Is knockback underrated
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-10-24 02:11 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Here's the scenario as you presented it Zombie Man:|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Yes. You did change the scenario -- to one with a stronger character.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
On the ITF, before Incarnates made them trivial, Torrent from a Dark Defender would KB the entire spawn, including Bosses (in the same direction) giving everyone two free shots. Thus, no need for anyone to take the Alpha, and also preventing the Cimmies from using their team buffs. This means follow up controls and debuffs actually worked on them.
Otherwise, the Tanker would jump in, all the Cimmies would fire off their team buffs, and then they'd be hard to hit and nearly impossible to mez. Also, during the Imperious fight, it pushes the adds away from the healing Nictus so they can be killed. The same tactic does wonders for +4 Praetorians. On a Lambda run, where we're focused just on destroying the objects, spamming Torrent keeps everyone alive. On a Keyes, it knocks the IDF from the reactor leaving the terminals to be powered up. |
Here's what I said:
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
When a KB heavy team beats my 16 min. pre-Incarnate time on an ITF, then we'll talk about it being the best tool. The best tool is and always has been killing things quickly and efficiently. And KB is the enemy of quick and efficient kills.
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No change of the scenario. Exploiting the holes in the scenario you posited yes. But then, I am a jerk.
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You are right, it was my bad. Sorry about that. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Do you people just not read whole posts?
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And what do you mean by 'YOU PEOPLE?!" Hmmmmmm.
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This is a slightly different animal. Technically, the primary purpose of an AoE immob IS to prevent the mobs from moving. If the team doesn't need that, you shouldn't do it. But it's just as often true that the team doesn't need the knockdown mitigation from that Ice Patch and the controller SHOULD go ahead and immob precisely to allow KB users (whose KB as damage mitigation is also not needed) to just go nuts with their Knockback AoEs.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Another example of an effect that can have a downside is AoE Immobs... they can prevent enemies from moving where they need to when used poorly, and many contain a -KB component which renders powers like [Ice Patch]'s KD useless.
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And while it is true a controller also derives containment and more damage from the AoE immob, they are usually just as interested as anyone in immobilizing the mobs as closely together as possible. It means more damage for the team AND for them usually. The same is not true of ordinary attack powers with a secondary KB effect. If you've got an attack ready to use and you're not using it because of the potential for unwanted KB, you're losing its DPS potential as compared to someone who can just fireball away.
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| Other examples would be Intangibility powers and Cage powers. Both can be used to good effect... but they can also be used exceedingly poorly. Same goes for KB. |
This of course all assumes you even care about performance. If you don't, then by all means knock everything all over the place.
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Uhhhh ...|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
On the ITF, in the final mission, many of the spawns are on bridges or otherwise not near corners. Where is the tank supposed to move them.
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Stacked Bonfires are really, really entertaining on the final AV. You blow the incoming spawns away and also have a chance to knock down whatshisface. Since Romans are, by and large, melee toons, their need to rush up and punch you in the face makes them easy fodder for, say, RoF (its AoE more or less covers the max distance they get KBed) launched by my fire dom.
Ditto for the towers on the STF.
I'm no great fan of KB, but there are places where it's really quite impressive.
I don't mind knockback when the person using it isn't a complete idiot.
I have a couple rules regarding KB users on my teams:
1) If you hit a mob with a ST KB, you better keep hitting it until it's dead. Do NOT KB a single enemy and switch targets to KB another single enemy. You KB something, make sure it's dead before you move on so we don't have half dead mobs scattered all over the place.
2) If you see my Dark Armor character with low health in the middle of a spawn, DO NOT hit the spawn with an AoE KB. I can't even count the number of times someone has used Energy Torrent on the spawn surrounding me leaving me with no targets for Dark Regeneration, which I just fired. Then they stand up and riddle me with bullets. I can forgive it if the person is genuinely ignorant of how my power works, but if they keep doing it repeatedly after I've explained why it's bad, they get booted.
Energy blasters are usually the worst offenders, but I've had horrible experiences with Fire Controllers who think Bonfire is the greatest power in the history of ever. I mean, really, do you HAVE to drop that power the second the tank reaches the spawn?
