"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 18:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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If one way of doing things is effective and efficient and another is wasteful and slow, then they are not diverse. A choice to suck is not a real choice.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
If you're arguing that every single thing in the game should be balanced around rounding things up and aoeing them, you're saying you want to take something that is currently quite diverse and render it completely homogeneous.
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That's because people try to be polite ingame. It doesn't mean you aren't irritating the crap out of them. I didn't complain to the guy who kept killing me with his knockback - I just 1 starred him and moved on after we finished that mission.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I honestly haven't seen anyone complain about a teammate's knockback in the game in three or four years.
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Tenzhi, there is indeed a knockback power that pseudopets things off to the four winds, jolting chain. Using it on low level spawns is highly amusing.
rsclark, there's a huge difference between "the most effective way of doing things" and "the only effective way of doing things." Is burning down clusters of enemies with aoes the most effective way of doing things? If you're considering rewards per time, usually yes. To go on and say any other strategy is useless is to be either dishonest or ignorant.
Why can't KB be useful on a team? Do you think you can prove that it isn't useful on a team? I don't think you can. Take any team that's suffering from a bad pull, an inopportune ambush, what have you, and add knockback. Their circumstances have improved. Attacks that would be forthcoming have been delayed for five seconds or more. Would you say that "good teams" never ever get in over their heads?
I would say that a good team is one that is pushing the limits of what it can handle. This is precisely the area where eclectic mitigation like knockback can shine.
What about this...as a way to make knockback ok and even still desirable?
Make the difference between enemy melee and range damage even more substantial.
Taunt Auras...such as Rise to the Challenge and Invincible get their buffs from any enemy targetting them...no matter how far away they are. This would be in addition to the affected targets in melee range. Meaning that...they would work just as they do now...but if someone knocks away some of the targets surrounding them...they still get the buff from the ones they have taunted.
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Because I was talking about AoE KB where the entire group is scattered. Why else would we be talking about /follow in reference to melee characters and KB?
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Originally Posted by MikeRobe
Why would the inv follow 1 mob, EA, Shield, Ice Armour, blah blah blah...? if you need to be with the group stay with the group and let the person who kb'd the 1 deal with that mob...
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Veddy Interestink. Would certainly help salve the ATs who get fueled by nearby foes. Won't much help with the desire to Rain down the AoE damage on tight mobs, but hey, it's a start.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
What about this...as a way to make knockback ok and even still desirable?
Make the difference between enemy melee and range damage even more substantial. Taunt Auras...such as Rise to the Challenge and Invincible get their buffs from any enemy targetting them...no matter how far away they are. This would be in addition to the affected targets in melee range. Meaning that...they would work just as they do now...but if someone knocks away some of the targets surrounding them...they still get the buff from the ones they have taunted. |
I've often felt that KB would be more desireable if it had more Ooomph - say, something like every KBd foe has a chance for a smashing damage proc to befall them (to represent flying and crashing into walls, etc). Maybe the damage could be a multiple of the magnitude of the KB - the further you fly, the harder you smash... or maybe just a higher chance of proccing if that math is too much.
If KBing ATs were bring more Smash to the table, maybe other ATs would get so irate seeing those mobs fly if they knew they were suffering extra because of it.
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I doubt that. I would bet that most of this complaining comes from bruised ego's and all around selfishness.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
If KBing ATs were bring more Smash to the table, maybe other ATs would get so irate seeing those mobs fly if they knew they were suffering extra because of it.
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I prefer the -KB IO idea myself. Null would turn off all KB and I just wouldn't want that. Powers whose primary purpose is to do KB are fantastic. I can count on them and use them only when I WANT the KB. Powers that have KB as a secondary effect to the damage? I'd usually prefer those to do KD. Well sometimes... Crane Kick without the knockback? I'm just not seeing it.
Besides which the IO is an equitable solution. KB enhancement exists for those who want more. Why not KB reduction for those who want less? And because it consumes a slot, it really makes you think whether you absolutely need it or not.
Frankly, I think some of the more rabid pro-KBers in this thread are overreacting. Why oppose optional -KB being available to those who want it? I don't see how this is bad for the game. You really think people will kick you for not turning off your KB (people that wouldn't already kick you today just for having it?) What do you care? You don't want to team with those people anyway.
