City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"

Afterimage

By Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 18:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
The only power in the set that actually does knock things back, Handclap, is almost universally reviled and skipped by nearly ever Super Strength character I have ever come across.
It doesn't have to be. If it kept stuff in your aura, it would make a decent Stupefy mule and a little Flashfire you can work into your chain just as a /Sonic Defender might work Screech into theirs.

 

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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
I could not even begin to list the number of people I have personally been harassed by for this very subject, let alone the number of people I have seen harass others over it. Also, this is, once again, an unnecessarily disingenuous response.
Wait a second, you're alleging KB-based harassment on a grand scale and I'm weird for suggesting you play with jerks? You play with jerks. Now you know.
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The only situation where it can actually be used to deal damage is against an AV or GM if you don't have a reliable way to prevent it from immediately launching your target(s) to the four winds (pardon the pun) on contact.
This is false, sorry.
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No, I require my power combinations to work together, not against each other. For a Blaster, that means I need my attacks to not prevent me from using each other effectively, since, you know, the entire purpose of being a Blaster is... to have access to potent attacks.
Yeah having some knockback in a set along with powers that don't knock back is ridiculous, it's like if there were sets that had taoe powers, pbaoe powers and cones. You can't use all of those powers together, they're at completely cross purposes! Why, it's like you'd have to move around to be able to use them all effectively. Wait a second...
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In what way would it hurt you for the game to allow an optional removal of knockback?
As I've repeated several times now, the harm it would do is in the homogenization of the game. It would remove unique flavor that only this game has for the purpose of what exactly, if not simply buffing some sets in a ham-handed way? You're asking for the devs to solve a problem that only exists in the minds of a vocal minority on the forum. No thank you.
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P.S. Kindly do me the favor of responding to me with the respect I have shown you if you bother to do so at all, again. I do not appreciate being talked down to and I have been nothing but polite to you and everyone else in this conversation. Additionally, I can only assume you're intentionally misinterpreting what I have posted to respond to it in turn as you did in the last section of your post. All you are doing by employing a tactic like that is discrediting your own argument.
Oh, you'd prefer it if I were sanctimonious and self-righteous? I'd rather be open and honest in my abrasiveness actually. Clears the air.
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Are you just pretending to be obtuse?

Super Strength has almost nothing but 0.67 KB, which functions as Knockdown.
As someone else pointed out, SS has three powers that apply high mag KB, but thanks for the insult!
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The OP and those disagreeing are right. If there is a choice given to turn off KB, that's not a choice. It's a requirement for anyone who cares about being able to play at their best. That's the real tragedy of KB. If its proponents would simply accept that it's not this great thing they think it is, we might be able to get some real changes that both address the legitimate concerns of the anti-KB folks and make KB users more valued.
See, I'm perfectly willing to admit that removing KB would be a buff in many cases, but that doesn't make it a good idea. The devs could buff KB sets by simply making all of their powers do judgement damage too. Would that be a good idea? They'd be more effective! I'd like to know what changes you think would improve these sets without making them all drying-paint boring. The extra smashing damage for being tossed into walls thing is a good idea but it's very clearly beyond the capability of the game engine.

 

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Oh and to be somewhat preemptive, here's why the game engine clearly could not support extra smashing damage for ragdoll collisions. Besides the fact that you'd somehow have to distinguish between hard surfaces and shrubbery or risk blatant silliness, what happens when a NPC is knocked off of a slightly elevated area? They're going to hit the floor with far more velocity than would typically be seen if you just knock them horizontally into a wall, but which behavior are you trying to encourage? It isn't incredibly comic-booky for Spider-Man to throw his enemies off of buildings for that extra bit of momentum. Further, what happens when there's just flat ground, is that meant to produce bonus damage or not?

Most of all though, if the idea were to scale the bonus damage based on force, which does seem to be a common feature in these musings, the devs suddenly have to wildly rebalance a load of sets. Is power push meant to be a boss-wrecker? Presumably it would be in this scenario, delivering, as it can, 20+ mag KB. Or, if there were simply a flat proc for any KB power, how strong is strong enough? How strong is too strong? Is it going to make sense to see a large enemy basically just get lightly pushed over by some mag 1.01 knock effect and take an additional hit, whereas enemies that get flipped end over end by air superiority take no additional damage because they haven't ragdolled?

