"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 18:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I would SO love this option, but sadly, I don't see it ever happening.|
Originally Posted by Infinitessa
As a gravity controller one of my favorite powers is Wormhole. Flashy animation, huge activation time to make me feel like I'm charging up something special and forces me to be careful when I use it. On top of that the mechanics are awesome too, teleport my foes AND stun them? Yes please!
The only real downside is the highly unpredictable knockback at the end. I'm familiar with many of the knockback tricks, flying and aiming down being the most common. But in spite of trying to figure out exactly where to position myself relative to my target, and where to position the exit portal relative to where I want them to end up, Wormhole remains hard to master. I realize that completely nullifying or re-working knockback isn't feasible as some players enjoy or even depend on it. But the introduction of our friendly extradimensional gull gives me hope for the future. |
If I could ask Null the Gull for something that I might think more realistically likely to happen, I'd love the ability to not be affected by other people's Reveal power. Call me crazy, but I love being about to tell what section of a instance has been explored and what part hasn't. But far too often people pop reveal in an instance without even bother to ask their team mates.
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Ok, then go ahead and tell me what exactly was your point in bringing Super Strength into the argument?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Maybe if you keep harping on something I was never saying to begin with it...
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To show that poster that a popular power set has High Mag KB in it?
Your point is still moot because nearly everyone skips those powers.
Let's try to bring the tone down a bit, I'm sorry for my earlier caustic comments.
Do you think KB is a powerful tool or do you think it is simply something you enjoy but recognize that it really isn't a useful tool to any halfway competent player, build or team?
I know that seems like a loaded question, but all of my friends who do enjoy KB basically state the latter often.
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People start avoiding you like the drunk on the bus.
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Originally Posted by MikeRobe
Ok oh wizard of the power set... what happens if you slot 2 kb enh in Footstomp?
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I used to think certain powers were designed with KB in mind as a balancing factor to keep them from being too powerful. And I think the devs still subscribe to this. The problem is KB can already be turned off simply by having someone with immobilizes on the team. And honestly, if you halved (or more) the KD proc rate I'm sure people will still be more excited to have powers like Solar Flare and Hand Clap in their builds than they are right now.
The only AoE knockback power I like is Nova and only because it'll kill most of the badguys anyway. ST knockback is okay because they're more controlled and less wild. AoE knockbacks are stupid unless they're 100% rate because they cause severe scatter. And PBAoE knockbacks are the worst thing outside of cage powers.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That dude said there aren't any popular sets with KB in them. I easily demonstrated that there are. That's it. That's the entire story. This doesn't seem like something worth fighting over.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Ok, then go ahead and tell me what exactly was your point in bringing Super Strength into the argument?
To show that poster that a popular power set has High Mag KB in it? Your point is still moot because nearly everyone skips those powers. |
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Do you think KB is a powerful tool or do you think it is simply something you enjoy but recognize that it really isn't a useful tool to any halfway competent player, build or team? I know that seems like a loaded question, but all of my friends who do enjoy KB basically state the latter often. |
Making it a switch on Null is a terrible "solution" because it gives credence to the idea that KB should be removed, and it makes it easy for forum-types to cow other players into going and shutting it off so that they don't inconvenience poow wittwe babies who simply can't handle anything unexpected ever happening.
The only semi-reasonable anti-KB option that has been proposed in this thread is negative KB enhancers, because then there's a tradeoff and it requires both consideration and action on each player's part. The devs are not going to add -KB enhancers because it's such an amazingly niche concept that it couldn't possibly be worth their time to do so when the vast majority of players are not complaining about this "problem" in the first place.
Oh, and what do you do if someone starts throwing a tantrum about your KB? How about growing a pair and resolving the conflict as an adult might do?
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Actually, they just couldn't get them to work. They tried.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The devs are not going to add -KB enhancers because it's such an amazingly niche concept that it couldn't possibly be worth their time to do so when the vast majority of players are not complaining about this "problem" in the first place.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's always OK with the devs. Eliminating drawbacks by teaming is intended behavior. See Stone Tanks and Kinetics.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I used to think certain powers were designed with KB in mind as a balancing factor to keep them from being too powerful. And I think the devs still subscribe to this. The problem is KB can already be turned off simply by having someone with immobilizes on the team. And honestly, if you halved (or more) the KD proc rate I'm sure people will still be more excited to have powers like Solar Flare and Hand Clap in their builds than they are right now.