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Much less than it would be by someone with an area sleep - already a weak situational ability.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Why can't KB be useful on a team? Do you think you can prove that it isn't useful on a team? I don't think you can. Take any team that's suffering from a bad pull, an inopportune ambush, what have you, and add knockback.
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And, as has been said a million times, it's not that knockback cannot be situationally useful, it is instead that knockback is often tied to attacks that would not otherwise be considered situational.
A big knockback power might be taken as a power similar to the aforementioned sleep if it's something the character has room for. But if that big knockback is also tied to the only good area attack you have, then listing one or two situations it may be useful in is not good enough. Your high damage AoE needs to be part of your regular attack chain, and if you can't use it as such, it becomes a detriment to that character.
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You're right...if I had to choose between the two...a -KB IO is the ONLY way to go.|
Originally Posted by Zem
I prefer the -KB IO idea myself. Null would turn off all KB and I just wouldn't want that. Powers whose primary purpose is to do KB are fantastic. I can count on them and use them only when I WANT the KB. Powers that have KB as a secondary effect to the damage? I'd usually prefer those to do KD. Well sometimes... Crane Kick without the knockback? I'm just not seeing it.
Besides which the IO is an equitable solution. KB enhancement exists for those who want more. Why not KB reduction for those who want less? And because it consumes a slot, it really makes you think whether you absolutely need it or not. Frankly, I think some of the more rabid pro-KBers in this thread are overreacting. Why oppose optional -KB being available to those who want it? I don't see how this is bad for the game. You really think people will kick you for not turning off your KB (people that wouldn't already kick you today just for having it?) What do you care? You don't want to team with those people anyway. |
However, I also think there needs to be ways to keep knockback "useful" in the sense of people not getting pissed about players who like knockback.
Therefore...if you personally do not like knockback in your powers...you have to slot the -KB IO.
If you do like knockback...there should be things that make it ok in a team.
You shouldn't have to only team with people who don't care about knockback if you like knockback. Something should be done so that everyone can team happily.
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I dunno - when I play my Melee ATs, I roll my eyes when a teammate PB or other KBer blows mobs outside of my AoE and Stat-Fueling Radius. Nothing to do with bruised ego, or even selfishness - I'm just aware they are removing targets from my Footstomp AoE. How can that ever be good?|
Originally Posted by Vitality
I doubt that. I would bet that most of this complaining comes from bruised ego's and all around selfishness.
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But always I say nothing, because I sympathize greatly with them (mainly because I love PBs myself). Once or twice I've suggested some of the KB tricks people espouse, but I got the feeling they thought I was just nicely telling them they suck.
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I would have to disagree and say that most of the complaining comes from the fact that it can be very frustrating to deal with feeling like you can never use your powers effectively for the duration you spend with a particular team(mate), which, in some circumstances, can be hours (Task Forces and the like).|
Originally Posted by Vitality
I doubt that. I would bet that most of this complaining comes from bruised ego's and all around selfishness.
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I really wish radial Knockbacks would be outright removed, because those are unbelievably annoying and serve no mechanical benefit in any situation, and what's worse is that the powers they're attached to aren't great powers in other ways, either. Directional ones can be utilized intelligently, but it's rare to see it done.
I personally see no valid reason to complain about adding the option to completely remove KB from a power (again, completely remove, not mitigate to knockback), doing so is pure bellyaching and will-imposing on others. I don't particularly care that certain players want everyone to be forced to deal with it, nor do I particularly care why, that's not a reasonable stance to take.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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"MY Footstomp AoE"|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I dunno - when I play my Melee ATs, I roll my eyes when a teammate PB or other KBer blows mobs outside of my AoE and Stat-Fueling Radius. Nothing to do with bruised ego, or even selfishness - I'm just aware they are removing targets from my Footstomp AoE. How can that ever be good?
But always I say nothing, because I sympathize greatly with them (mainly because I love PBs myself). Once or twice I've suggested some of the KB tricks people espouse, but I got the feeling they thought I was just nicely telling them they suck. |
While I understand that them allowing you to just keep unloading the AoE damage of footstomp would probably be better AoE damage...it's selfish in the sense that you don't want them using their AoE just so that you can use yours to it's full effectiveness.