 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Oh, you'd prefer it if I were sanctimonious and self-righteous? I'd rather be open and honest in my abrasiveness actually. Clears the air.
As someone else pointed out, SS has three powers that apply high mag KB, but thanks for the insult!
I forgot about Hurl.

I forgot about it, because its the other high mag KB power that nearly everyone skips.


The third you are thinking of would be KO Blow. It does not do KB.


You're original point about SS being popular is still wrong. It's not popular because of those two powers, it is however popular in spite of them.

 

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What Nihili touched on pretty much covers the whole issue.

The KB True Believers insist that KB is awesome, gives much needed mitigation, and, by far, most players of non-KB ATs welcome KBers with open arms, or at least have no issues with them.

If you Believers insist this to be true, the an option to turn off KB shouldn't be a problem for you. If true, teams you join should be begging you to turn your wonderful KB back on. Instead we hear laments that, if a non-KB option is provided, then teams will instead request/demand that your KB be turned off.

Why do you pro-KBers fear that? If you really believe that KB is as awesome as you say and most of the players base welcomes it (or at least has no problem with it), then this fear shouldn't exist whatsoever.

Maybe it's time for the dishonesty to stop and admit that. if most of the playerbase starts requesting a Power Property to be disabled (if the option is available), there really and truly is a problem with that Power Property.

 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
As someone else pointed out, SS has three powers that apply high mag KB, but thanks for the insult!
Knockout blow is KnockUp.

Hurl and Hand Clap are considered the must skips of the set.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by Socorro View Post
What Nihili touched on pretty much covers the whole issue.

The KB True Believers insist that KB is awesome, gives much needed mitigation, and, by far, most players of non-KB ATs welcome KBers with open arms, or at least have no issues with them.

If you Believers insist this to be true, the an option to turn off KB shouldn't be a problem for you. If true, teams you join should be begging you to turn your wonderful KB back on. Instead we hear laments that, if a non-KB option is provided, then teams will instead request/demand that your KB be turned off.

Why do you pro-KBers fear that? If you really believe that KB is as awesome as you say and most of the players base welcomes it (or at least has no problem with it), then this fear shouldn't exist whatsoever.

Maybe it's time for the dishonesty to stop and admit that. if most of the playerbase starts requesting a Power Property to be disabled (if the option is available), there really and truly is a problem with that Power Property.
I don't believe that to be the case.

For me...I just like knockback personally and conceptually.

I don't believe it to be the be-all end-all mitigation tool and everyone should love it...as I know and understand the actual "drawbacks" of the power for teaming.

I only believe that I like it personally...and others hate it personally.

So by ONLY having the option to turn it off...will no doubt hurt those who like it.

I would absolutely bet that people would only be teaming with certain players as long as they have the knockback turned off or the -KB IO slotted.

 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Actual CoH gameplay, for all of its snide reducibility to bash guys, guys falls down, is an incredibly complex system. To say that you can generalize one of the most complex effects within that system down to "eh, its bad. it's bad! bad. it." is to demonstrate the extent to which you do not understand the system.
To note that on a single mission set at a particular difficulty, I can solo 2 groups while my teammate lies dead on the ground, but while he's "helping", we die repeatedly to a single group does not require a complex understanding of the game. It simply requires eyes.

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What interests me is the fundamental conceit here that you all do play perfectly. You never make errors, you never dawdle, every second is spent wisely. Really? Are you sure? Look again.
It's not about perfect play. It's about the only power type in the game (possibly apart from intangibility) that can make a character's contribution to a group a negative. It's not just about comparing a character to another hypothetical, it's about a character who contributes more by standing at the door and leaching than by attacking.

Yes, that requires bad play, but it's a much lower threshold of bad play than you can pull off without knockback being involved.

 

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Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
You're making my point for me.

It comes down to egos, selfishness and team kill speed.
So, your point was to list three things and have two of them be selfish and the other be the exact opposite of selfish?