I've had a handful of great experiences with Energy blasters who hover on the outskirts of the battle knocking things toward the tank. Those players are always welcome on my teams.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I don't think "NEVER" is quite accurate, in that my energy blaster can solo on a much higher difficulty than any of my others, due to keeping things farther away using just such powers. If the intended context is "performance on a steamrolling team", then "NEVER" might be accurate, though. Steamrolling teams don't have a problem with my KB these days, because either I'm on a stormie that'll just hold off on the KB powers if not needed or I'm on my energy blaster who finds steamrolling boring and will go off and solo instead.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Percentage chance KBs, especially in AoE form, are the devil. They are NEVER better than KDs.
This of course all assumes you even care about performance. If you don't, then by all means knock everything all over the place. |
I've also never quit a team because of badly used KB, but I've politely moved on at the end of a mission many times because some immob-happy controller keeps opening the fight with an aoe immob to lock the mobs in place all spread out so it takes me two or three times as long to take them out. I especially dislike this on a WP or Inv tank, where adjacent mobs buff my defenses. KB gets demonized on the forums far more than immob ever does, though.
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If everyone who had KB was good about using it I wouldn't mind it.
Some people enjoy KB, that's fine. I can see the fun appeal of it, even if I don't share it. But I'm with EvilGeko on this one, KB is never the best tool.
It can be a good tool. It can be a useful tool. However, any time a team needs or would benefit at all from KB, they'd benefit more from some other form of mitigation.
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I think a lot of people believe I 'hate' knockback. I do not. I actually love KB. I think it's very fun and a core part of a superhero game. What I do hate is that encounter design and the reward system works to make KB a tool that should only be used sparingly, if ever.
I've been here since the beginning and I've seen the devs remove strategy after strategy for dealing with problems other than "KILL THEM!" As another example, I love stealth. I think it's a very useful tool and darn fun. But, the devs have worked tirelessly to ensure that stealth's benefits are lessened.
Likewise, while Zombie thinks I'm giving him grief over his example out of KB antipathy, he's wrong. I don't think the use of KB in his example was wrong or problematic or even not useful. I'm just lamenting a game that makes that clearly a sub-standard strategy to just building a godmode team and killing everything in seconds. I like doing that sometimes, but AoE death teams gets boring too.
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I think that's because AoE immobilizes are much more limited than KB effects. Really only two ATs have AoE immobilizes as primary powers and even then not all combinations do.
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Originally Posted by Gorgar
KB gets demonized on the forums far more than immob ever does, though.
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I can't remember ever being able to KB any of the Named AVs you just listed and once again smart play is the watch word. In an open area map an energy blaster need only hover over the spawn far enough out of mob melee range to maximize AoE using hover or a raptor pack. On indoor maps (with the afore mentioned ROOM) this is not usually an option and requires the melee toons to use smart play or suffer for their own ignorance.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The center of the room is a nice clump. To give you an example. On a Lambda trial, are you suggesting that the tank should waste the time trying to move Marauder to one of the corners? Because if you move him too close to that open door, he might leave the courtyard and the trial fails. So it's best to fight him where he stands.
I can give you examples from nearly every TF and/or trial. Take the STF since its the WST. Where the heck do you expect the tank to move Arbiter Sands and his spawn? On the ITF, in the final mission, many of the spawns are on bridges or otherwise not near corners. Where is the tank supposed to move them. On the LGTF, where exactly should we be pulling Hro'Dotz to? Right by where Honoree spawns? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. On the KHTF, Mary is already hard to control. Where is this mythical corner I should pull her too, and why would she stay there. I could do this all day!  |
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You do realize that those AVs have a spawn of mobs around them? If you move the AV, you move the spawn.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I can't remember ever being able to KB any of the Named AVs you just listed and once again smart play is the watch word. In an open area map an energy blaster need only hover over the spawn far enough out of mob melee range to maximize AoE using hover or a raptor pack. On indoor maps (with the afore mentioned ROOM) this is not usually an option and requires the melee toons to use smart play or suffer for their own ignorance.
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I agree with you that the Energy Blaster hovering above the spawn mitigates the KB sufficiently. However, that contradicts your point that the melee player need move the spawn to a corner. As I pointed out and you seem to acknowledge, that is not always possible.
