"Null the Gull, please supress knockback in my powers"
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 18:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I don't think that's a fair gauge at all. The lethal ammo is no where near as effective as the fire, ice or toxic because lethal is so highly resisted throughout the game. I don't use my fire ammo so I don't have knock, I use it so I have more damage. I don't use my ice ammo so I don't have knock, I use it so that I have slow and cold damage. I use my bio ammo for the exotic toxic damage and -dam on the opponents. |
Originally Posted by Gearsinger
I'm curious, and this seems like a valid place to ask.
Dual Pistols can "turn off" their knockback with swap ammo. Do most stick to lethal ammo? Do teams yell at them? I realize there are other factors (damage type/mez stacking), but it seems like it might be a small way to gauge reactions to the ability to not have knockback. |
I think you'd find that any dual pistols user who's being honest about it will say that they don't even think of the Knock when they toggle the swap ammo. It is all about lethal vs elemental (less resisted, more damage).
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Only fire matters for damage because of the dot. A few percentages less resist applied to only 30% of the total damage is effectively meaningless.|
Originally Posted by MikeRobe
I think you'd find that any dual pistols user who's being honest about it will say that they don't even think of the Knock when they toggle the swap ammo. It is all about lethal vs elemental (less resisted, more damage).
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If it weren't for knockback, I would probably run in lethal more often (when teamed) just for the -res in Piercing.
I think Claw may be my most favorite melee set if Shockwave does knockdown. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I'd be content if we has a switch that just made the recent KB bug apply to your character. The bug moved a decimal place in KB-mag from what I understand, making your KB 1/10 of what it normally is --- and I luvz it!
'course, that's probably no easier to do on an individual character basis than any of these other suggestions.
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They don't, actually.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
The standard code rant applies to YOUR conclusions just as much as they apply to mine - the difference is I can point to various changes made in powers over time (FA's fiery embrace) and evidence in the current power data that support my conclusion, you are just making a general claim that I must be wrong because I don't have code access.
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Back when Dual Pistols came out, one of the Powers guys commented that the Ammo system works internally by modifying the %chance to proc each effect.
Sorry, but I don't feel like going through the last two years of dev posts and news to find it for you.
And I am making a general claim that you can proclaim yourself to be no more right than anyone else because you don't have code access. Your theories that aren't founded on explicit dev commentary are no more valid than anyone else's.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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Well, lucky for you, piercing doesn't do kb and you can feel free to swap your ammo before shooting that one (when teamed). I believe you were being a bit dishonest throwing this up for argument though, looking for a leeetle loophole to say "well I would...." . BTW, that's the only one that comes with -res without slotting acheles heel procs.... the others are -def. You can also feel free to use incinderary rounds, drop that toggle for piercing, swap to toxic for your next attack and then back to incinderaray as the toggle will be re-charged by then (if you're fast enough and you have the endurance to blast out like that...)|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Only fire matters for damage because of the dot. A few percentages less resist applied to only 30% of the total damage is effectively meaningless.
If it weren't for knockback, I would probably run in lethal more often (when teamed) just for the -res in Piercing. |
Chem rounds count for damage and so do cold rounds... if you're fighting a fire resistant mob, ice/chem is a boost in damage... that's one of the great things about dp, you can swap based on needs. Fire is, of course, best for pure damage but given various situations you are better off using different ammo... that's what makes dp a fun set to play.
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Actually, there is a very distinct thing here...|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
No, we're asking for the exact same treatment that other severely annoying effects like un-asked for speed boosts, team teleports and group fly got. The option to turn it off.
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The options on Null are internal to a character, reflecting effects that are affecting the character, and not effects that are affecting the enviroment, like the proposal for the -KB.
I am 100% ok on limitating what affects YOU, and only YOU.
I am 100% against on limitating what YOU affect.
And I dont use the word YOU as a way to target you, Deus. My quote of your post is only because it gave me the chance to say this. Its not directed at you.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
Ahh... and just to do a little comment:
How sad that everything on this game boils down on pinning mobs around the tanker and unleashing AoEs.