That's an odd point to have. This is about greed, selfishness, and working for the general good and wellbeing of all.

 

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ahhh the interwebs where no discussion can be held without hyperbole

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Knockout blow is KnockUp.

Hurl and Hand Clap are considered the must skips of the set.
Yeah, and I was responding to someone calling me an idiot for suggesting that SS had any KB at all in it.

I have yet to hear anyone suggest a solution to this most grievous of problems that didn't involve making the game more boring and was actually feasible.

 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Yeah, and I was responding to someone calling me an idiot for suggesting that SS had any KB at all in it.

Of course, those two powers are the ones nearly every player skips.

As I said, SS is popular in spite of those powers. Not because of them.

 

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That's great man, especially since what you quoted me saying was in response to this:

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It does feel really cool and super-hero-y when you knock a guy over a railing or ragdoll makes a guy do something funny, and it's too bad that's currently banished to a few under-played power sets.
So in other words, I was and remain completely correct.

 

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So let's get this straight re. SS:
Of the 9 powers in the set 4 have no kb
Only 2 of those 4 are attacks
Jab and KO blow - which (KO) has a knockup and hold in it.
The other 2 powers are Rage and taunt

ALL other powers in SS have Knockback in 'em. Whether people think handclap sucks or hurl sucks or haymaker or punch for that matter is irrelevant. The set has a ton of KB in it.

 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
So in other words, I was and remain completely correct.
Do you think people are playing SS for Hurl and Handclap?

Sorry, you don't get to use SS as a posterboy for having KB and then conveniently ignore that the two high mag KB powers are almost universally reviled and skipped.

That should tell you something about how bad KB is.

 

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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
Do you think people are playing SS for Hurl and Handclap?

Sorry, you don't get to use SS as a posterboy for having KB and then conveniently ignore that the two high mag KB powers are almost universally reviled and skipped.

That should tell you something about how bad KB is.
Maybe if you keep harping on something I was never saying to begin with it will draw attention away from the now-clear fact that you've been quite awful to me for essentially no reason. The part I'm not understanding is that somehow I'm the one who has been mean and nasty in this thread. How interesting it all is!

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
So let's get this straight re. SS:
Of the 9 powers in the set 4 have no kb
Only 2 of those 4 are attacks
Jab and KO blow - which (KO) has a knockup and hold in it.
The other 2 powers are Rage and taunt

ALL other powers in SS have Knockback in 'em. Whether people think handclap sucks or hurl sucks or haymaker or punch for that matter is irrelevant. The set has a ton of KB in it.
What set are you looking at?

Jab - Stun
Punch - KnockDOWN
Haymaker - KnockDOWN
Taunt - Taunt
Hand Clap - KnockBack
Knockout Blow - KnockUP
Rage - Buff
Hurl - KnockBack
Footstomp - KnockDOWN

I'm seeing two powers with KB. The same two everyone skips.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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My take on Knockback is that it is cool looking and that I would hate to significantly remove it from the game because it is iconic to the super hero genre. However, I also believe Knockback is inherently flawed, often disruptive, rarely helpful in a team environment, and probably unfixable. I think we should be able to either turn it off or change it to Knockdown.

Personally I don't prefer the Null the Gull option. I'd rather a toggle in the vein of Dual Pistols. There are a few rare occasions when I really do want KB to possibly trigger.

In any case, even if we get a toggle/Null option/nothing, I think knockback still needs more reasons to use. One possibility is that any time someone suffers from an uncontrolled fall (a fall from knockback, versus deliberately jumping from a high point) they should take massive damage. At least give knockback users that much. Any utility tied to knockback should be connected to actually manuevering the enemy from one location to another; if it's just extra damage attached to the attacks, it will mean it will still be more ideal to just -kb the enemies and wail on them with the power.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
What set are you looking at?

Jab - Stun
Punch - KnockDOWN
Haymaker - KnockDOWN
Taunt - Taunt
Hand Clap - KnockBack
Knockout Blow - KnockUP
Rage - Buff
Hurl - KnockBack
Footstomp - KnockDOWN

I'm seeing two powers with KB. The same two everyone skips.
Ok oh wizard of the power set... what happens if you slot 2 kb enh in Footstomp? Doesn't matter that nobody would or does.... what happens? Tell me its still knockDOWN because if it were KnockDOWN KB enh couldn't possibly change that.

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
What set are you looking at?

Jab - Stun
Punch - KnockDOWN
Haymaker - KnockDOWN
Taunt - Taunt
Hand Clap - KnockBack
Knockout Blow - KnockUP
Rage - Buff
Hurl - KnockBack
Footstomp - KnockDOWN

I'm seeing two powers with KB. The same two everyone skips.
Ok oh wizard of the power set... what happens if you slot 2 kb enh in Footstomp? Doesn't matter that nobody would or does.... what happens? Tell me its still knockDOWN because if it were KnockDOWN KB enh couldn't possibly change that.
You're splitting hairs. Yes, Punch, Haymaker, and Footstomp are technically knockback effects. They're designed and implemented to be knockdown. In fact, they used to be knockback but their MAGs were specifically reduced to make them knockDOWN.

This is actually a very common thing among the release Tanker melee sets. Super Strength, Stone Melee, Battle Axe, and War Mace all did high MAG knockback, but they were slowly all reduced to MAG ~0.67 (aside from a few token powers like Hand Clap).


Actually, that's an interesting example:
What is one of Stone Melee's signature powers? Fault.
What is one of Super Strength's most skipped powers? Hand Clap.

The main difference? MAG 0.67 knockdown vs MAG 5.19 knockback.

 

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Originally Posted by Sarrate View Post
You're splitting hairs. Yes, Punch, Haymaker, and Footstomp are technically knockback effects. They're designed and implemented to be knockdown. In fact, they used to be knockback but their MAGs were specifically reduced to make them knockDOWN.

This is actually a very common thing among the release Tanker melee sets. Super Strength, Stone Melee, Battle Axe, and War Mace all did high MAG knockback, but they were slowly all reduced to MAG ~0.67 (aside from a few token powers like Hand Clap).


Actually, that's an interesting example:
What is one of Stone Melee's signature powers? Fault.
What is one of Super Strength's most skipped powers? Hand Clap.

The main difference? MAG 0.67 knockdown vs MAG 5.19 knockback.

Of course I'm splitting hairs. I know how the mechanism works. But the fact of the matter is if you look at the power it is KB. The anti KB crowd can say it isn't as long as they give it a new name - but that's not the power effect.

meh... I'm coming off as religiously pro-kb... I'm not actually. I like it, I know lots of other people don't, I think people should learn how to use it before poo-pooing it.

I remain against the idea of being able to turn off kb from a power by speaking to a npc. I like the idea of a -mag KB enhancer that was proposed upstream.

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
Of course I'm splitting hairs. I know how the mechanism works. But the fact of the matter is if you look at the power it is KB. The anti KB crowd can say it isn't as long as they give it a new name - but that's not the power effect.
Then you know that knockdown is a colloquialism for a knockback effect with a MAG of 0.7 or less. We know it's classified as knockback, but the result is knockdown.

It'd be like saying "fear" doesn't exist in the game... it's actually "terrorize."
Burn patches didn't "fear" mobs... it's actually an "avoid" effect.
"Defense Debuff Resistance" doesn't exist... it's just Defense Resistance, but it only effects debuffs because buffs are flagged as unresistible.

It doesn't matter because everyone understands the vocabulary being used.


Why would anyone want to say "knockbacks with MAG 0.7 or less are superior to knockbacks with a MAG greater than 0.7" instead of "knockdown is superior to knockback"?

So, since both sides knew what the other was saying, exactly what was the point in nitpicking in the first place?

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
I think people should learn how to use it before poo-pooing it.
Do know how to use it. It's still not effective.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Do know how to use it. It's still not effective.
In your opinion. That's the problem here.... you're (seeming) religiously anti-kb as much as I was appearing religiously pro. It gets people shouting past one another and not discussing solutions. "It sux!" "It rox!" doesn't accomplish anything in this discussion.

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
Ok oh wizard of the power set... what happens if you slot 2 kb enh in Footstomp?

You get called out for world-class crap slotting. I would probably quit that team just on principle.