"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 18:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
In addendum: If it's something the devs simply can't do due to the game engine, that's understandable.
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Which power?|
Originally Posted by McNum
If I have to turn off my knockback, I get to pick a power YOU can't use while you're teamed with me. Deal? Thought not.
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So for example, which powers would you ask your teammates in this team not to use:
1. You
2. Will/Dual Blades Tanker
3. Kin/Energy Scrapper
4. Plant/Psi Dominator
5. Illusion/FF Controller
6. Cold/Ice Defender
7. Fire/Pain Corruptor
8. SS/Regen Brute
I actually have each of these characters so I'm curious. I might even agree with you.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I can see how they could do what the OP is asking for. But, I can't see them doing it.
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Originally Posted by Exclius
In addendum: If it's something the devs simply can't do due to the game engine, that's understandable.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yes, because Explosive Blast would knock back some of the enemies, causing the retaliation to be staggered and delayed, allowing the teammates to get their attacks off before the enemies get a chance to fire back.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I expected that answer. Next question. Is that any different than if you used Explosive Blast in the same situation?
See, getting more aggro than you can handle is a problem for all characters. KB is not. Personally, if Explosive Blast wasn't a proc and instead a guaranteed chance, it would be better. |
Thus, tossing in Explosive Blast as an opener, while still not a good idea, is still a better option than Fireball. I'd suggest Energy Torrent, though. Easier to aim, and more reliable knockback. Or Power Burst on a Boss, but you need to get closer to do that, and by that time, the rest of the team should already have taken a shot.
I also expected that reply.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Which power?
So for example, which powers would you ask your teammates in this team not to use: 1. You 2. Will/Dual Blades Tanker 3. Kin/Energy Scrapper 4. Plant/Psi Dominator 5. Illusion/FF Controller 6. Cold/Ice Defender 7. Fire/Pain Corruptor 8. SS/Regen Brute I actually have each of these characters so I'm curious. I might even agree with you. |
This is not being fair, mind you, it's about me being as big a nuisance to them as they are to me. One might also call it "making a point", although that comes second. I'm just getting sick and tired of knockback being the Devil, when frankly, it's not. It's also not the tool for every problem, of course, but it's handy to have, and I miss it when I play a character who doesn't have any knockback. If I could have one power on all my characters, it'd be Force Bolt. No, the Nemesis Staff doesn't count, it recharges too slow.
If I were to actually be reasonable, there are a few powers there that I could see not wanting. Like for the coming TPN trial, any uncontolled pets, like the Illusions and Plants pets should really stay in the power tray for some parts. Since destroying cameras and scaring civilians can cause the trial to fail. But the same goes for any lasting AoEs, really. No Rain of Fire, no Sleet, no Blizzard, no PBAoE attacks unless you REALLY check your targets first, and so on. Carrion Creepers are right out. But that's mission specific, and there aren't really that many missions where "blasting everything with AoEs" isn't the best solution. There are also very few missions where you want Force Bubble or Detention Field, but in those few there are, it's one of the best tools in the game. Like a Force Bubble to block the exploding zombies in the Sutter TF, or using Detention Field to lock away the Abomination in the Halloween trial when hunting zombies, or caging a tower in the STF, to make life easier for the Taker holding Recluse's attention while we take out another tower. Very situational, mind you.
This is also part of a problem for knockback and CoH. It's a little of a relic from the original design where we'd fight three minions. With fewer targets, knockback is much more useful, after all. Which is why it annoys me that AVs are just so immune to knockback. I've tried doing the math on getting Force Bolt up to silly magnitude to actually beat that, but I can't make it work, sadly. I would SO overslot Force Bolt for knockback if I could get it to AV knock level. I would make an IO build with the sole intention of beating the knockback resistance on just one single AV. Just to show it'd be possible. But I don't think it is...
I do know how it is to want to get rid of some part of the game, as I was one of those guys when it came to Sonic Resonance back when it had the headsplitting animation. But medical reasons is a fair excuse in my book. DPS and scatter? Not so much.