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| The only AoE knockback power I like is Nova and only because it'll kill most of the badguys anyway. ST knockback is okay because they're more controlled and less wild. AoE knockbacks are stupid unless they're 100% rate because they cause severe scatter. And PBAoE knockbacks are the worst thing outside of cage powers. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
There is some serious silliness going on here.
Whoever said KB is a "rule of the game" analogous to the way pieces move in chess is, um, wrong. This game (like all MMORPGs) is a customizable experience and KB is not mandatory. Surely you've been on a team where there was nobody with a KB power. I know I have, and it worked just fine!
The response to this is usually "So then just pick a powerset without KB!" which is fair, I guess, but the problem people have is that they like the KB powersets, they just don't like the KB. In other words, Energy Blasters and Peacebringers are cool, but they're annoying to most people.
NOTE: If you are not one of those people who is annoyed by KB, please don't feel like you need to counter me by saying so. I said most people, not everyone.
Damage, however, is a "rule of the game", and so you'll notice that EVERYONE does damage, because damage is necessary to kill the bad guys. Is Knockback necessary to kill the bad guys? No.
Does Knock Back help kill the bad guys?
...No.
(In My Opinion) people who say "Oh, psht, you just don't know how to play a KB powerset! I'm a great asset to my team because I use my KB strategically!" are overstating their usefulness. They are trying to justify their existence, essentially. Knocking things against a wall isn't as useful as you think it is, trust me.
The scrapper would have been just fine without you.
But flinging things away from the group? Yeah, that's detrimental. Stop. Don't say it isn't. Because that would be lying, and lying is bad. There is absolutely no good reason to fling a bad guy away from a tightly packed group of bad guys that is getting burned down by AOE.
"I'm going to kill it in a second" does not make it less detrimental.
"It's only one guy" doesn't make it less detrimental.
If it's even a little bit of a detriment to the team, it's still a detriment.
The simple fact is, this is a superhero game that has KB powers for ragdoll fun, but core game mechanics based on classic MMORPG principles: Herding, threat maintenance and AOE damage. KB runs counter to all of that, and there is no sane argument which can avoid or overcome that. This is particularly true with KB with only a partial chance to knock back, because you have no idea when it's going to happen.
This is the important part of the post:
If KB is to be used as a tool, then it should not be random. Powers should be either KD (or a chance to KD) or 100% KB and low damage. Like, for instance, the way it is in some of the melee sets, SS and KM to be specific. Melee characters tend to skip the KB tools because they don't make any sense for them, but why can't we apply that principle to ranged sets? Why can't we actually decide which powers are for KB utility/mitigation and which are for damage/mitigation?
This problem doesn't need a whole new game system to bend over backwards for it. It just needs some fine tuning of the relevant powersets.
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And you added to it.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
There is some serious silliness going on here.
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Damage, however, is a "rule of the game", and so you'll notice that EVERYONE does damage, because damage is necessary to kill the bad guys. Is Knockback necessary to kill the bad guys? No. Does Knock Back help kill the bad guys? ...No. |
Also, you'll find that almost all powers with knock in them do damage... that does help kill the baddies, right? There are exceptions of course, but the powers that knock and do no damage all have some other control in there (stun, -to hit etc). I am not aware of any power in the game that does knockback and nothing else.
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| (In My Opinion) people who say "Oh, psht, you just don't know how to play a KB powerset! I'm a great asset to my team because I use my KB strategically!" are overstating their usefulness. They are trying to justify their existence, essentially. Knocking things against a wall isn't as useful as you think it is, trust me. |
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The scrapper would have been just fine without you. |
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But flinging things away from the group? Yeah, that's detrimental. Stop. Don't say it isn't. Because that would be lying, and lying is bad. There is absolutely no good reason to fling a bad guy away from a tightly packed group of bad guys that is getting burned down by AOE. |
As for single target knock...
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"I'm going to kill it in a second" does not make it less detrimental. "It's only one guy" doesn't make it less detrimental. If it's even a little bit of a detriment to the team, it's still a detriment. |
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I think you've been around long enough to know that when the devs say "we tried," it means it would have taken more work to be feasible than they were willing to invest, not "it's impossible but we were definitely going to add it if that weren't the case."
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Actually, they just couldn't get them to work. They tried.
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No, the -KB IO just doesn't work. There are other means to accomplish the same result, but the devs choose not to do them because of the social and balance implications.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I think you've been around long enough to know that when the devs say "we tried," it means it would have taken more work to be feasible than they were willing to invest, not "it's impossible but we were definitely going to add it if that weren't the case."
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Its not about maximum power at all times, its about team mates using an ability that has detrimental effects on other people's playstyles.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
My point in this thread is that there's more to the game than having maximum power at all times. When you're talking about the devs making radical changes to sets, farming efficacy should not be the only concern. Right now you have a choice - you can avoid KB by playing one of the many sets that lack it. If they were to start down the road of removing KB from the game, that choice is gone.
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KB used without any sense is basically griefing to me (even if it's inadvertent), and it can be used on purpose as a griefing tool (isn't that one of the running jokes for /Storm vs. Tankers and putting the Tanker on auto-follow?).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Making it a switch on Null is a terrible "solution" because it gives credence to the idea that KB should be removed, and it makes it easy for forum-types to cow other players into going and shutting it off so that they don't inconvenience poow wittwe babies who simply can't handle anything unexpected ever happening.
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I would just like a solution for myself so I could enjoy a wider breadth of powersets & powers, all of which I currently avoid like the plague.
I also find it funny that you have resorted to insults and name calling at this point, after wondering why you were being considered mean and nasty.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
poow wittwe babies who simply can't handle anything unexpected ever happening.
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I'm referring to these people that Socorro and others were talking about who, apparently, violently oppose knockback and are willing to berate their teammates for even using it correctly. Are you saying that that's a rational behavior that is beyond reproach? I think they're a collection of ********. I've never actually met one of these people but if you all assure me that they exist I choose to believe you.
Kicking someone who is being antisocial is one of many ways of "dealing with it" that I was encouraging people to take advantage of. I'd rather try talking to them before resorting to that but it's a valid option.
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So, you kick people from teams/leagues when they are incapable of not being idiots with their KB (which is of course you judging it and not just how the player thinks it's okay to play).|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I already have a solution for other people, I kick people from teams and leagues when its clear they are incapable of not being idiots with their KB.
I would just like a solution for myself so I could enjoy a wider breadth of powersets & powers, all of which I currently avoid like the plague. |
And yet, YOU can't play it yourself, because...you can't play it without being an idiot yourself? Is that what you're saying? Cause that's what it's sounding like.
Am I reading it wrong?
Obviously you don't kick the ones who know how to use it to your happy merriment, and yet you can't play it because you can't play it that way because you think you play like an idiot?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Zing! Wow, you really nailed me there. With the whole "you posted in a thread you say is absurd, then so are you!" I should have known better.|
Originally Posted by MikeRobe
And you added to it.
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| right, KB does not help kill the bad guys. It controls them, rag dolling them so that they cannot attack you or the team. AOE Holds don't help kill the bad guys either (except for volcanic gas, that has a minor dot) but every controller takes their aoe hold. |
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Also, you'll find that almost all powers with knock in them do damage... that does help kill the baddies, right? There are exceptions of course, but the powers that knock and do no damage all have some other control in there (stun, -to hit etc). I am not aware of any power in the game that does knockback and nothing else. In my experience it is. If the mobs are on their back they cannot attack me or the team. If they're knocked into a wall or corner, they're still tightly packed for the fireballs. So, no, I don't trust you here. The scrapper would have been just fine without anybody on the team. I added the bold above to the "There is absolutely..." because that's the point I want to address. There are many situations where KB is a valid solution. Don't tell me you've never been in a team wipe when the tanker falls. Knock can give people time to get away. Knock can give people time to help get the tanker back on his feet. As for single target knock... Giving people crap over single target knocks that throw an individual from a "dumpster burn" is also detrimental to the team. And your energy blaster using power burst is doing twice the damage to the individual that he peels out of the group as your fireball is doing to that individual mob. Only one guy that a single-target player wants to kill does not hurt the team. Of course, given the dumpster burn pov anybody with a kb power should stand at the door and /em dance I guess. |
What you're doing here is arguing from an Us vs Them mentality rather than looking at nuance. Less raging and more reading, IMO.
Additionally, it's not my fault that "dumpster burning" is the most effective way to do missions in this game. I wish the combat system in the game were more dynamic, but it's not. Creating reasons for KB to exist as it does right now isn't just weird, it's unproductive in the context of the debate.
No, I read it in its entirety. I disagreed with it and so picked it apart by the points I disagreed with to respond to them in turn. The "zing" was about you contributing silliness to the thread after calling everyone else out who'd posted something that you thought was silly; you weren't silly for posting in it, you were silly for calling "absolutes" that were more about dumpster burning teams (long gone now and the game is better because of it imo) than anything else.
I did argue your points from an us vs them perspective because quite clearly your post was an us vs them. We've had 1 good suggestion in the thread that would meet the needs of all at a real cost to those who despise knock so much that they need to turn it off, and a lot of us vs them shouting at each other. The "us" who're for leaving knock in the game as it is believe that it works fine as control if used right. The "them" who're anti-knockback seem to be unwilling to accept that it can be used properly and not adversely affect the team.
There's nothing wrong with ST knockback powers. There's still potential for people to be obnoxious with them, but they aren't a big deal.
It's aoe knockbacks that are problematic.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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No I don't fuss about it if they use it well.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'm referring to these people that Socorro and others were talking about who, apparently, violently oppose knockback and are willing to berate their teammates for even using it correctly. Are you saying that that's a rational behavior that is beyond reproach? I think they're a collection of ********. I've never actually met one of these people but if you all assure me that they exist I choose to believe you.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
So, you kick people from teams/leagues when they are incapable of not being idiots with their KB (which is of course you judging it and not just how the player thinks it's okay to play).
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I have the star, if you are unable to not be a detriment to the team/league after I've already asked you to control X behavior, you get kicked.
If they want to play like idiots, they can start their own team.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
And yet, YOU can't play it yourself, because...you can't play it without being an idiot yourself? Is that what you're saying?
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I don't play it because it's an un-enjoyable frustrating mechanic.
I'd love to have more available sets to play, but as long as their are sets saddled with what is to me a useless mechanic, I will not play them.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Am I reading it wrong?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Obviously you don't kick the ones who know how to use it to your happy merriment, and yet you can't play it because you can't play it that way because you think you play like an idiot?
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That's a few times now you've implied I play it like an idiot, most players play it like idiots.
Maybe you're just trying to be insulting, or maybe you should really learn how to read better.
Wow I guess I should have expected that the thread would be totally derailed into a dps discussion.
My original post was about Wormhole. How is knockback in Wormhole a balancing factor for it's damage, if Wormhole is supposed to be doing damage and I'm missing something all this time please enlighten me.
As for the many posters arguing against choice in whether or not I should be able to suppress knockback in my powers or not, all I can do is point to the example of Speedboost.
And also to all the nay-sayers firmly against my ridiculous suggestion, I specifically said that I'm aware that many playstyles enjoy or even depend on knockback. Hence an "option"!
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This has always been a wildly contested argument on both sides, I'm sorry to say. I think you made your request very clear and concise, and in my opinion presented it in a fashion that was totally reasonable.|
Originally Posted by Infinitessa
Wow I guess I should have expected that the thread would be totally derailed into a dps discussion.
My original post was about Wormhole. How is knockback in Wormhole a balancing factor for it's damage, if Wormhole is supposed to be doing damage and I'm missing something all this time please enlighten me. As for the many posters arguing against choice in whether or not I should be able to suppress knockback in my powers or not, all I can do is point to the example of Speedboost. And also to all the nay-sayers firmly against my ridiculous suggestion, I specifically said that I'm aware that many playstyles enjoy or even depend on knockback. Hence an "option"! |
An option.
I would personally like that option. I've played a duo chaos knockback pair with a friend before and it was a lot of fun. Because we chose as two people to do that and have that knockback. That said, I would love to play something like energy blast without the knockback. There are other powersets here and there that have a great power that also does a lot of knockback that I'm not a fan of when I play.
An OPTION to have your knockback on or off would be great.
And for the people who have concern that you'd be forced to turn knockback to team? Well, you have the option of joining all the other people who really do like knockback in the game. They're definitely out there. The fact that we see such a big response on threads like this proves that there are a lot of people who do and do not like knockback. I can't understand how people who enjoy this game so much, and who are proponents of how they have the choice to play knockback sets are some of the same people who are getting extremely upset about the option to turn knockback on or off for your own characters.
Also, dear City of Heroes staffers, I will pay you more of these newfangled points I've been buying for costumes and powers and boosters, for this option as well.
[ QUOTE ]
TheMightyScourge - ...and then your sweet tangy sauce would reduce this chance, but then *they'd* whip out this big old bonus and you'd be all like 'omg what about my sauce'?
[/ QUOTE ]
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An option to play with people who like, or at least don't mind, knocbkack? Who would have thought it. |
Originally Posted by Brandhund
This has always been a wildly contested argument on both sides, I'm sorry to say. I think you made your request very clear and concise, and in my opinion presented it in a fashion that was totally reasonable.
An option. I would personally like that option. I've played a duo chaos knockback pair with a friend before and it was a lot of fun. Because we chose as two people to do that and have that knockback. That said, I would love to play something like energy blast without the knockback. There are other powersets here and there that have a great power that also does a lot of knockback that I'm not a fan of when I play. An OPTION to have your knockback on or off would be great. And for the people who have concern that you'd be forced to turn knockback to team? Well, you have the option of joining all the other people who really do like knockback in the game. |
Honestly I don't see OTHER people complaining as much about knockback any more. Perhaps things die so quickly nowadays with all the +levels and incarnate powers that they figure there's no point, perhaps because many people simply don't use the really big annoying KBs at all.Quote:
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They're definitely out there. The fact that we see such a big response on threads like this proves that there are a lot of people who do and do not like knockback. I can't understand how people who enjoy this game so much, and who are proponents of how they have the choice to play knockback sets are some of the same people who are getting extremely upset about the option to turn knockback on or off for your own characters. Also, dear City of Heroes staffers, I will pay you more of these newfangled points I've been buying for costumes and powers and boosters, for this option as well. |
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When the Blaster first tosses a Fireball at an 8 man +3 spawn before anyone else gets aggro. That would be an improper use of Fireball. Especially if the enemies retaliate with AoEs and you're standing in the middle of the team. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question for you. When, if ever, does a person using Fireball have to 'learn to use it'?
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If anything is to change with knockback, it should be making all the chance for knockback guaranteed. Knockback is one of the most powerful positioning tools in the game, when you can rely on it. I would not hesitate to call Force Bolt one of the most powerful powers in the game, and all it does is hit an enemy to move them where you're aiming.
It's how the world reacts to knockback that's the problem. Where are the environmental hazards? We've got lava, and in lava maps, knockback reigns supreme. But why not have electrified walls, spikes, acid vats (that the Skull chemical vats are covered is such a tease), bottomless pits and so on? Further, in situations where knockback would be awesome, like single tough targets, the target is usually completely immune to knocks. I get why Statesman is, he's an Invul Tanker, but I don't see why I can't knock Ghost Widow or Manticore around. They don't have any KB resist powers, except for the AV status.
I'd love if one of the next incarnate trials had parts where low damage knockback would be perfect. Like moving civilians out of the way, or tossing high resist enemies away from something they need to stay close to.
Now if you wanted to add an effect to ragdolling, you could strip the enemy of any resistance and defense buffs above the base of what their rank allows. Can't very well dodge when you're ragdolling around, can you?
Of course, I'm wholly opposed to having ANY kind of "disable knockback" option in the game. For reasons this thread easily demonstrates. If I have to turn off my knockback, I get to pick a power YOU can't use while you're teamed with me. Deal? Thought not.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Haha, so concise and so true.
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Originally Posted by McNum
Of course, I'm wholly opposed to having ANY kind of "disable knockback" option in the game. For reasons this thread easily demonstrates. If I have to turn off my knockback, I get to pick a power YOU can't use while you're teamed with me. Deal? Thought not.
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I agree with this. This would be a good and welcome change. Mind you, I wouldn't use it on my energy blaster; energy blast's powers are, for the most part, one-direction knockbacks. They're good as a positioning tool. On my Peacebringer, however? Hell yes.
The Peacebringer PBAOE equivalent to hand clap is a different story. In many cases, the fact that it sends mobs in RANDOM directions can be detrimental to team play.
If you're worried about people making you turn it off in teams, don't be. You can learn to do this little thing called "making your own team." No one can kick you off of that. And if you actually have a group of friends to play with, chances are they're not going to kick you or ask you to turn your knockback off; they'd probably understand if you said no, too.
This is a good idea. Hand clap would be AMAZING as a knockdown power instead of a knockback, especially on a tanker. Being able to rotate between hand clap and ground stomp would provide a ridiculous amount of mitigation and you wouldn't be losing aggro because you used hand clap. There's a reason almost nobody takes that power, because YOU CAN LOSE AGGRO IF YOU DO. As a knockdown, it would be amazing. As a knockback, it's a crappy power.
I'll say the same thing about the Peacebringer hand clap. Crappy. Sure, it does damage. But it's annoying, because it flings things everywhere. If it flung thing in one direction? It would be great. But it flings things everywhere, and -that- is the problem.
I don't see a reason why this shouldn't be done. If it's optional, then there's no reason to complain about it. It would make bad powers good, or usable in team settings.
The argument that concept should have anything to do with game balance or quality of life options is also really, really silly. But, I guess if we're going to argue that it should have something to do with game balance, we should all go kick Stalkers in the shin and tell them they shouldn't be arguing about Titan Weapons because obviously it doesn't fit their concept.
Question for you. When, if ever, does a person using Fireball have to 'learn to use it'?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.