"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"

Enemies you knock back are knocked back away from you. If you're above them they're knocked "back," downward. Which is into the ground. Meaning they don't go anywhere.

People have been using this trick since the game began to turn KB effects into KD. I use it on my Energy Blaster to prevent annoying teams.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I did not know that...since I do not use Hover or Fly while in combat.


So...basically...you're saying that using Hover or Fly while in combat...will take care of this whole KB issue that this whole entire thread is about?

Not entirely, but using Hover, you can angle your shots to change the distance and direction of the knocked back target. With a little practice, you can deliver the target exactly where you want it to be, and if you just want to pummel a boss into the ground to keep it from standing, just hover directly above it and spam your knockback. It'll get spiked into the ground.

It's the difference between learning how to use knockback right and being indirectly forced to turn it off. I prefer the former, because proper knockback is fun. It's also fun to use Hover to angle yourself below an enemy on a rooftop and knock them in a high arc off the building. It's raining snipers!

No. Not all powers work that way. And some are counterintuitive (Hand Clap would work that way but you need to land every time you want to use Foot Stomp). And not all powers can be used while flying.

What I'm saying is that "powers would be too good if they were KD" is already provably false for most powers, including the ones cited (like Shockwave and Solar Flare).

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I guess so...crazy...since everyone is so against Super Strength getting any more AoE because of how strong Footstomp is.

What you're describing is PBs basically have Footstomp with a whole lot more AoE to go with it...as long as you're hovering.

Nah, but a power like Hover does make it easier to aim, allowing for a bit more finesse.

Provably false? Haha, you're going to have to back that one up! But hey, that should be no problem, it's provable!

If by "take care of" you instead mean "limit character concepts", then yes.

And a lower damage base and no rage.

Footstomp level 50 base damage: 63.17

Solar Flare level 50 base damage: 67.12


Anyways...let's leave that for another thread.

Back on topic...sorry for the derail.

If powers like Shockwave and Solar Flare would be too powerful if they did KD, then they're too powerful right now. You can already hover above a spawn and use the powers in that way, which would not cause scatter. Which is supposedly the balancing factor for these powers being "so strong" as-is: the scatter counterbalances it. Since you can already avoid the scatter, the powers are either too strong right now, or what people are saying about them doing KD if things changed being too strong is false.

In other words, it's already possible to do what people are claiming would make the powers too strong.

I don't know what there is left to prove other than "you can hover on a Peacebringer." But if you really need me to prove that, I guess I can.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Standard Code Rant cuts both ways - none of us know how easy or hard the code is.

It could be fairly easy to do, but the Devs are holding back because of other factors, such as some, like Arbiter Hawk, seeing KB as a way to keep a power from being too strong (so let's make it too annoying instead eh?). Not that that proves them right - the Devs have changed their minds about hundreds of things in this game.

I was being sarcastic, as noted by my "/teensy bit of sarcasm" line below my sentence. I don't think hovering solves much of this (outside of limiting concepts). My PB can indeed hover above a spawn and fire off Solar Flare, but it's way hard too find the sweet spot distance above them. If you hover too high, you won't get many (or any) of the mobs - if you hover too low, it can scatter them just as easy as if you were on the ground.

A minor nitpick -- repel is its own effect, even if, IIRC, only three powers in the game have repel (Force Bubble, TK, and Hurricane). I think you meant toggled KB powers like Repulsion Field, Repel (horrible, horrible name) and Sonic Repulsion.

And ... well ...

Before people get too wrapped in KB powers with high damage and KB powers with low damage, it's best to remember that the game has many effects that, in some cases are tied to damage and in other cases, not. -Resistance immediately comes to mind, as do holds in a defender primary compared to holds in a controller primary.

Anyway, Dispari, there are places in the game where you simply can't line up a convenient corner to KB mobs into, or you have no height for hovering over mobs. I do believe that, in some cases, the devs view KB as such a powerful control / damage mitigator as a secondary effect that they're OK with there being a wee bit of balance by annoyance.

FWIW, I think the devs could add proc that gives a chance to grant KB resistance to mobs to an AoE set to help contain KB ... but I don't think that letting squids ROFLstomp mobs in safety with Solar Flare will do anything except give us another farming implement.

If you can't see a difference in being able to, in odd circumstances, use shockwave as an ad hoc knockdown effect and having it only be a knockdown effect with no thought or effort, that'd be weird. I don't think you do have trouble seeing that, but you might not want to admit it.