I've been thinking of making a Storm/Energy Defender, just to show how it's done properly, but I'm thinking Storm/Ice now. Better theme. An Ice/Storm Controller is just sidestepping the point as you can lock the enemies down and prevent knockback with that.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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I doubt most people are thinking about DPS when they're talking about not liking to play knockback heavy sets. I, personally, am thinking about how annoying it is to chase every single enemy I have to fight down, in a different direction, when playing a Peacebringer. |
Originally Posted by McNum
I do know how it is to want to get rid of some part of the game, as I was one of those guys when it came to Sonic Resonance back when it had the headsplitting animation. But medical reasons is a fair excuse in my book. DPS and scatter? Not so much.
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Being frustrated by a game is not a good thing.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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That's exactly why a lot of players dislike KB in the first place.|
Originally Posted by McNum
Of course, I'm wholly opposed to having ANY kind of "disable knockback" option in the game. For reasons this thread easily demonstrates. If I have to turn off my knockback, I get to pick a power YOU can't use while you're teamed with me.
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KB gives the KB player the ability to literally deny other players the effective use of their powers.
This is one of the reasons radial KB scatter is so loathed.
As an aside, I don't see much validity in the argument "the powerset is designed around knockback as a disadvantage" crowd (note that I distinguish between this and the people who enjoy knockback for itself). The developers have come up with plenty of new powersets since the game first released. And aside from the aforementioned Peacbringers if memory serves correctly most avoid knockback entirely, or if they have it it's knockdown instead, or just one power.
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Nope. By scattering those few mobs, you've made it harder for the Tanker/Brute/Scrapper to take aggro from you. This is not theorycraft. I actually do have two KB heavy characters a Peacebringer and a Energy Blaster. I'm also pretty crazy a player so I've seen how using both Explosive Blast and Fireball work in a spawn. Using the Fireball, makes the melee focused NPCs head right toward you. Running behind the tank allows him or her to snatch them up. The ranged focused NPCs just start shooting, but they stay in formation (Except those damnable Longbow Eagles), allowing for follow-on AoE retaliation by your team.|
Originally Posted by McNum
Yes, because Explosive Blast would knock back some of the enemies, causing the retaliation to be staggered and delayed, allowing the teammates to get their attacks off before the enemies get a chance to fire back.
Thus, tossing in Explosive Blast as an opener, while still not a good idea, is still a better option than Fireball. I'd suggest Energy Torrent, though. Easier to aim, and more reliable knockback. Or Power Burst on a Boss, but you need to get closer to do that, and by that time, the rest of the team should already have taken a shot. I also expected that reply. |
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| For all the Melee types, I'd pick their status protection. Not because it annoys me, but if they want to take my Force Bolt away, they lose their most precious power, too. |
I don't necessarily think that's comparable to asking the Peacebringer to not use Solar Flare.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Even though my original post wasn't about damage, I can't help but point out an obvious fact which seems to be getting missed. Damage (from all sources) is also a form of damage mitigation, since a dead NPC is zero threat. So yes you could argue that scattering a group of enemies across the room is helping the team, but it is just as valid to argue (and has been for years) that if you had left them clumped up they would have died faster any ways.|
Originally Posted by McNum
Yes, because Explosive Blast would knock back some of the enemies, causing the retaliation to be staggered and delayed, allowing the teammates to get their attacks off before the enemies get a chance to fire back.
Thus, tossing in Explosive Blast as an opener, while still not a good idea, is still a better option than Fireball. I'd suggest Energy Torrent, though. Easier to aim, and more reliable knockback. Or Power Burst on a Boss, but you need to get closer to do that, and by that time, the rest of the team should already have taken a shot. I also expected that reply. |
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For all the Melee types, I'd pick their status protection. Not because it annoys me, but if they want to take my Force Bolt away, they lose their most precious power, too. Force Bolt is what keeps me alive when a rogue enemy decides that it'd much rather beat up the Forcefield Defender than the Brute. They get a trip back to Brute-land for that effort. I don't need to kill the enemy doing that, I just have to make sure that it lands somewhere unsafe. You know, actual aimed knockback. I'm not the type to rush into a spawn and knock them all who knows where, even if the secondary is Energy. I try to aim for the enemy between me and the Tanker, if we have one. This is not being fair, mind you, it's about me being as big a nuisance to them as they are to me. One might also call it "making a point", although that comes second. I'm just getting sick and tired of knockback being the Devil, when frankly, it's not. It's also not the tool for every problem, of course, but it's handy to have, and I miss it when I play a character who doesn't have any knockback. If I could have one power on all my characters, it'd be Force Bolt. No, the Nemesis Staff doesn't count, it recharges too slow. |
But I am still curious how in your mind an OPTION to suppress a secondary effect of a power is equivalent to being FORCED to do so? Are you worried that you will get kicked off of teams for not choosing to suppress knockback if this hypothetical change were to be implemented? I can't imagine that it would be any more often than how ever many times you are currently kicked off teams for using your knockback powers. For myself, years of on-and-off playing it's never happened to me but your mileage may vary.
