"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 18:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Yes, that is an accurate description of how targeted AoE knockback works in theory, but no, in practice, that does not always happen. Latency, moving targets, ragdoll, and presumably other factors that I can't even guess at, for all the years I have played this game, caused some goofy things to happen, not infrequently, when using a targeted AoE knockback power, such as mobs shooting upwards/downwards/sideways/forwards instead of away from me. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It is always true in practice. The only time it isn't true is with click-and-stick AoEs that summon pets/pseudopets that originate the knockback, as I mentioned before. But targeted AoEs always knock enemies away from user - whether you target the enemy on the near edge, the middle, or the far edge. The only thing that factors in is the position of the target relative to the source of the knockback, which is the player in the case of targeted AoEs.
|
I played an E/E/F Blaster as a main from "issue 0" until issue 9 and never did notice a pattern to the nature of that particular phenomenon, but it happens often enough that it made me finally give up on the character I got so frustrated with dealing with it all the time.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Quote:
It comes down to accepting that on a team, "right" and "wrong" are defined by the team leader or by majority rule. Don't like it? There's the door and here's a brochure on how to use the /invite command to start your own bloody team. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
You're making my point for me.
It comes down to egos, selfishness and team kill speed. |
This goes both ways too. A controller with -KB AoE Immobilization is just as wrong to use that if the team has decided it actually wants to knock stuff all over the place because it's "fun". It doesn't matter if it's better DPS for him to glue everything down in a nice tidy group. He doesn't like it? There's the door...etc...etc.
Quote:
| That's why I keep stating that...in addition to the -KB IO...there needs to be some changes made so that KB is not so detrimental to the team. |
Quote:
| Having just the -KB IO solution is only going to keep those who like KB teamless. |
But as Macskull said... it's moot unless they can actually figure out how to implement -KB IOs.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Quote:
I sort of suspected you might harp on that statement and thought about elaborating - maybe I should have. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
"MY Footstomp AoE"...
|
I would think 'selfish' in the CoH environment constitutes doing something that, for the most part, hinders (however little) the majority of the players I'm teaming with, but I do it anyway because it benefits me. I can't think of any situation where a Footstomp would benefit only me and not also the majority of the team (please don't bring up some uber rare isolated scenario as a counter argument).
An awareness that a wild KBer is lessening the impact of my Footstomp (thus hindering the team) isn't selfishness. It's just being aware. That KBer, on the other hand... Well, maybe he thinks he's protecting me.
Quote:
I'm not sure what magical hax you're using, but for all the years I've played KB has consistently worked the way it's supposed to, whether it was me using it or not. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that radial knockback in targeted AoE powers is a myth.
|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Yes, that is an accurate description of how targeted AoE knockback works in theory, but no, in practice, that does not always happen. Latency, moving targets, ragdoll, and presumably other factors that I can't even guess at, for all the years I have played this game, caused some goofy things to happen, not infrequently, when using a targeted AoE knockback power, such as mobs shooting upwards/downwards/sideways/forwards instead of away from me.
I played an E/E/F Blaster as a main from "issue 0" until issue 9 and never did notice a pattern to the nature of that particular phenomenon, but it happens often enough that it made me finally give up on the character I got so frustrated with dealing with it all the time. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Quite a few odd scenarios are being put forth as counter-arguments here.
|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'm not sure what magical hax you're using, but for all the years I've played KB has consistently worked the way it's supposed to, whether it was me using it or not. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that radial knockback in targeted AoE powers is a myth.
|
Quote:
The game working like it's supposed to is an odd scenario? Hilarious in the implications.
|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Quite a few odd scenarios are being put forth as counter-arguments here.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
About as odd as the game not working like it's supposed to. Glad to hear your play experience has been forever unmarred by emergent behavior, but it happens.
|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The game working like it's supposed to is an odd scenario? Hilarious in the implications.
|
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
A simple solution that would not break the cottage rule, would not make people complain that their favorite power is being buffed, nerfed, or given a silly hat: add more single target fights to team content. How many people complain when Romulus is sent on a nice flight far away from his healing fluffball? Or when the Vahzilok AV in Death From Below is corralled off from the zombies you have to avoid defeating to earn the badge?
When so much of the content is "fight your way through a maze-shaped warehouse and click the glowing object at the end", of course people are going to favor being able to AoE everything down as quickly as possible. Non-linear content like mayhem missions also tend to be rare, and the chaos that comes of sending guys flying IS appreciated there, as ambushes happen regularly.
I would not mind knockback effects being removed or suppressed either by options or by IOs. It would be a far less favorable option (the -KB IO, unless there are options for a global and/or one to use per power), but it would give the Devs the ability to look at the popularity of such an option and possibly implementing others.
But for the love of the Furies change Solar Flare to KD!