Guess people lost the feeling of WOOOMP.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
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No, it's just the game mechanics are optimized (heavily so) around AoE. I personally love the Aesthetics of KB and wish the game made it a beneficial thing. But Eye Candy is pretty much all it is, outside of some who use if for mitigation while soloing (they're delusional when they argue that KB mitigation is needed on teams larger than two).
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Originally Posted by KayJMM
Ahh... and just to do a little comment:
How sad that everything on this game boils down on pinning mobs around the tanker and unleashing AoEs. Guess people lost the feeling of WOOOMP. |
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Sure would be nice if KBing into walls of off ledges generated impact damage, or falling damage as a bonus. KB would probably be a bit more popular then.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
No, it's just the game mechanics are optimized (heavily so) around AoE. I personally love the Aesthetics of KB and wish the game made it a beneficial thing. But Eye Candy is pretty much all it is, outside of some who use if for mitigation while soloing (they're delusional when they argue that KB mitigation is needed on teams larger than two).
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Might also help KBs popularity if AoE effects like damage patches and debuffs had a lingering effect on enemies after they left it, and thus if KB didn't immediately save them from whatever effect.
Just a couple of thoughts.
But, until that time, KB is a largely cosmetic benefit, and largely an efficacy detriment, so, I'd also be in favour of allowing one to self limit ones KB at Null the Gull, if such a thing were possible within coding limitations and without breaking something else and without requiring man-hours in the thousands.
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A long time ago, I said that Force Bubble would only become popular if it were better than all the powers it fugged up -- and, for any number of reasons, that can't happen.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Sure would be nice if KBing into walls of off ledges generated impact damage, or falling damage as a bonus. KB would probably be a bit more popular then.
Might also help KBs popularity if AoE effects like damage patches and debuffs had a lingering effect on enemies after they left it, and thus if KB didn't immediately save them from whatever effect. Just a couple of thoughts. |
We once had Statesman strongly imply that Force Bubble should be an always on power (justifying its formerly insane end cost) because it allowed squishies to leverage the generally reduced damage of ranged attacks. He had nothing to say when we pointed out that the 20ish% damage debuff paled in comparison to Darkest Night's debuffs.
For Statesman, Force Bubble wasn't just about increasing performance as much as it was about toggling on the game's biggest and, possibly, most impressive AoE and getting a damage debuff as a side bonus.
In some, weird way Statesman was right. It is insanely cool to see mobs flying, or to see a bubbler with a "don'tcomenearme" zone. But "insanely cool" doesn't get xp or lewt. And sometimes one person's "insanely cool" moment busts up someone else's (OMG! Did you see what RoF did to that spawn!).
What kills me is that the devs seem to have always known that KB is a double-edged sword while telling us that with no ambiguity that distance = mitigation. Why else would we, the players, have more powers that grant KB protection to mobs ... than players?
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The devs made it so that killing lots of minions quickly was the most productive use of players time. It did not need to be so and shouldn't be so. Superheroes have a multitude of means to accomplish their goals, as we used to here. |
Originally Posted by KayJMM
Ahh... and just to do a little comment:
How sad that everything on this game boils down on pinning mobs around the tanker and unleashing AoEs. Guess people lost the feeling of WOOOMP. |
But several nerfs, to phase, stealth, personal force field, and others to ensure that you can't finish a mission without opening yourself to attack means that killing is the highest order activity.
Making it so that the best way to get purple inventions is to murder thousands of minions instead of AVs, creates even more incentives to efficiently leveraging AoEs.
Knockback would have problems even if the above wasn't true. But this just makes it worse.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It would be about the same amount of work as the Fire Embrace change. Basically all powers that have KB now would have to look for the flag. It could work, Castle already verified to me that something very similar could work. But the devs don't want to do that for a variety of reasons.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
The really amusing thing is that all this furor and disagreement is really a moot point - I am fairly sure Null the Gull cannot do what the OP suggest. Think about it - all the things that Null currently turns off are buffs that affect the character, and its fairly simple to set flags on the character to ignore certain buffs (or parts of buffs). In order to disable KB in powers you would have to modify every single power with KB in it to look for a flag on the character and enable/disable KB based on that flag - kinda like the way stalker attacks all look for the hidden flag. If the powers had been designed that way from the start, it might have been possible, but modifying them after the fact is a HUGE amount of work and is certainly not worth the dev effort, regardless of what side of the argument you are on.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I've considered my Peacebringer to be my main since I created him many years ago. As such, I an fully in favor of the option to turn off knockback. If making it an option is too difficult, I would prefer elimination of knockback entirely to the status quo.
Naphil, 50 Peacebringer
Captain Darkspirit, 50 Warshade
Operative Acier, 50 Bane Spider
Durante Ragno, 50 Fortunata
et al.
Do the knockback sets need to be buffed now?
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I agree with your assessment on the jury rig hot fix that null the gull provides, but that doesn't mean null needs to be permanently relegated to solely that kind of option.|
Originally Posted by KayJMM
I am 100% ok on limitating what affects YOU, and only YOU.
I am 100% against on limitating what YOU affect. |
All it means is that I, as well as a large portion of the player base, will continue to avoid playing any power-set or power with high Mag knock back.
Almost none of them are really that great to begin with, that I would be willing to put up with what is either "balance by annoyance" or simply one of the least group friendly mechanics in the game, depending on who you are talking to.
I'm OK with that, because I'm not hurting for options.
Its not like I would suddenly run and remake all of my Fire Blast Corrs into into Energy Blast Corrs.
Fire Blast would still be the better set, but at least at that point Energy Blast would be a better option (to me) than it is now (which is to say its a terrible option, that I will never play).
And contrary to one other poster's continued straw man and ad hominem attacks, I wouldn't suddenly try to squeeze Handclap into any of my SS builds either.
My SS builds already have Foot Stomp on a 5-6s rech on average, they have at least one other solid TAoE if not 2.
The last thing I need in my AoE attack chain is something that doesn't do any damage.
I don't need the mitigation from it now, because I've built my characters with enough mitigation already - and Hand Clap as it is now is as much mess as it is mitigation.
I won't need the mitigation if it ever gets changed, because using it would decrease my ability to deal death. It might at least be in the "nice to have" category.
If Hand Clap only did stun, or only did low mag KB (0.67), it would be useful for leveling builds and builds that couldn't or wouldn't build for Defense - but that's about it.
If I could turn off or slot an IO to reduce high mag KB, I might actually enjoy playing a Peace Bringer. As of right now, I will never touch that AT and have no reason to miss it.
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If I mainlined the entire amount of caffeine I have consumed in my whole life, I would not be twitchy enough to do that reliably without wanting to kill myself.|
Originally Posted by MikeRobe
Well, lucky for you, piercing doesn't do kb and you can feel free to swap your ammo before shooting that one (when teamed).
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| BTW, that's the only one that comes with -res without slotting acheles heel procs.... the others are -def. |
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| You can also feel free to use incinderary rounds, drop that toggle for piercing, swap to toxic for your next attack and then back to incinderaray as the toggle will be re-charged by then (if you're fast enough and you have the endurance to blast out like that...) |
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| Chem rounds count for damage and so do cold rounds... if you're fighting a fire resistant mob, ice/chem is a boost in damage |
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| ... that's one of the great things about dp, you can swap based on needs. Fire is, of course, best for pure damage but given various situations you are better off using different ammo... that's what makes dp a fun set to play. |
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That gives me an idea. Standard code rant applies to this but doesn't it to everything. How often in comics do we see thugs and other minions blasted backward by a Superbeing and knocked out or otherwise incapacitated by their landing? Pretty often right?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The devs made it so that killing lots of minions quickly was the most productive use of players time. It did not need to be so and shouldn't be so. Superheroes have a multitude of means to accomplish their goals, as we used to here.
But several nerfs, to phase, stealth, personal force field, and others to ensure that you can't finish a mission without opening yourself to attack means that killing is the highest order activity. Making it so that the best way to get purple inventions is to murder thousands of minions instead of AVs, creates even more incentives to efficiently leveraging AoEs. Knockback would have problems even if the above wasn't true. But this just makes it worse. |
My proposal is this: Introduce a scaling dmg effect to knockback that is affected by two things. First the magnitude of the knockback after an enemy's knockback protection and resistance are applied determines the base damage. A safe number that makes a good example is 10 damage per point of knockback that makes it through protection and resistance. Then that damage is multiplied by the enemy's class modifier. Minions get a 2, lieutenants get a 1, bosses get a 0.5, EBs and AVs get a 0.25 and Player Characters get a 1(its only fair that if it affects them it affects us). So if a minion gets hit with a mag 4 knockback it does 80 additional smashing damage but if a boss gets hit with a mag 4 it does an additional 20 damage.
The numbers can be played with until they are reasonable and powers that have a very high number can be flagged with a limiter. I only used 10 in the example above because it was an easy number to work with. This would make knockback more damaging to the enemies it is most likely to disperse causing them to be defeated faster. It makes knockback more useful and less annoying to the min-max crowd and the I Love my KB crowd get to do more with their KB.
That and when I go Minion Golfing in the Hollows with Force Bolt when I pop a Troll Slugger into the side of a building the impact will defeat it like it should.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Long thread, didn't read it all.
Problem with the idea of NtG turning off KB in my powers is that it's almost never my own KB that pisses me off, because I can predict it and control for it. It's other people's KB that is infuriating. I have heard of players that toggle Hurricane when needed, or aim their energy torrents towards walls, or use Solar Flare from the edge of the group, but I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have teamed with such a player. I would (conservatively!) estimate that 99% of the players I encounter in game who have KB powers use them indiscriminately and without any care at all. Even worse, some of them actually think they are helping by scattering spawns and using radial KB to spread enemies everywhere. You run into people who actually believe that KBing spawns all over hell's half-acre is mitigating major damage for the team, when in reality it's mitigating damage for the spawn. The best mitigation is killing quickly, and knocking the spawn all over/out of debuffs and rains/spreading them out of AoE radius is not helping to kill. Any tiny mitigation that results from a mob having to get up is worthless when the mob would have been dead as a doornail had it just stayed in place.
The folks who jabber on about "if you hate KB then learn to use it right!" need to understand that no amount of knowing how to use KB helps when it's another player using the KB.
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We see it as often as it makes sense for the story, and not constantly every single frame.|
Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold
That gives me an idea. Standard code rant applies to this but doesn't it to everything. How often in comics do we see thugs and other minions blasted backward by a Superbeing and knocked out or otherwise incapacitated by their landing? Pretty often right?
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As EG already stated in that quote, Superheroes have multiple paths to achieve their goals in comics.
We usually only have one path in this game, the defeat of enemies.
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Unless I failed to notice it, nobody has addressed the fact that popular sets would have to be rebalanced if you suddenly made them so much better at murdering thousands of minions to get purple inventions, thus making their time so much more productive than comparable sets.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The devs made it so that killing lots of minions quickly was the most productive use of players time. It did not need to be so and shouldn't be so. Superheroes have a multitude of means to accomplish their goals, as we used to here.
But several nerfs, to phase, stealth, personal force field, and others to ensure that you can't finish a mission without opening yourself to attack means that killing is the highest order activity. Making it so that the best way to get purple inventions is to murder thousands of minions instead of AVs, creates even more incentives to efficiently leveraging AoEs. Knockback would have problems even if the above wasn't true. But this just makes it worse. |
Say it with me, everyone: "I'm asking for a buff to super strength!"
Doesn't that sound reasonable?
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Which sets would need rebalancing? A PB's Luminous Blast? Suddenly a PB having no KB is going to make it more powerful than a SS/Fire Brute with xtra AoE from PPs? Everyone's going to start clamoring to play Energy Blasters over all other blast sets?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Unless I failed to notice it, nobody has addressed the fact that popular sets would have to be rebalanced if you suddenly made them so much better at murdering thousands of minions to get purple inventions, thus making their time so much more productive than comparable sets.
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Say it with me, everyone: "I'm asking for a buff to super strength!" Doesn't that sound reasonable? |
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You did, post 216.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Unless I failed to notice it,
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
nobody has addressed the fact that popular sets would have to be rebalanced if you suddenly made them so much better at murdering thousands of minions to get purple inventions, thus making their time so much more productive than comparable sets.
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SS/FA/MU, the ultimate farm build, does not need handclap in any shape or form to do what it does, this is because Handclap does not add damage.
It does not need handclap, becuase it has 4 AoE attacks that all deal damage.
High end builds will ignore a no damage power. High end builds have foot stomp on a 5-6s recharge before you even add the force feedback proc.
Low end builds are low end builds, I think they'd get use out of it - if they have to totally rebalance handclap for this, that would be better than it being an auto-skip.
Low end builds will not be more efficient at murdering thousands of minions by adding handclap - they will be safer, but not more efficient.
Also you're numbers for Handclap up thread were incorrect, it's a base 30s (not 20s) recharge with a Mag 2 stun (not Mag 3) and has Mag 5.19 KB.
You can continue to hold this position if you like, but on December 6th (most likely) Titan Weapons will be released and it will be tossing 3 x Mag 0.67 KB AoEs all over your argument.
Just in case you have missed it, it has a power easily on par with Foot Stomp (Same radius, similar damage, same target cap and I believe the same base rech) except unlike Foot Stomp it actually has a 1s cast time thanks to the restriction of needing momentum (I promise you, not an issue).
Then it will also have 2 x 120 Degree 9 foot range 5 target PBAoE Cones.
So not one, not two, make that 3 Powerhouse AoEs all with 0.67 KB.
With momentum, (I'm pretty sure) they all have cast times of 1.3s or lower (working from memory).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Say it with me, everyone: "I'm asking for a buff to super strength!"
Doesn't that sound reasonable? |
The only one you might even remotely have something with is Shockwave. (because it actually has great DPA)
I personally don't see many claws users, and I stopped playing mine because I don't like Shockwaves KB, Eviscerate is meh at best - which left me with Spin and the option to incur redraw using epic/patron AoEs.
I'd love to have Shockwave be more usable in an "any time its recharged" capacity without requiring the "hop, skip and a KB" dance you do now to keep your targets from scattering.
If that REALLY means the power must be rebalanced so be it.
But to be perfectly honest, I really don't think Shockwave would need to be rebalanced, nor the Claws set overall. In light of Titan Weapons, I'm convinced of it.
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Well since you speak about |"Comic book culture " you must also realize that in the comics Knocking a person back does a lot more damage than it does in this game . I doubt if any one would complain about a massive KB that killed off all the minions . in our game it just scatters them leaveing them to take up better positions and wipe out the team . you even admited to getting frustrated about careless KB. so Help us Null the Gull please or buff KB to do more damage
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Cranky rant coming, since you asked.
 Knockback is a critical part of superhero/villain culture. It's usually good for the team. Certain uses of it can be detrimental in some ways, sure, but certain uses of DPS are ALSO potentially detrimental (don't believe that? Ask any Kin who's seen the target of Transfusion killed before the animation finishes). Do you want to change the game to let people turn off damage, since it can (in theory) be detrimental? Games are about choosing how to play within the rules, not necessarily about lobbying to change the rules. Sure, pawns in chess would be "better" if they could move any distance and capture in every direction. Chess is old, why do we "still" have weak pawns? Do ranked chess players argue for stronger pawns? Why not? I don't want to turn off my knockback and, although I don't really have a right to want this, I don't want munchkins turning off their own knockback either, whether that's because they can't figure out how to play with knockback, or because they only want DPS and nothing else. The game's worked this way for seven years and comics have worked this way since they were first published. I'm not against change, but this is fundamental change for what are, IMHO, not-very-good reasons. I've been annoyed by people misusing area knockback too, believe it or not. (In my case, it's almost always Peacebringers, for some reason.) But the constant pressure to "turn off" or get rid of knockback vastly exceeds reasonable response, IMHO. For a slightly parallel example, look at all the complaints about slow-animating attacks like Energy Transfer "corpse blasting," i.e., taking so long to take effect that some other player defeats the target first. So what? Imagine that ET had hit quickly, defeating the target -- then the OTHER player's attack(s) would have been wasted by "corpse blasting." In BOTH cases, the target is dead and exp is earned, but there's still monumental grumbling about the illusion that MY OWN click should have done it instead of YOURS. Yes, it can be irritating, but again, not worth all the electrons spilled over it down the years. |
I'm curious, and this seems like a valid place to ask.
Dual Pistols can "turn off" their knockback with swap ammo. Do most stick to lethal ammo? Do teams yell at them?
I realize there are other factors (damage type/mez stacking), but it seems like it might be a small way to gauge reactions to the ability to not have knockback.