Is knockback underrated

As the subject suggests: is knockback underrated?

Were an outsider to peruse the forums, they'd emerge with the consensus that knockback is universally reviled. But is that truly representative? Are there any KB lovers?

I know I don't mind some strategically placed knockback. Kinetic melee's much maligned repulsing torrent is one of my favourite powers. Mitigation + AoE damage on an AoE-light set. Yet most guides recommend to skip - purely because of the KB.

As a general rule Knockback is bad; either because it is used badly or because it is designed badly.

The former is a result of people either not knowing or not caring how KB affects a team (doing things like opening on groups with Hand Clap, slotting Knockdown powers for Knockback, etc). The latter is the result of unpredictable knockback (Kheldians, for example) so that you basically can't play the powerset without some knockback and you can never be sure when it'll kick in.

In my personal experience, cone and single target knockback is good, if the player knowns how to use it (wallsmash, back in line or GET HIM AWAY FROM ME!!).

However, PBAoE based Knockback is a freaking nightmare, on any given set. Handclap, lightning clap, PB's one, you name it.. its bad. By default i always make sure a controller is in the team, just to lock them in -knockback, so they wont fly around the place.

I only wish they would give 'knockback reducers', so you could actualy slot you power to reduce knockback into a knockdown, specialy on the 'chance to' its a lotery game to gues when its gonna knockback or not.

Some people still see it as 'softcontrol' in a full party, i just see it as 'kicking mobs out of the controlled area of debuffs, taunts and mez'.

Its over valued if anything. I can not think of a single teaming situation in game where its better than existing controls, out right killing of the mobs or just tanking them. The problem is not the knockback itself but more so the scatter effect it causes. Its is almost always detrimetal to all of your allies powers that effect more than one mob. Furthermore not ever map in the game has the correct geometry to minimize the scatter effect the knockback powers have. Maybe some day the devs will try again for -kb enhancements and maybe then the powers will all be useable when teamed. Right now I dread teaming with energy blasters because of all the hell they causes. 99.999999999999% of all players do not know what the hell they are doing when it comes to knockback. I have yet to see a player aside from myself who knows how to position mobs with knockback so the scatter is either minimized or non-existent. I am not saying players who can use knockback effectively dont exists its just I have never seen them and I been playing since day 1.

Small disclaimer: If you are solo and want to use knockback then by all means go for it since at that point your not hurting your team because your solo.

When people complain about knockback, they're almost exclusively complaining about AREA knockback. You knock a single enemy away from my tanker, and I don't care; you broke it, you buy it, and I'll leave him for you, under the assumption you have things under control (you're a superhuman, after all).

I admit I have seen people whine about single-target knb in-game a few times. In each case, I didn't and still don't get it. I knocked someone out of a debuff patch with my Scrapper's Crane Kick once, killing him in the process, and the debuffing player complained "you knocked him out of my debuff." Go figure. Dude, he's dead.

Now it's true AREA knockback can be mishandled. The usual reason is the player cannot change playstyle between soloing and grouping, and just wants to hit the same buttons he or she is used to. But that's often teachable, so I'm patient.

There are other powers/effects that can be mishandled every bit as badly as knockback -- one of the worst is mindlessly immobilizing groups when they are widely spread out, instead of waiting for them to gather on the point person (usually a Tanker, or another AT in that role). So if you're using immobilize to stop knockback, wait a few moments for the foes to clump up first.

I don't believe that all knockback should be changed to knockup. I just think people need to use their heads with it.

A defender or controller with a knockback aura should never run in the middle of the group gathered around the tank. Same with someone using whirlwind.

If there is knockback attached to one of your damaging attacks...then I say use it, knockback be damned. However, you should always be aware of what attacks have knockback.

Agreed knockback is a dreadful pain when misused, and radial KB is rarely useful on teams (my WS is forever apologising for it) - but I wonder if that justifies the blanket criticism KB often receives.

And granted, there are many threads where the KB defenders emerge. But many, many more guides that advise on skipping KB powers wholesale.

As mentioned, I'm yet to see any guides recommend repulsing torrent, where I, for one, think it makes kinetic melee a great deal more powerful. Now, would KM be even better if repulsing torrent was just torrent? Maybe. But it's saved my regenerating butt more than once when soloing or in small teams.

Plus, there's the undeniable satisfaction of finishing some petulant mob and knocking it to its doom off a tall ledge.

I have two problems with AoE KB:

1) The first is when it has a chance of occurring. When used against large group of enemies, an AoE with 60% chance of KB is going to launch some, and not others, leaving groups scattered in two different places. This hinders further AoEs from being as effective as they could be until the groups merge back up again. I'd much prefer if AoE KB effects like this were turned into 60% chance to happen against every mob or none. Not like the current implementation where each mob gets checked individually.

2) The second is PBAoE Knockback effects. As part of a set where the focus isn't on melee damage, this isn't too bad. However, if the set is melee based (Super Strength, Electric Melee), then doing radial KB away from you can cause 360-degree scatter, which isn't at all efficient.

I decided to embrace the wonderful Chaos that is Knockback.

I have come to absolutely love it and I only see people complain because the groups aren't in neat little packages with ribbons on them waiting for the slaughter.

Tanks can't hold aggro? Move your large behind and keep moving.

Can't get AoE on all of them? Tough you have single attacks too!

Can't heal/buff/debuff all of them? Tough that's why you have teammates let them help too.

I LOVE Knockback and have in the past ran teams that REQUIRED the use of knockback powers - like insisting on Handclap on the tank. Yes, and add to the wonderful awesome Chaos by fighting Coucil as they have strong Knockback Mojo of their own!

As has been mentioned: Intelligent KB= Good; Stupid KB = Bad.