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
Quote:
When an energy blaster knocks enemies back in an otherwise "safe" situation, you're still benefiting from the knockback. It may not be as obvious as when she pulls your butts out of a fire with a well placed explosive blast, but mitigation is mitigation. You may think you don't need her mitigation, yet you are seeing only a single "trial" of your team's performance. For all you know, your hotshot SS/FA would be having quite a bit of difficulty soloing that eight player spawn of Rikti, yet the contribution of knockback is relatively invisible to you even if you aren't predisposed to dislike it. If you already know that you hate knockback, you aren't going to see a single positive thing about it regardless of the reality of the situation.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Much less than it would be by someone with an area sleep - already a weak situational ability.
And, as has been said a million times, it's not that knockback cannot be situationally useful, it is instead that knockback is often tied to attacks that would not otherwise be considered situational. A big knockback power might be taken as a power similar to the aforementioned sleep if it's something the character has room for. But if that big knockback is also tied to the only good area attack you have, then listing one or two situations it may be useful in is not good enough. Your high damage AoE needs to be part of your regular attack chain, and if you can't use it as such, it becomes a detriment to that character. |
Actual CoH gameplay, for all of its snide reducibility to bash guys, guys falls down, is an incredibly complex system. To say that you can generalize one of the most complex effects within that system down to "eh, its bad. it's bad! bad. it." is to demonstrate the extent to which you do not understand the system.
In that light, my question is why any of the self-professed min-maxers in this thread care. Socorro cares because his PB has been spurned for normal play. Fair enough, I'd be annoyed too. Everyone else seems to care because of this vague notion that the existence of KB is interfering with the optimization of their general play experience. Here's a fun fact: unless you play exclusively with a cadre of fellow min-maxers and follow strict scientific routines to ensure perfect play, you're playing sub-optimally to begin with. You know that if you join a pug, your flawless reward per second ratio falls through the floor and doesn't stop until it reaches the center of the earth. It doesn't matter whether they're energy blasters or katana scrappers, they can't possibly be playing perfectly in such an uncontrollable environment.
What interests me is the fundamental conceit here that you all do play perfectly. You never make errors, you never dawdle, every second is spent wisely. Really? Are you sure? Look again.
There seems to be a mythical figure pervasive in this thread, an evil wicked strawman that refuses to invite anyone to his team unless they link him their tricked out Mids build that puts out over nine thousand DPS. I'm afraid people like that are too busy running their SS/Fire Brute through the same AE mission from dusk to dawn to actually post here.
Quote:
And while you're at it, put back in the footstomp animation while on the ground.|
Originally Posted by ArchGemini
But for the love of the Furies change Solar Flare to KD!
|
I misses it.
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending
Quote:
Despite how absolutely, atrociously rude and condescending your post is (careful when you call other people conceited in a wall of text like that, by the way, it awfully much resembles a certain pot and kettle we've all heard of), I'm going to answer your stated question.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
In that light, my question is why any of the self-professed min-maxers in this thread care. Socorro cares because his PB has been spurned for normal play. Fair enough, I'd be annoyed too. Everyone else seems to care because of this vague notion that the existence of KB is interfering with the optimization of their general play experience.
|
The reason that I care about having options to remove Knockback effects from powers is because I find them frequently to be frustrating to deal with in action.
I gave up on my original main, an En/En Blaster, because the pervasive knockbacks were so counterproductive for actually killing anything and because I enjoy teaming, where it doesn't matter how careful you are, you will still mess up someone's plans and they will attack you for it.
I gave up on my Peacebringer because it was, surprise, even worse than an Energy Blaster for knocking things around, because unlike the Blaster, a PB needs to be in melee to use all of their heavy hitters... and their PBAOE also has a huge knockback on it.
I hate playing Storm Summoning on anything that isn't a Fire/ Earth/ or Ice/ Controller because there is no practical way to make Tornado useful on anything save AV/GM class enemies without those -KB immobilizes, and Hurricane can be heinously annoying without one.
I gave up on my Dark/Mental Blaster after waiting years for Dark/ to come out, because unlike the classic Dark Blast, I can't just skip Torrent and be happy with my other two AoEs, because they merged two of them together, so now I either have to mess up my targeting for Tentacles and Psychic Scream or skip most of the area damage potential the set has to offer.