In the end I doubt that your opinion or mine will matter in the short term. The current model of CoH appears to be to keep throwing out new, shiny, better (whether they are powers, costumes, or content) not to revisit old issues. But if the developers do put in an option to suppress knockback with Null the Gull I'll be sure to remind them to also put an option to suppress status protection.
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Oddly, you consider someone switching off your KB as being annoying to the point that they should lose an entire power in return. Even though the whole reason they'd even wish that upon someone is that KB is a nuisance on teams right this second without anyone having to lose any powers at all. It's almost as if your actual stance is "I insist upon being a nuisance one way or another."|
Originally Posted by McNum
For all the Melee types, I'd pick their status protection. Not because it annoys me, but if they want to take my Force Bolt away, they lose their most precious power, too. Force Bolt is what keeps me alive when a rogue enemy decides that it'd much rather beat up the Forcefield Defender than the Brute. They get a trip back to Brute-land for that effort. I don't need to kill the enemy doing that, I just have to make sure that it lands somewhere unsafe. You know, actual aimed knockback. I'm not the type to rush into a spawn and knock them all who knows where, even if the secondary is Energy. I try to aim for the enemy between me and the Tanker, if we have one.
This is not being fair, mind you, it's about me being as big a nuisance to them as they are to me. One might also call it "making a point", although that comes second. I'm just getting sick and tired of knockback being the Devil, when frankly, it's not. It's also not the tool for every problem, of course, but it's handy to have, and I miss it when I play a character who doesn't have any knockback. If I could have one power on all my characters, it'd be Force Bolt. No, the Nemesis Staff doesn't count, it recharges too slow. |
It's also worth noting that you couldn't "lose" Force Bolt or Explosive Blast or any other KB power. If they were changed to KD they'd still do damage and they'd still provide mitigation. Most of the time the difference in mitigation between KB and KD is very minor. And the pros of high mag KB would be heavily offset by the fact that now people can actually apply their debuffs to unscattered spawns, or attack all the enemies at once, make sure everyone is taunted, and so on. These are all vastly more useful than being able to knock down a spawn once or twice.
You're even equating to changing a power from KB to KD to making a character lose arguably their most important power. While you could argue that Force Bolt may be your most important power (though I would definitely disagree that your ability to knockdown one boss is as important as the entire role of a Tank), it would still be strong mitigation even if you turned it into KD. You aren't losing the entire power and its ability to chain-knock bosses or whatever you might be doing with it. It would still be able to do that. It's not even close to the same thing as making it so a Tank can't tank.
It's also worth noting that nobody here has rallied for an option to turn off the knockback powers of other people, or get rid of knockback gamewide. If it was instituted you'd have to turn it off yourself. So if you wound up "losing" Force Bolt, it would be because you did it yourself. There are people, like me, who don't like the KB in powers of characters they own, who would turn it off. People like you can leave it on. And then everyone is happy (I've never understood why people argue against "everyone is happy" solutions when they themselves stand to lose nothing).
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Because as many have admitted in this thread, if the option to disable knockback were there, they'd either refuse to team with people who chose to use knockback or they'd simply kick them straight away. Or, as I theorize, if they saw someone using knockback they'd begin a short speech about its many flaws and the improved utility of knockdown, and how everyone would be so much happier if you'd just visit null the gull quickly, wouldn't they?
Do you think I'm wrong?
