"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"

So, to sum up ...

We've had Geko express surprise that tankers didn't appreciate KBing their mobs outside of melee range (distance as damage mitigation, doncha' know). I'd pull up a link, but most of Geko's posts have been incinerated.

Statesman going on'n'on about distance as damage mitigation, specifically for squishies, in the forums and PMs. His post detailing the benefits FF brings to a team amounted to a sales pitch of FF's non-buffs -- Repulsion Bomb was a "hidden gem" (note: it was changed shortly after his post); Force Bubble allowed ranged toons to leverage distance for the ghetto damage debuff; etc..

In Castle's drumroll please thread we have, referencing Dispersion Bubble, "The built in Status Protection is invaluable, especially with Scrapper and Tankers Status Protections reduced." Only ... DB has an AoE of 18', Force Bubble 50'. Either the squishies don't get the game's ultimate distance as damage mitigation tool, or scrappers can't scrap without Dispersion Bubble's darn near necessary mez protection.

Board lore has it that PB KB is a balancing factor.

Some immobs confer KB protection to mobs.

What it all boils down is that ... the devs have had seriously conflicting opinions about KB (and its sister effect, repel) since, more or less, release. On one hand, "OMG mitigation!" on the other, "But, yeah, we'll let you team up with controllers who can keep a spawn together 'cause KB isn't THAT good."

And the players reflect these opinions (and a few more).

The thing is ... everyone's kinda' right. KB IS damned annoying if you're playing an AoE-centric melee toon and moderately annoying even if you're focusing on ST attacks. KB can be a great tool for mitigation (Force Bubble? OK, it's not KB, but it costs virtually no endurance, has no AoE cap, and reliably reduces incoming damage by 20%). And KB can cause some ginormous flustercucks when, for instance, a mob with an anchored debuff goes flying into a second spawn.

I dunno. I think my opinions mirror those of the devs.

I love Force Bolt, but hated the old high mag KB versions of Repulsion Bomb with a white hot passion.

I love seeing (Energy) Torrent used to KB mobs into a dropped patch, but I sometimes feel the urge to /kick numnutzen who KB mobs OUT of a patch.

I've seen -KB fug up slippery patches, but I've also seen -KB make squids squee.

I have a feeling that the devs have never quite got a handle on KB should and shouldn't be. What would I like? I'd like the devs to implement the Null the Gull idea for some powers, those where the KB is supposed to be a beneficial secondary effect (I'm looking at you Electron Haze) that frequently makes the power less than desirable.

Regarding hand clap, we need to consider that it isn't just a power in isolation, it's a power in arguably the most popular set in the game, a set which already contains one of the aoe attacks with the strongest mitigation available in the game. If hand clap did KD, a high recharge build would I think be able to alternate hand clap and foot stomp in such a way that enemies never got a chance to stand up. I don't remember what hand clap's recharge is, if it's twenty seconds or less then that is true. If it's thirty seconds or more then you'd have to include another power in the chain as well but it would still provide ludicrous mitigation to a set that does not need any buffs.

Shockwave is, in my view, already very overpowered. It breaks the rules of damage per endurance and recharge in the same way that foot stomp does. The only thing keeping it from being atrociously broken is the fact that it isn't always ideal to knock back an entire spawn. Sometimes that is ideal and it's one of the only powers that can do that as it is. This is combined with the fact that claws is overall one of the better melee sets in the game for both aoe and single target, and already gets extremely potent mitigation from KB-shockwave and focus' guaranteed single target knockdown. Again, if you make a change to the game that increases the power of claws even more, you're begging for nerfs for it.

I don't play PBs because I don't like the form changing thing and they honestly don't seem very good so maybe they could stand a buff. The thing is, you can buff PBs without incidentally buffing all of these other sets. Maybe PBs are in such a sorry state that giving them a better-than-footstomp aoe wouldn't be as insane as it sounds to me. That's a decision that you evaluate entirely in terms of PBs as a whole, though. It shouldn't be a byproduct of something else.