The thing is I've already told you, in this thread, that yes! Shockwave is currently too strong. Making it even stronger is not going to happen, or if it did happen it would result in an instant, reflexive nerf before the changes even left the test server. Making hand clap into a great, unskippable defensive power in a set that already has rage, KO blow and foot stomp is laughable. Turning solar flare into a power that is better than foot stomp by virtue of doing more damage and also doing better mitigation without resorting to any of these hover shenanigans you're talking about is never going to happen.

I can't prove it but I think it's fairly obvious at this point that the devs regret foot stomp, and they'd probably regret shockwave if anyone bothered to use it. They're way out of balance by current standards but to change them at this point would unleash player fury that would make I13 look like a small tiff. As I've said before, in this very thread, they're not going to go out of their way to add even more badly unbalanced attacks to the game, and they're certainly not going to do so in response to disingenuous complaints about knockback.

Yes they are different, but that doesn't mean one is harder. Has a Dev gone on the record and said that turning off 'Affecting Self/Inherent' powers via Null or some other switch would be a lot harder, code-wise, than what Null can currently do?

Until it is stated that is the case I wouldn't necessarily assume it is true. But then again people assuming what is or is not possible, and what will or will not happen based on these supposed impossibilities seems to be a common trend in this thread.

Look at it this way. If you ever slotted for +KB enhancements or God forbid +intangibility you would know that the magnitude goes up. So it is theoretically possible for Null the Gull to allow me to set my KB magnitude to 0.

I made no assumptions, just some reasonable deductions. Based on the way many power effects work it is clear that a lot is coded into the power definitions themselves. Things like scrapper/stalker criticals, corruptor scourge and the domination effect are coded directly into all powers that can carry out the effect. When the dev's changed fiery embrace in the FA armor set to grant a fire damage DoT they had to modify EVERY attack that could be affected by the power to have that DoT in the power, in fact during the beta there where a number of attacks fiery embrace did NOT work with until they modified those individually. You can tell all of this just by looking at the power descriptions.

Knockback is an effect just like the DoT's, crits and scourge - it is coded into each individual power. Yes, enhancements in a power can change the value of KB but unless all powers with knockback where already coded to look at some global KB value, just like stalker attacks look for the hidden flag or dominator controls look for the domination flag, here is no easy way to set something like this globally.

The only way to do something like this would be to enable global -KB enhancement that worked just like the alpha slot enhancement does, but in a negative manner. The problem with this idea is that Castle already tried creating a -KB enhancer that you could add to individual powers as a solution to the KB complaints and he found that it didn't work, he couldn't reduce KB magnitude for some reason (he didn't go into details). If an individual negative KB enhancement cannot be made to work, a global one like the alpha slot enhancement certainly won't either.

Call it "deducing" if you like, Standard Code Rant still applies.

And by the way, since Dual Pistols was made, the tech has existed for a loooong time to allow the Devs to alter the proc chance of any proc they want, Knockback included, up or down, and to 0% chance if they so choose (in fact, Dual Pistols actually uses this tech to remove the Knockback/Down on its powers when you change from Lethal ammo to any other using a Swap Ammo toggle).

I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

In fact? really? ... I'd be surprised if the logic in the toggles remove any aspect of the lethal ammo on dp. My expectation of the logic is a if then else statement where it reviews the status of your 3 toggles and if none are up then it uses lethal ammo. Knock is a property of the lethal ammo. Knock is not a property of the fire, ice or toxic rounds. I'd deduce that it does not remove any knock attribute at all. Standard code rant applies of course, but this is from a programmers perspective on how I'd do it if attributes like knock, -def, -res etc were hard baked into the powers and not added piece-meal as desired.

Not really, dual pistols looks to work exactly the same way I have described many other things working - the powers in the set are already coded to look at a variable set by the switch ammo power, just like dominator controls look at the domination flag. That is why every effect that a DP attack COULD do shows up there. I see no signs in any of the existing KB powers that they look for a variable to tell whether or not they should do knockback, so I still maintain that the most LIKELY way that the dev's could implement this request would require changing ALL kb powers to look for a 'global KB' flag.

The standard code rant applies to YOUR conclusions just as much as they apply to mine - the difference is I can point to various changes made in powers over time (FA's fiery embrace) and evidence in the current power data that support my conclusion, you are just making a general claim that I must be wrong because I don't have code access.