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Yes. The majority of players don't care about this sort of thing, it's mostly the long-term vets who pay attention to things like spawn kill speed and AoE efficiency. When I get on a team with someone who's spamming KB like crazy, it's annoying. I don't kick them. And I wouldn't if this option existed.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Because as many have admitted in this thread, if the option to disable knockback were there, they'd either refuse to team with people who chose to use knockback or they'd simply kick them straight away. Or, as I theorize, if they saw someone using knockback they'd begin a short speech about its many flaws and the improved utility of knockdown, and how everyone would be so much happier if you'd just visit null the gull quickly, wouldn't they?
Do you think I'm wrong? |
If it was instituted it would be mostly for players to do for themselves and make powersets more tolerable for themselves. If people did get threatened or kicked it would be A) no more common than it is now, B) on Freedumb.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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People who are this opposed to KB can do this right now.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Because as many have admitted in this thread, if the option to disable knockback were there, they'd either refuse to team with people who chose to use knockback or they'd simply kick them straight away.
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How can the pro-KB crowd insist KB is as amazing as it is, and live in such fear that an option to turn it off would see them kicked and barred from teams?
If it really was an amazing power, people would be clamoring for its use.
The funny part, Dispari, is when not ten minutes after your optimistic rebuttal Deus comes along and affirms what I was saying.
Okay, let me clear up on why Force Bolt NEEDS to be knockback. The entire purpose of that power is a near instant recharge "YOU! Over there! NOW!" power. It's a positioning tool, a fairly good one at that, and making it knockdown would make it useless. It's not that second that the enemy is flopping around that's worth it, it's that the enemy is now ten feet that-a-way that's worth it. It's a beautiful single purpose power that does exactly what it needs to, when you need it to. It even works on flying enemies.
If there's a toggle to disable knockback, there'll be an even bigger social stigma to knockback, and frankly I'm tired of that as it is. If the option exists, it might as well BE an option to turn off someone else's knockback, and that means losing more than one of my powers just because someone else can't handle to see all the enemies bunched up in a tight little group for maximum AoE all the time. Trust me, if that minion goes flying, you don't need to chase, I got it. I mean, it's not like anything that's an actual threat is even able to be knocked around. Stupid AV immunity...
And as for what I gain from choosing to disable status protection in melee characters? To stop them wasting endurance on that since I can do that part for them, obviously. Well, it's a justification after the fact, of course, since that is a basically vindictive idea, like most of these "Disable knockback!" ideas are. But to be honest, there are a few powers that genuinely do annoy me, but I'd never call on those to have their most useful parts removed. (Although if someone were to remove the growls from the Demons or that sound from Hasten, go right ahead.)
Do some people abuse knockback? Of course. I'll happily admit that occasionally, I knock someone a bit too far, or not far enough, but that's a problem that's easily solved. Besides, if I wanted to annoy the melee people, I got Force Bubble. If I have to lose knockback so I can't get enemies off me, I'll just have to use that instead. Might be a bit overkill, though.
So I oppose any and all of these vindictive attempts to make a way to indirectly force people to disable their own knockback in the game, as this thread shows, this is NOT something I want to have to deal with in the game. It is possibly, and fairly easy too, to use knockback in a sane way in this game, you know. Do I wish knockback was better? Of course! It's tricky to aim and it really only works as a short duration Hold, so giving something extra would be nice, but an option to disable it isn't it.
I'll give you that "Chance for knockback" is annoying, though. Especially on AoEs. Give me 100% with a shorter distance to compensate and I'd be much happier with Energy Blast. Fire Blast doesn't have "Chance to DoT", why does Energy Blast have to only have its secondary fire off occasionally?
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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No he didn't. He said people would already be doing it. Which they really aren't. The argument is that if there was a way to get rid of knockback, people in the game would ban knockback on teams. There's already a way to get rid of knockback: not invite those characters, or kick them from the team. If people really were as extreme as you claim about avoiding knockback, they'd be doing it right now.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The funny part, Dispari, is when not ten minutes after your optimistic rebuttal Deus comes along and affirms what I was saying.