I really should not look at a power set and think, "Yeah, that'd be cool, but I'd just get tired of chasing things around or herding all the time to be effective." Many players feel this way. That is a flawed design, and if you can't see that, there is no point in continuing this discussion, because your bias is beyond reason.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Quote:
I was actually agreeing with you - my attempt at williness failed |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The game working like it's supposed to is an odd scenario? Hilarious in the implications.
|
Quote:
They will attack you for it? Who are you playing with and why are they so awful?|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I gave up on my original main, an En/En Blaster, because the pervasive knockbacks were so counterproductive for actually killing anything and because I enjoy teaming, where it doesn't matter how careful you are, you will still mess up someone's plans and they will attack you for it.
|
Quote:
| I gave up on my Peacebringer because it was, surprise, even worse than an Energy Blaster for knocking things around, because unlike the Blaster, a PB needs to be in melee to use all of their heavy hitters... and their PBAOE also has a huge knockback on it. |
Quote:
| I hate playing Storm Summoning on anything that isn't a Fire/ Earth/ or Ice/ Controller because there is no practical way to make Tornado useful on anything save AV/GM class enemies without those -KB immobilizes, and Hurricane can be heinously annoying without one. |
Quote:
| I gave up on my Dark/Mental Blaster after waiting years for Dark/ to come out, because unlike the classic Dark Blast, I can't just skip Torrent and be happy with my other two AoEs, because they merged two of them together, so now I either have to mess up my targeting for Tentacles and Psychic Scream or skip most of the area damage potential the set has to offer. |
Quote:
| I really should not look at a power set and think, "Yeah, that'd be cool, but I'd just get tired of chasing things around or herding all the time to be effective." Many players feel this way. That is a flawed design, and if you can't see that, there is no point in continuing this discussion, because your bias is beyond reason. |
Quote:
I could not even begin to list the number of people I have personally been harassed by for this very subject, let alone the number of people I have seen harass others over it. Also, this is, once again, an unnecessarily disingenuous response.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
They will attack you for it? Who are you playing with and why are they so awful?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
That's just false? Tornado is an autohit scale 4ish attack. If the only situation where that sounds handy to you is an AV or GM, you're not being very imaginative.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
So you require a minimum of three knockback-free aoes for a combination to be viable or what? That severely limits the archetypes you can play, to say nothing of the power sets.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Maybe I don't think many players feel that way because I see many players playing these sets that you seem to consider completely beyond the pale with no complaint. You know, it's perverse but they even seem to be enjoying themselves. What's wrong with these people? God they're as rude as I am, aren't they. Persistently interfering with the consistency of your reality with their incessant fun-having. Something must be done!
|
That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there are also many people who absolutely loathe knockback in all its forms and would never touch a set with heavy knockback presence even if paid. There many more players, like myself, who think knockback has a tendency to become more of a liability than a useful tool with a great enough frequency that it isn't worth the frustration it causes when that happens.
In what way would it hurt you for the game to allow an optional removal of knockback?
P.S. Kindly do me the favor of responding to me with the respect I have shown you if you bother to do so at all, again. I do not appreciate being talked down to and I have been nothing but polite to you and everyone else in this conversation. Additionally, I can only assume you're intentionally misinterpreting what I have posted to respond to it in turn as you did in the last section of your post. All you are doing by employing a tactic like that is discrediting your own argument.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Quote:
What!? WHAT!!!!? You, Sir, have exercised polite rationality on teh intarwebs!!!1 THIS CANNOT STAND!!11!!!!!!1!!
|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I could not even begin to list the number of people I have personally been harassed by for this very subject, let alone the number of people I have seen harass others over it. Also, this is, once again, an unnecessarily disingenuous response.
. . . In what way would it hurt you for the game to allow an optional removal of knockback? P.S. Kindly do me the favor of responding to me with the respect I have shown you if you bother to do so at all, again. I do not appreciate being talked down to and I have been nothing but polite to you and everyone else in this conversation. Additionally, I can only assume you're intentionally misinterpreting what I have posted to respond to it in turn as you did in the last section of your post. All you are doing by employing a tactic like that is discrediting your own argument. |
So, has anyone worked out the Kinetics timing to get a self-heal from Transfusion while Repel is on?
Quote:
Considering that you need to stand in melee range to benefit from about half your powers as a Kinetics user, Repel is one of the worst offenders in the game of powers that hurt you much more than they help you.
|
Originally Posted by Ang_Rui_Shen
So, has anyone worked out the Kinetics timing to get a self-heal from Transfusion while Repel is on?
|
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
My only real issue with KB is when it's uncertain. I -love- Force Bolt and Power Push. They're amazingly useful powers (especially a Dom's Power Push, but that's another dicussion...)
My problem is when a power has a chance to knockback. I can't stand that. If I could turn it off completely instead of having a chance, I'd gladly accept that.
Nothing in CoH bothers me more than a utility like that that only has a 30% chance to work. A damage chance/proc is different; that's a happy bonus that has no effect on me aside from purely killing faster. But when I only have fifty/fifty odds of knocking something, well that's just not useful. I'm always left thinking "Should I use my damage power here? They're facing a ledge... There's a chance they won't fly off it... but then again there's a chance they will... should I move? Should I use a different power? Should I play Russian Roulette and chance it?"