It would not be any evidence of ignorance on the part of the melee player not to move the spawn to a corner because none would be readily available.
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Oh and another thing:
DARN YOU ALL!!! I'M MAKING ANOTHER ALT BECAUSE OF YOU LOT!! 
Energy/Devices. Darn concept toons. 
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And which Blaster of yours does as much knock-DOWN as Energy Blast's knock-BACK such that you would even know it's the knockback distance (vs. just knocking them down) that's saving your Energy Blaster's bacon? I'm not saying KB isn't providing damage mitigation. It does. But I think KD is very nearly the same mitigation value while vastly superior at keeping mobs together and thus enhancing all your other attacks.|
Originally Posted by Gorgar
I don't think "NEVER" is quite accurate, in that my energy blaster can solo on a much higher difficulty than any of my others, due to keeping things farther away using just such powers.
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Solo this is less of a big deal. On a team, keeping the mobs together is just better for everybody. Either way though I still stand by the statement that knockdown as an unreliable side-effect is better than knockback as an unreliable side-effect. Powers that knockback reliably by design are a whole different story. There the problem, if there is one, IS with the player and not the power. But there is no skill to making unrealiable AoE knockback a positive. There is only mitigating the potential negative.... something you don't have to do with powers that don't have unreliable KB side-effects.
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| If the intended context is "performance on a steamrolling team", then "NEVER" might be accurate, though. |
I'm in fact quite happy with AVERAGE performance. I not only play Stalkers most of the time, but I play them on random PuGs. Average is just peachy with me.
Excessive random AoE KB is BELOW average, in my experience. It makes the average team WORSE than average.
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Well, then, you didn't read my post carefully.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I read your post carefully. My response was targeted towards the scenario you posited. If you meant, "Pre-Incarnate, non-heavy IO using teams" I might have agreed with you and moved on.
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I posited a situation of a team that couldn't steamroll. I mentioned pre-Incarnate because what Incarnate team can't steamroll a ITF. But you made the team into a suped-up IO team that can steamroll. You changed the situation to avoid the case where KB would be the best tool for a team that couldn't steamroll *in that situation* with the powers they had at hand.
I remember when the ITF first came out *and teams regularly wiped*. I don't care whether that's with IO teams or non-IO teams. They regularly wiped... except when I Torrented the mob first. At that time there were Tankers that couldn't handle all the -Def. Or there were no Tankers at all on the team. The mezzers couldn't hold the spawn.
When a spawn was knocked back with Torrent as the alpha, the Cims' team buffers didn't get off their team buffs. They didn't scatter any more than when they began because they all moved in tandem with each other -- in fact, in the tunnels, Torrent almost always clumped them closer together. And while they were being knocked back, everyone got two free shots at them.
In that situation, KB was the best tool... *at hand*.
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Zombie that's not what you said. This is what you said verbatim:|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, then, you didn't read my post carefully.
I posited a situation of a team that couldn't steamroll. I mentioned pre-Incarnate because what Incarnate team can't steamroll a ITF. But you made the team into a suped-up IO team that can steamroll. You changed the situation to avoid the case where KB would be the best tool for a team that couldn't steamroll *in that situation* with the powers they had at hand. |
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
On the ITF, before Incarnates made them trivial, Torrent from a Dark Defender would KB the entire spawn, including Bosses (in the same direction) giving everyone two free shots. Thus, no need for anyone to take the Alpha, and also preventing the Cimmies from using their team buffs. This means follow up controls and debuffs actually worked on them.
Otherwise, the Tanker would jump in, all the Cimmies would fire off their team buffs, and then they'd be hard to hit and nearly impossible to mez. Also, during the Imperious fight, it pushes the adds away from the healing Nictus so they can be killed. The same tactic does wonders for +4 Praetorians. On a Lambda run, where we're focused just on destroying the objects, spamming Torrent keeps everyone alive. On a Keyes, it knocks the IDF from the reactor leaving the terminals to be powered up. |
Now YOU HAVE CHANGED THE SCENARIO. In this way:
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I remember when the ITF first came out *and teams regularly wiped*. I don't care whether that's with IO teams or non-IO teams. They regularly wiped... except when I Torrented the mob first. At that time there were Tankers that couldn't handle all the -Def. Or there were no Tankers at all on the team. The mezzers couldn't hold the spawn.