Anyways...like I said...I'm all for the -KB IO.
I'm just saying that something else needs to be changed as well so that people can stop hating on those who like knockback.
I can understand how knockback powers may reduce the time it takes to clear mobs...but a -KB IO is not going to solve all the knockback problems talked about here.
I honestly think it's going to screw over the people who like knockback when it comes to finding teams.
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They don't really exist, isn't that good enough? |
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I really wish radial Knockbacks would be outright removed
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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If I'm on an Emp standing off to the side healing and buffing, I would still prefer the SS brute and the fire blaster to unload their AoEs over the PB. It's not selfish to want to use your power instead of another character's if yours is better. That benefits everyone, not just yourself. Selfishness only comes when you want to use your ability to the detriment of others.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
"MY Footstomp AoE"
While I understand that them allowing you to just keep unloading the AoE damage of footstomp would probably be better AoE damage...it's selfish in the sense that you don't want them using their AoE just so that you can use yours to it's full effectiveness. |
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You're making my point for me.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
If I'm on an Emp standing off to the side healing and buffing, I would still prefer the SS brute and the fire blaster to unload their AoEs over the PB. It's not selfish to want to use your power instead of another character's if yours is better. That benefits everyone, not just yourself. Selfishness only comes when you want to use your ability to the detriment of others.
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It comes down to egos, selfishness and team kill speed.
That's why I keep stating that...in addition to the -KB IO...there needs to be some changes made so that KB is not so detrimental to the team.
Having just the -KB IO solution is only going to keep those who like KB teamless.
Dunno if it's been said (I am le lazy today) but the reason an ability like this isn't already in the game is because the devs haven't been able to figure out a way to make it work without breaking lots of stuff.
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Sure, I'd take that too.|
Originally Posted by Zem
I prefer the -KB IO idea myself.
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While we're at it, I want a -Fly IO for my Teleport so I don't have to hover for 2 seconds when I want to just teleport and land running (similar to issue 1 Teleport).
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Really?|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
They don't really exist, isn't that good enough?
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Have you ever played or teamed with a Peacebringer?
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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Yes. And still, Knockback only knocks enemies directly away from them. It only becomes "radial" if they stand in the middle of a group of enemies and use AoE knockback. It's a matter of positioning rather than being incumbent to the power.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Really?
Have you ever played or teamed with a Peacebringer? |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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It's also "radial" if you fire a targetted AoE at a group and hit anywhere other than the most exterior row, which can be exceedingly difficult to do if the mobs are moving. I have seen people misuse Solar Flare, for example, much less frequently than the Nova Form blasts, which can easily scatter a group six ways from Sunday in a matter of seconds.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Yes. And still, Knockback only knocks enemies directly away from them. It only becomes "radial" if they stand in the middle of a group of enemies and use AoE knockback. It's a matter of positioning rather than being incumbent to the power.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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In other words, you gotta try to get 3 or so Targets in your Radius as opposed to 10+.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Yes. And still, Knockback only knocks enemies directly away from them. It only becomes "radial" if they stand in the middle of a group of enemies and use AoE knockback. It's a matter of positioning rather than being incumbent to the power.
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Learn to control your KB, people, sheesh
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Targeted AoEs knock a group of enemies away from the user, not the target.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
It's also "radial" if you fire a targetted AoE at a group and hit anywhere other than the most exterior row, which can be exceedingly difficult to do if the mobs are moving.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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This is not always true in practice.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Targeted AoEs knock a group of enemies away from the user, not the target.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Some of you seem to be at least admitting that some KB is problemmatic (ie. a PB's Solar Flare) and that individual tweaks here and there are sufficient - that's fine with me.
The truth is I wish KB was a better integrated and beneficial part of the game. Outside of flying, nothing says 'Super' more than knocking foes across a city block. I love the way KB looks - ragdoll physics are awesome. And when I'm solo on my PB I let it fly.
It's just that our game isn't well designed for KB to be of much benefit to teams, esp. powerful teams (which I prefer to be on). Its mitigation is laughable to them - its damage-reducing element (via scattering) is not. My preference would be to find a way for this game to make KB truly desireable, on all teams, at all levels, but since that is less likely, I simply wish for the alternative.