Using Tornado in an 8 person group with no form of -KB on the enemies is bad.

Using GALE every second it is up will result in a strongly worded letter of my disapproval.

Constantly using me to target your enemies on an energy Blaster is bad. I will literally target the worst possible thing in the spawn and just stare at it while it runs over to munch on your face if you do this to me. I will slip the tank twenty dollars not to save you.

When your stupid demon horde keeps pushing me out of the way so it can do it's piddly group focused damage. Oh, that last one isn't KB? IT MIGHT AS WELL BE! D=<


That said, I'm usually okay with a little KB. It's not a big deal for me to have to spend half a second running up to whatever I was fighting and continue stabbing it. It's when it happens over and over and over and over again and I have to spend the entire battle chasing rag-dolls around that I begin to get... slightly angry.

Everyone loves strategic use of knockback. Unfortunately it is very rare. For knockback heavy sets it likely involves having hover which is a character limitation. For a melee set, what counts as strategic is even more restrained.

If someone is writing a guide on how to build and play a set and they tell the readers of the guide not to take a power because of knockback, the number of good players they will potentially mislead is tiny compared to the good they will do by stopping the general masses for screwing around with something they don't know how to use.

In general I like knockback, but it should be used properly. In particular, using AoE KB as an opening move is frequently counterproductive if there are any melee characters, or blasters with AoE attacks, or defenders with AoE debuffs, and so on. It's very annoying when melee characters (most often a PB) start out by scattering every mob in the room to the four corners. Solo, that's probably a fine tactic. But you have to adjust your play to accommodate your team, especially if you want to maximize efficiency.

That said, KB is an absolute staple of the comics and action movie genres. Every superhero in the comics, no matter how super he is, gets knocked back. From Superman on down, whenever someone hits them hard or shoots them with a big gun, they all go flying. This adds a great deal of dynamism to the genre and to the game.

A game isn't the same as a comic book or movie to be sure. But knockback is here to stay. Everyone should learn to use it correctly, but everyone should also stop pitching hissy fits if there's a stray bit of knockback now and then.

I hate knockback with the fire of a thousand people with gonorrhea.

You see the game on a whole is dead easy.

With characters IO'd to the gills and with Lore Pets, powers and so on.

Then you take a large helping of Chaos and feed it into the smooth running herd and slaughter machine and you get a more dynamic and fun experience. Ever see an Elite Boss get thrown into the air, cart wheel and get destroyed before he can hit the ground?

If the answer is no - you have not experienced the fun that can be had by embracing Chaos.

If you like life in neat orderly chunks, perhaps it is time to find how the dark side lives - Knock something back today and smile.

Yeah try getting a Mind controller to lift when you shout PULL! and Knockback stuff all the way across rooms.

I don't think its underrated, I think that CoH's gameplay has devolved from its original taticalish designs to such a meleer, AOE, Buff/debuff love fest that certain powers moves counter to the game that the players play verses the way it was originally meant to be played.

Look at how little the impact that control as a whole has and keeps having in later designs, its not just knockback but control effects on a whole which are diminished and move counter to the ways that player play the game while teaming. Even in this very thread people were talking about improper use of immobilization, other threads talk about improper use of phase powers, and this one was about knockback being underrated/hated when used "improperly".

Players like Buff/debuff effects because they are additive to every style of gameplay. They only make the whatever character that the character is using better, they make whatever foes they are fighting worse. The only exceptions might be stealth effects and +speed effects. (note that players hate debuff effects when used against them as it changes the rules in how the game works)

Most everyone likes control when they are in control of it and dislikes control when someone else has control of it. 'You' see the right way to use these powers and everyone that moves counter to how 'you' use these powers is using them wrong. ((you as a general you, not any specific person in this thread)) You know how to use knockback, that player doesn't. You know how to use an aoe immob, that other player doesn't have a clue and is messing everything up. Ironically control is just as much about controlling how someone else plays the game as it is about controlling the mobs themselves.

Players hate being told how to play the game in a specific way, especially when that way is counter to their current playstyle.. this is what control powers ultimately do. They tell you how the game is going to be played regardless of how you play the game. You phase out a group.. no we're not fighting them at the moment. You teleport a group.. we're fighting over there. You scatter a group.. no AOE goodness for you. You immob a scattered group.. single target powers HO. You disorient a group.. look at those drunk mobs go.. and so on. Players dislike loss of control and things not behaving the way that they typically do.

I like knockback a lot when I'm soloing and I have several characters who use it as a major mitigation tool when they solo. That being said it's less useful in a group, it doesn't bother me but it's also not something that I find essential.

Here's what I don't get ...

We used to get devs telling us that distance is damage mitigation ...

We had strong hints from Statesman and Geko that distance by any means was unreservedly good ...

But some controller AoE immobs grant mobs KB protection -- in one case, even when the set has an AoE KB power (fire).

It's also odd that players can grant mobs AoE KB protection while, pre-Clarion, they couldn't grant AoE KB protection to other players.

The only thing I can wrap my head around is that they devs were making a distinction that they didn't bother to communicate to players: KB is always good if you're talking about mitigation; KB is (possibly) bad if you're already able to keep mobs at range AND layer on further debuffs and controls.

Knock back is underrated among the player base. Knock back is overrated by the developers, at least historically.

Truthfully, you need to evaluate KB on a power-by-power, situation-by-situation basis to appreciate how good or how bad it can be, but leaving that aside, from a personal, selfish standpoint, I think there are few mechanics in this or any other game that scream super-hero-y to me as much as knockback, the farther the better.

For a long time, I've hoped that we could get some sort of extra-KB-only-on-the-kill-shot option to satisfy that aesthetic preference, but alas it's likely not to be. I'm not even sure it's possible to implement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build