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In fact, in that scenario, disabling knockback from sets like Energy Blast would make them welcome on a team. They could actually join a team and play. Unlike this hypothetical scenario where nobody's inviting Energy Blast characters at all.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Because as it stands in reality, it would be mental to kick people for using KB since there's no way to avoid having it if you've chosen one of a large array of sets. As I've said, I have no personal experience of people shrieking at KB users, much less kicking them, yet people in this thread are saying it happens. Now make it possible to toggle KB off and you validate that attitude. You say, "Yes, crazy person, you've always been right to hate KB and now you're so right that we've added a game system supporting your correctness! Anyone who still uses KB really does have the mental problems and questionable ancestry that you've always suspected they did!" This is the wrong approach to game balance.
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Using knockback already does that to other players. |
Originally Posted by McNum
Of course, I'm wholly opposed to having ANY kind of "disable knockback" option in the game. For reasons this thread easily demonstrates. If I have to turn off my knockback, I get to pick a power YOU can't use while you're teamed with me. Deal? Thought not.
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So, your vindictive, worse case scenario is an exact mirror of the way the game is now - with KB players being able to negate the powers of other players. It's like you're only willing to give up your current way of disrupting a group if you're granted some other way of disrupting the group.
The difference, rsclark, is that some people are asking for the removal of a big part of the game. By the logic you're using, we can either have vindictive, hateful teams that have more options or self-loathing, appalling teams that have fewer options. Of those two appealing options I choose the former, particularly since it's how the game has always worked and it doesn't require any changes.
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People in this thread are saying it basically never happens. No more often than people kicked from teams for not having enough purples. Yes, that has happened -- but has it ever happened to you? Do you think it's happened to more than a handful of people? It's an isolated incident, just a few misguided elitist players. I've heard of that happening, but I'm not panicking about my characters being kicked from teams over it. Saying "it has happened according to people in this thread" doesn't mean it's going to be a common occurrence.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
As I've said, I have no personal experience of people shrieking at KB users, much less kicking them, yet people in this thread are saying it happens.
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Trying to claim it's going to be rampant is a wild stretch from an already wild stretch.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Gee Dispari, that's a funny thing to say since the justification for getting rid of KB depended on the apparently-obvious fact that everyone hates it, which was supported by the accounts of players being debased for using KB. Are you saying that it isn't really as bad as its opponents in this thread were arguing?
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You're seriously stretching everything that's being said. There's a huge gap between "I don't like KB and it's an annoyance" to "I will kick and ban all people who have even one KB power from my team."
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Gee Dispari, that's a funny thing to say since the justification for getting rid of KB depended on the apparently-obvious fact that everyone hates it, which was supported by the accounts of players being debased for using KB. Are you saying that it isn't really as bad as its opponents in this thread were arguing?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If someone else doesn't want to reduce/turn off knockback on their powers, all power to them.
I just want an option for myself. then I might actually take and use Electrical Manipulation's Thunder Strike, Peacebringer's Solar Flare, Super Strength's Handclap, etc. My Energy Blaster could join any team without me feeling like I'm being counterproductive to the team's effort by constantly scattering, and I wouldn't annoy the Willpower, Invulnerability, etc Brute who finally got all the ranged preference mobs into a nice tight pack around a corner by scattering them, reducing their survivability, and making them lose aggro control over some of the mobs (which then aggro on teammates).
I can understand the worry/fear over the availability of such a system, but honestly, do you think having an option there is going to make teaming any different with people who don't like knockback? Most people aren't that 'intense', I would say.
Anyways, I can understand the arguement on both sides. Perhaps we could see some of the less taken/used powers changed to knockdown instead? I know Peacebringers have been petitioning for Solar Flare for years. I'd looove to see Electrical Manipulation's Thunder Strike changed to the Brute version.
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No, we're asking for the exact same treatment that other severely annoying effects like un-asked for speed boosts, team teleports and group fly got. The option to turn it off.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The difference, rsclark, is that some people are asking for the removal of a big part of the game.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
You're seriously stretching everything that's being said. There's a huge gap between "I don't like KB and it's an annoyance" to "I will kick and ban all people who have even one KB power from my team."
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That's pretty much PR's only way of posting.
See, getting more aggro than you can handle is a problem for all characters. KB is not. Personally, if Explosive Blast wasn't a proc and instead a guaranteed chance, it would be better.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.