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I do indeed remember that. I was also specific in my original post about it being a room (which I define as at least 2 walls and a ceiling) and not an open map.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You do realize that those AVs have a spawn of mobs around them? If you move the AV, you move the spawn.
I agree with you that the Energy Blaster hovering above the spawn mitigates the KB sufficiently. However, that contradicts your point that the melee player need move the spawn to a corner. As I pointed out and you seem to acknowledge, that is not always possible. It would not be any evidence of ignorance on the part of the melee player not to move the spawn to a corner because none would be readily available. |
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None, of course! (There aren't any blaster sets that do as much KD as Energy does KB.) I can tell by the fact that even the mobs that prefer ranged attacks (Rikti Mentalists, etc) got blasted so far back that they had to run up just to use their ranged attacks on me, by which point I'll generally knock them back again. Depending on how much of a threat they are, and how long their range is, and what's recharged at the time, I'll hit them with a reliable KB or use unreliable ones until one works, then deal with the next most important threat. The unreliable KB powers do enough KB that with sufficient recharge I can keep the mobs mostly at bay. What slips through deals with Bonfire, and if it gets through *that*, it gets Power Thrusted back where it belongs.|
Originally Posted by Zem
And which Blaster of yours does as much knock-DOWN as Energy Blast's knock-BACK such that you would even know it's the knockback distance (vs. just knocking them down) that's saving your Energy Blaster's bacon? I'm not saying KB isn't providing damage mitigation. It does. But I think KD is very nearly the same mitigation value while vastly superior at keeping mobs together and thus enhancing all your other attacks.
Solo this is less of a big deal. On a team, keeping the mobs together is just better for everybody. Either way though I still stand by the statement that knockdown as an unreliable side-effect is better than knockback as an unreliable side-effect. Powers that knockback reliably by design are a whole different story. There the problem, if there is one, IS with the player and not the power. But there is no skill to making unrealiable AoE knockback a positive. There is only mitigating the potential negative.... something you don't have to do with powers that don't have unreliable KB side-effects. |
What makes this work particularly well is Boost Range on auto, the range bonus from the cardiac alpha, as well as some dam/range HOs in the AoEs. This lets me solo the blaster at +4/x1-3. If all the powers did reliable KB, I'd be able to do better.
But as you say, there's no skill to getting use out of unreliable AoE KB.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I decided to embrace the wonderful Chaos that is Knockback.
I have come to absolutely love it and I only see people complain because the groups aren't in neat little packages with ribbons on them waiting for the slaughter. Tanks can't hold aggro? Move your large behind and keep moving. Can't get AoE on all of them? Tough you have single attacks too! Can't heal/buff/debuff all of them? Tough that's why you have teammates let them help too. I LOVE Knockback and have in the past ran teams that REQUIRED the use of knockback powers - like insisting on Handclap on the tank. Yes, and add to the wonderful awesome Chaos by fighting Coucil as they have strong Knockback Mojo of their own! |
As long as you realize that you are significantly slowing your team down by doing this. You would not be welcome on any of my trial or task force runs with this kind of attitude.
Maybe it's okay for you to take say, 30 minutes to do an Imperious Task Force, but I'd rather keep them around the 15-17 minute mark, where they belong. That means lots of AOE, and no chasing enemies down who are being knocked all over the place.
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I'm just curious, but what factors are used to determine exactly how long a given Task Force should take to complete?
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Originally Posted by Feather_Of_Sun
Maybe it's okay for you to take say, 30 minutes to do an Imperious Task Force, but I'd rather keep them around the 15-17 minute mark, where they belong.
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KB is great. Only time I have seen KB go wrong on a team is when the team is so slow or bad that i could solo the mission faster. otherwise, even if every spawn is blown to the corners of the room, everyone just you know, pushes WSAD and kicks butt and does their thing. The mitigation from aoe KB is underrated. I have never noticed a change in kill speed from KB, unless like I said the team is just freegin slow. Normally those teams are the type that are hung up on some kind of one trick pony, or adamant in the "correct procedure" for attacking a spawn. KB on a team makes the immersion all the better.
Given this, there are a couple powers that are just plain annoying- hand clap for one. not that it is bad for a team really, it can be used to fling foes off of squishy team mates if all else fails, but it does not fit in the set it is in at all. if the secondary effect was a mag 2 hold instead of a stun it might get more love as then the foes would stand up and do nothing for a while. As is they get up, stagger for a second and then resume.
i am also at wits end with the KB on energy blast. not as a team mate, but as the player using it. the stupid "chance for" totally anihilates its usefulness as dependable mitigation on a blaster. When you really needs it or hope for it, it doesnt happen. when it doesnt matter, the guys go flying. I wish they would change it to 100% on a few more of the powers.
So yeah, i am in the KB is awsome group.
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I love my energy/energy blaster....absolutely. He's awesome.
However, there's a difference between using knockback effective and using it watonly.
When used correctly it provides a lot of mitigation for a team, when used recklessly or carelessly it at least annoys the team and lengthens anything the team is doing. At worst it kills teammates and wastes important debuffs, heals, and buffs.
I've always found using KB powers towards walls effective, except in caves. In caves you have a high probability of trapping mobs inside the walls and that just frustrates people.
I also avoid knocking mobs toward declines as they'll slide for a long distance. This frustrates tanks and other melee a lot.
The most effective use of KB powers for me has been in conjuction with hover. If I hover over the mobs when using KB powers they tend to simply knock them down, which is much less of an issue for a team.
I always use KB powers to coral mobs toward a tank or into an AOE. It's great for throwing runners back at a team or to throw mobs away from some of the squisher teammates.
If you make an effort to use KB powers in a mindful way then they can be some of the most useful and fun powers in the game. Not caring where or how you throw mobs around makes those powers quite annoying and rather useless on a team.
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Merits per minute formula
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
I'm just curious, but what factors are used to determine exactly how long a given Task Force should take to complete?
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I couldn't even tell you how many times my Willpower or Dark Armor characters have been killed because a careless player got KB happy while I was in the middle of a mob. |
Originally Posted by Gospel_NA
When used correctly it provides a lot of mitigation for a team, when used recklessly or carelessly it at least annoys the team and lengthens anything the team is doing. At worst it kills teammates and wastes important debuffs, heals, and buffs.
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Before you start getting your defense built up on a Willpower, there are times when your regen from RttC will barely be keeping up with the incoming damage. When those enemy mobs are removed from it's radius and they stand up and start shooting you without fueling your regen as well...well, it gets ugly.
And Dark Armor's Dark Regeneration has a lag between when you trigger the power and actually get the heal. If things are knocked away from you at the wrong time you could waste over 20 endurance and get squat from it because there were no targets in range by the time it went to trigger the heal.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yet somehow, it's fine if someone ruins the fun of his seven other teammates by knockbacking stuff all over the place, just so he can feel awesome.| I do think it generally gets a raw deal, particularly for the self-important aoe min-maxers looking to trash 16 mobs at once that come here to complain about it -- their voices ring the loudest and mostly your hear the "What" ("knockback sucks") rather than the "Why" ("because KB'ers rob me of the limelight of being uber in my own eyes") |
Being purposefully inefficient is a childish attitude. Trying to claim the moral high ground for doing that is being a hipster. Want to know the problem being such a special and unique snowflake that isn't part of the sheeple? Well, us unwashed masses are, kind of, the majority. As that's what it means and all.
So while you might highfive your other hipsters friends (which there is thankfully no shortage of on the boards) and claim you're being oppressed by The Man, nobody else buys it, or care ; as here you're not against some faceless corporation or government, but other players.
I can give you examples from nearly every TF and/or trial. Take the STF since its the WST. Where the heck do you expect the tank to move Arbiter Sands and his spawn?
On the ITF, in the final mission, many of the spawns are on bridges or otherwise not near corners. Where is the tank supposed to move them.
On the LGTF, where exactly should we be pulling Hro'Dotz to? Right by where Honoree spawns? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
On the KHTF, Mary is already hard to control. Where is this mythical corner I should pull her too, and why would she stay there.
I could do this all day!
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