Don't know that I'd really worry about Hand Clap. SSers seems to get along just fine without it, so I'm not sure you'd see people respeccing in droves to take advantage of more mitigation on an AT that probably doesn't need more to begin with.

As for other attacks, one of the reasons I'd prefer an IO is that this makes it a cost-benefit decision. You are potentially giving up damage, recharge, endurance enhancement value or set bonuses in order to turn knock back into knock down.

Course, it's probably entirely academic for two reasons: (a) They haven't figured out how to do it yet and (b) Given how they sometimes seem to be sticklers for concept, they probably don't WANT powers that conceptually seem like they should only do knock-back to do knock-down.

I totally agree that the best option suggested thus far is enhancements. In my opinion it would be ideal if it took two slots to completely reduce a high mag knockback effect to knockdown. That would be much closer to balanced and would give people who really truly hate knockback a way to get around it without making it in any way a reasonable expectation that people would always choose to do it. I know EvilGeko has said that they tried and failed to do this but I'm pretty sure that if they really wanted to they could find a way. My suspicion, though, is that even this is going further than they think is a good idea for balance. Sure, you couldn't get the best set bonuses out of shockwave anymore, but you could still fill it with hami-Os and go to town in AE.

Maybe BurningChick has the right idea by suggesting that KB in general not be a toggle, but KB in a couple specific powers be optional. This, though, has that "too fiddly" feel that I think the devs try to avoid to keep the game from looking shoddy. They've said that Null is well outside their comfort zone in the first place, compared to having the toggles be UI options.

I'm not sure how many powers could take a -KB that would want it, and fit other things they need in them as well. Explosive Blast as an example, if you were too cheap for a Ragnarok, you'd probably go with Positron's, which doesn't have enough recharge enhancement for your primary radial damage power. And if you have the money for a Ragnarok, well that sixth slot is an awful tempting place for a Force Feedback +Recharge. And now we're back to square one with Biff McScrapperlock complaining that he has to mouse turn to chase stuff down because you wanted your proc.

Maybe I'm missing something ...

But couldn't the devs buff some powers to grants mobs kb resistance? Mobs that heavily resist KB tend to fall down when they get hit with kb.

Likely powers, IME, would include Tar Patch, OSA, etc..

So the OP's proposal is for us to have the ability to suppress Knockback in powers. On the surface this sounds reasonable, but it's really not. Allow me to explain why.

First, it is true that we are in a different generation of the game than we were in 2004. Now, the devs have seen fit to allow us to tailor our costumes, our powers, and our enhancements to suit the whims of our imagination. We even have different animations for the same melee powers, so we can all get our own unique flavor of beat-down when the time comes.

However, the real reason this proposal will not work has to do with the fact that every attack power in the game comes with a secondary effect. Some effects debuff the target in some fashion, some provide additional DoT, and some create knockback/knockup/knockdown.

The bottom line here is that we should not be able to start tinkering around with the secondary effects of specific abilities, because it can potentially upset the power balance of the game & be exploited by those sufficiently knowledgeable to do so.

I'm all for requesting some balance adjustment & retooling of powers from the devs. There can be no doubt that there is still room for improvement in many areas, and that some of the older power sets have not seen much attention in recent years.

I am not even reading the whole thing..

Directly to the OP!...

Knockback is an essential part of the power! Changing it would result in balancing issues. What you are asking is like... 'Can I let Null the Gull remove my slow recharge on my Nova!'

Now tell me.. does that sound logical to you?

Knockback is a setback of the power to counter the high damage the power does. And to justify the good recharge. No use arguying about this. It will stay anyway.

The options Null the Gull can switch off are options that annoy people in their movement. Not inherent abilities of powers as a whole. If I shoot some npc with a energy blast I am not forcing you to fly or to move away from where you are doing something. You are not obliged to go and kill the npc I shot. And... if an energy blaster shoots someone point blank with a beam hard enough to knock the guy back... he will be dead in 1-2 more shots anyway.

Yes.. I know.. I dare to bring logic into the forums.. Sue me :P