It leaves me feeling like my powers are so unpredictable that I'd rather just not use them, and opt for something more reliable.
And this is why I could never make an Energy Blast character...
YMMV.
"The Hollows was a cover up; it was really caused by Blue Steel experimenting with Foot Stomp." - Steelclaw
<-- boy
Quote:
Kin controller using a primary that has an aoe immobilize sporting -kb.|
Originally Posted by Ang_Rui_Shen
So, has anyone worked out the Kinetics timing to get a self-heal from Transfusion while Repel is on?
|
As for OP's suggestion, I'm all for it, more options are a good thing, if you don't like it then you don't have to use it.
Really, I think Peacebringer's Solar Flare should just be turned into knockdown, the fact that it still is knockback is mind blowing, there is nothing OP about peacebringers that would make them OP by changing Solar Flare to KD. As for energy blasters I think Null the Gull is the best way to go about it, would energy blast have obscene amounts of mitigation? Yeah, but their damage would still be lower than many other blast sets.
Quote:
I have a feeling that this will never be done - and not because knockback is all it's made out to be, as some are wont to claim. It's because changing KB to KD (or even just removing it completely) would massively increase the effectiveness of the sets that have it.
|
Originally Posted by Infinitessa
I realize that completely nullifying or re-working knockback isn't feasible as some players enjoy or even depend on it. But the introduction of our friendly extradimensional gull gives me hope for the future.
|
Quote:
Actually KB complaints have been going on for all those 7 and a half years. It hardly matters whether this is done or not. The devs want Fire Blast to continue to dwarf Energy, SoA to continue to make Peacebringers look like the joke that they are, that's cool with me.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
How exactly is Sailboat the one who's wildly out of line when all he's arguing for is the status quo? Doesn't the burden of proof lie on those who want to completely change how the game has worked for seven and a half years? Knockback is in the game. Deal with it. You have been dealing with it for up to seven and a half years, why is it suddenly too much for you now?
|
I know how to use KB and like it quite a bit. But it's one of the most inefficient forms of mitigation in the game and is IMO, one of the worst secondary effects you can saddle a power with. That's not bias, I'm not happy about that. I've argued to the devs that KB should have an advantage attached to it, like smashing damage or something. When they buffed Energy Assault for Dominators they actually did this to Power Push. Let's say that Energy Blast's KB procs also gave additional Smashing damage when they caused KB. Then having a choice between KB and KD isn't so clear. It creates a valid choice.
The OP and those disagreeing are right. If there is a choice given to turn off KB, that's not a choice. It's a requirement for anyone who cares about being able to play at their best. That's the real tragedy of KB. If its proponents would simply accept that it's not this great thing they think it is, we might be able to get some real changes that both address the legitimate concerns of the anti-KB folks and make KB users more valued.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
I love this post.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I love knockback apologists.
Three days ago, in that other topic about knockback being underrated: "the people who dislike knockback are a minority of minmaxers, they just complain loudly". Now, here: "so many people dislike knockback the option to turn knockback off would be an obligation". People, it has to be one or the other. You can't just flip-flop and claim the exact opposite thing as fact whenever it's convenient to your argument. Same goes for "knockback is useful and awesome" (in "is KB good" topics) vs "lowering KB on powers would make some too powerful" (in "option for less KB" topics). Special gold star for Sailboat who manages to say all those things at once in the same post while also admitting he's against any change to KB just to spite people who enjoy the game differently than The One True Way It Is Meant To Be Played, By Sailboat.  Knockback is the best ranged mitigation! Anyone who dislikes KB is a powergaming munchkin! Uh... If KB is the best mitigation, wouldn't a powergaming munchkin be all over it? But I'm sure there's some crazy conspiracy theory to cover that one, like all powergaming munchkins are stupid and Sailboat, as a superior human being, comprehends the game and optimizes in a way mere commoners cannot do. Wouldn't that make Sailboat the god of all powergaming munchkins? No, stupid, because Sailboat doesn't use numbers nor prove his assertions in any way, which makes him pure and holy as we all know numbers are evil and words are good. You can just picture all these players joining teams and laughing to themselves as they purposefully grief their teammates. Reminds me of the "incarnate content must be gated to trials" folks ; such terrible, egotistical people they are afraid nobody would team with them if they weren't forced to - and rightfully so. |
Thanks Nihilii.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'd say KB is available in some of the most popular sets there are. Energy blast and super strength are the two sets that everyone picks the first time they play the game, and the latter happens to also be flavor of the century for tankers and brutes.
|
Are you just pretending to be obtuse?
Super Strength has almost nothing but 0.67 KB, which functions as Knockdown.
The only power in the set that actually does knock things back, Handclap, is almost universally reviled and skipped by nearly ever Super Strength character I have ever come across.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound