo anyways was a strong female lead.
[EDIT] *GASP* I loved Divergence Eve!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
Alexis isn't the one the tag line is referring to. That's what rubs many people the wrong way. "Who will die?" Well, Alexis just did. "Oh, um... She didn't matter. I mean who will die that's actually important and we care about him?" But Alexis just died! "Yeah, and a lot more people are going to die in the coming stories. They're not important. We're going to kill a SIGNATURE character. That's what matters. Everyone else is just meat."
One of the reasons people are upset at her death is because the "Who will die?" slogan doesn't apply to her. She got killed for no reason other than to set up the scene for the famous people to die in. That's just using her and tossing her in the trash if ever I've seen it. Here's a hint - next time you tout an arc's selling point as someone dying, make sure you don't kill other people, because then we have to explain why they weren't important enough to count. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
If you change a superhero comic enough to make it palatable to women it won't be a superhero comic any more, just like if I changed those trashy romance novels my mother reads enough to make them something a man would consider reading they wouldn't be trashy romance novels any more. They'd look like they were written by Mickey Spillane.
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And I guess this game isn't actually a superhero game either, since a lot of women play it. Actually, I don't get why guys play it at all, since you're told to dress up a virtual Barbie doll before you get to punch anything in the face.
I'm a guy. I feel threatened/alienated when, say, D&D 'cleans up' to appeal to a broader audience. If I wanted to belong to a "broad audience" I'd be into cars or soccer or something. Not roleplaying games. |
This is why I made the point about Teen Paranormal Romance and similar genres. There are super powered characters and who are appealing to female fan bases. They just have a different aesthetic. Compare the plot of a Sookie Stackhouse novel to a comic book arc. Can you tell the difference?
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Oh, I agree strongly. However, I begin to wonder when you have a book with multiple female characters who all spend a lot of time functioning as fanservice if they all are also going to be strong female role models. I don't know that I can justify it objectively, but there's something about that I find hard to reconcile.
Basically, there's something about spending every image frame with your rear hiked up in the air (yes, an exaggeration, but not that much of one) that doesn't jive well with notions I get from my female friends about what a woman they would look up to would be doing. One of them? Sure. All of them? That's a stretch to me. Let's fact it, those characters were being frequently being visually depicted as sex objects. Now, let me be clear, I'm not mentioning that because I object to it, per se. I just find it hard to believe that most women (assuming most women would read it to start with) would consider that a depiction of something to look up to. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I see, but WIR at least to Gail S. seems to say anything bad that happens to a female chaarcter.
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Storm was on her list, and Storm was always active and still an awesome character (okay, awesome is subjective, but I think you get the point) who was shown to be more than capable without the powers. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
It depends how it's done. Fanservice doesn't automatically mean sticking your rear in the air. Storm running around naked for no real reason other than she doesn't care certainly qualifies as fanservice, and yet doesn't make her a sex object, or any less someone to look up to. The entire superhero comic book genre is loaded with opportunities for incidental fanservice, what with everyone running around in painted-on tights.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
These aren't superpowered stories with romance, they're romance stories with superpowers. The difference is the focus. Sookie Stackhouse would have had a boring life if she hadn't started dating a vampire. On the other hand, Jean Grey have still had the Dark Phoenix saga if she hadn't started dating Cyclops.
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[spoilers ahead]
Sookie Stackhouse was special from the get go. She was a psychic who, it eventually is revealed, is a descendant of fairies (her origin story). Her parents had already been murdered years before, though she thought it was an accident (origin story reveal). Her employer was a shapeshifter. Her brother was a male harlot who on his own accord ends up turning into a werepanther. Her fellow waitress was murdered, as was the cook (he lived in the TV series). She also got over said vampire boyfriend, and ended up dating a string of guys in a fashion normally reserved for characters like James Bond. While romance is a major element of her novels, the main focus is almost always on solving mysteries or outwitting the scheming of evil vampires, werewolves, and humans, often through a series of extended action sequences. While she is not a scrapper by choice, she shot Debbie Pelt dead when her life was threatened.
The two genres aren't exactly the same, but they have a lot in common.
Sure. But that's why I specified "complete with poses". That's not how Gen-13 was drawn.
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Um, yeah, no. Personally, I don't see the attraction of sexualized poses like that in comics except on an extremely shallow level. Cheesecake is for pin-ups, in which "sexy" is the extent of the model's characterization. And no, I have absolutely no interest in seeing male heroes in sexualized poses either, and by that I mean actual male model poses not the silly "what if they posed Batman the way they pose Wonder Woman" pictures going around the internet. Superhero comics are supposed to be about superheroes, not underwear models.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Making the Winter Event accessible from the LFG queue did not require removing the um, present method.
Adding iTrials impacts low level alts, but so does adding any content at all that can't be done by levels 1-5. Even at that, they could (and probably should) add missions that team Incarnates and low level characters; what better way to get Freems and Preems to want to go VIP? Et Cetera. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Agreed. Adding anything to an ongoing series (which is what MMOs are) has to be done with caution and forethought. And preferably a plan.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Agreed. Adding anything to an ongoing series (which is what MMOs are) has to be done with caution and forethought. And preferably a plan.
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Good to have your confirmation.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Ah, my bad. I wasn't aware you were still talking about Gen-13.
Um, yeah, no. Personally, I don't see the attraction of sexualized poses like that in comics except on an extremely shallow level. Cheesecake is for pin-ups, in which "sexy" is the extent of the model's characterization. And no, I have absolutely no interest in seeing male heroes in sexualized poses either, and by that I mean actual male model poses not the silly "what if they posed Batman the way they pose Wonder Woman" pictures going around the internet. Superhero comics are supposed to be about superheroes, not underwear models. |
The more typical way to do it is like this:
![](http://collider.com/wp-content/image-base/People/C/Chris_Evans/chris_evans_image__4_.jpg)
Being shirtless and in a towel was a critical plot point in the Human Torch's character arc.
Ah, my bad. I wasn't aware you were still talking about Gen-13.
Um, yeah, no. Personally, I don't see the attraction of sexualized poses like that in comics except on an extremely shallow level. Cheesecake is for pin-ups, in which "sexy" is the extent of the model's characterization. And no, I have absolutely no interest in seeing male heroes in sexualized poses either, and by that I mean actual male model poses not the silly "what if they posed Batman the way they pose Wonder Woman" pictures going around the internet. Superhero comics are supposed to be about superheroes, not underwear models. |
The butt shot with a female playing pool, bent over the table for the shot. Sure, they could of done the shot of their face with the pool cue as they talk instead of showing them from behind, but that seems far different than say the Pin-Up style covers they might do (and really I never saw the covers as being to much in the story anyways).
Maybe I was just to innocent when going into comics and just liking the art styles and writing (and why I can only stay with a comic when I like at least one of them, and drop it when I hate both the art and story going on).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
Could just read it untill it does happen.
But, no, I don't worry about this happening to men because... It generally doesn't. Sure, it might, occasionally, in the same sense that I might get struck by lighting within the next five minutes. I mean, I'm using a computer that's hooked up to the power grid. It could happen. But it probably won't.
Not so with female protagonists. EVERY time I see a game or story build up a female character as capable, popular or likeable, I always fear it's so destroying her very soon thereafter will be that much more "shocking." And you know what? I'm almost always right. When a story shows me a competent man, it's usually so I can be impressed by his competence. When a story shows me a competent woman, it's usually so she can fail and suffer for it down the line. That's been my experience, at least. Hell, I applaud stories that don't do this, but those are somewhat rare. For instance, much as it's stupid, Heavy Metal 2000 at least avoided humiliating its female protagonist. She may be a male fantasy fanservice character, but at least she doesn't get put on a fridge and she gets to kick *** right into the credits. That counts for a lot.
And I'm really not against killing characters per se, not even female ones. In fact, one of the most powerful scenes I've seen comes from an otherwise HORRIBLE anime called Divergence Eve, where a female character previously established to be likeable, pretty and nice gets quite literally eaten alive (in surprisingly un-graphic but very disturbing fashion). This is scene, however, added to the story because that story earned it, and because it built toward the finale, and because it was handled well. Sure, the rest of the series sucked ***, but that one moment is what made it memorable to me. Because it was done right. And you'll actually probably see that in every music video compilation of that series (blood dripping over an open eye, a hand smearing blood over a happy photo) because it's pretty much the strongest that ****** show ever got.
However, that's an exception to the rule. When I start seeing strong, confident, competent female characters starring in their own stories, not overshadowed by men and not built up only to be brought down in a horrible fashion and when I start seeing this in any meaningful number, THEN I might stop being so weary. For now, I stick with experience.