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I'll play along.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Personally, I think it's a stupid change.
I also think that your characterizing it as "punishment" is quite moronic. |
On what grounds are you disputing it being a punishment?
The only potential argument could be the semantics involved in whether or not not issuing a rightfully earned reward is the same as taking it after it has been rewarded.
I don't know how it works in whatever country you are from but when I get a fine, that money comes from my wages automatically each week until it has been paid. The Emp merit fine too is coming from my wages automatically until it is paid. The only difference is the fact that I am never able to pay that debt. So I guess you are right, the term "punishment" isn't quite extreme enough by today's standards.
I guess that last statement also depends on whether or not you consider a government issued fine a punishment or not but I don't think I am over-crediting your intelligence too much by assuming you do.
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Belated congratulations.
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Originally Posted by Rubberlad
No, I'm male. My husband and I were legally married in an enlightened state in 2008, but we now reside in a license-friendly state that is working on becoming enlightened.
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Could you please point me to the section of the patch notes where the devs announced that they will be fining you Emp merits for some reason, because otherwise that analogy is moronic.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
I don't know how it works in whatever country you are from but when I get a fine, that money comes from my wages automatically each week until it has been paid. The Emp merit fine too is coming from my wages automatically until it is paid. The only difference is the fact that I am never able to pay that debt. So I guess you are right, the term "punishment" isn't quite extreme enough by today's standards.
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No...completely missing the point there.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Oh then in other words the complaint is that they are giving you something to spend 15 Emp Merits on?
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The new Vorpal Judgement is no better or worse than other Judgements and would be useful for a Mystical Martial Arts type character...yet it's locked behind the 15 emp merit gate for no other reason than they upped and decided it should be.
You have to spend 15 Emp Merits per character for each and every new Incarnate ability they're introducing in the next Issue (well 0.5 Issue).
That's just it, it is an Emp Merit sink of the most obvious kind and they added loads to the Lore slot without asking for them to be unlocked with Emp Merits...so why have these new ones sudden got the Emp merit unlock cost?
It just strikes me as weird that THESE powers require an Emp merit unlock when nothing before it has, they are not more powerful than any of the freely available abilites, the Alpha slot ones are actually worse than the freely available ones and yet they have this bizaare unlocking thing required.
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My bad, I assumed people would have read the notes before commenting. Here you go:|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Could you please point me to the section of the patch notes where the devs announced that they will be fining you Emp merits for some reason, because otherwise that analogy is moronic.
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Incarnate Rewards * Behavioral Adjustment Facility will no longer award Empyrean merits to players who have earned their Lore slot. o That character will thereafter receive 2 Astral Merits for the first daily completion, and 1 Astral in subsequent runs. * Lambda Sector will no longer award Empyrean merits to players who have earned their Destiny slot. o That character will thereafter receive 2 Astral Merits for the first daily completion, and 1 Astral in subsequent runs |
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That's a silly way to look at it. Do you also get fined reward merits when you run the Nictus Insurrection in flashback? Do you get fined influence when you fight rikti monkeys in AE?|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
After the patch, just like a fine for a traffic violation or whatever, the currency I would normally be earning is being taken from me before I get access to it.
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I think the proposed change is horrifically bad idea, but calling it a threat, punishment, or fine is absurd. You used the phrase "rightfully earned reward" a few posts up, but the entire point of the change appears to be that (the devs think that) an emp merit ISN'T a rightfully earned reward for those trials once you have all your incarnate slots.
I swear topic titles in this subforum are getting more and more stupid.
You don't get incarnate access at all on a premium account. Case closed.
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Congrats!|
Originally Posted by Rubberlad
No, I'm male. My husband and I were legally married in an enlightened state in 2008, but we now reside in a license-friendly state that is working on becoming enlightened.
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I get asked similar questions whenever I mention my boyfriend... who also plays this game.
I am amused.
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Actually you have it. The new powers are an EMerit sink. |
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
No...completely missing the point there.
The new Vorpal Judgement is no better or worse than other Judgements and would be useful for a Mystical Martial Arts type character...yet it's locked behind the 15 emp merit gate for no other reason than they upped and decided it should be. You have to spend 15 Emp Merits per character for each and every new Incarnate ability they're introducing in the next Issue (well 0.5 Issue). That's just it, it is an Emp Merit sink of the most obvious kind and they added loads to the Lore slot without asking for them to be unlocked with Emp Merits...so why have these new ones sudden got the Emp merit unlock cost? It just strikes me as weird that THESE powers require an Emp merit unlock when nothing before it has, they are not more powerful than any of the freely available abilites, the Alpha slot ones are actually worse than the freely available ones and yet they have this bizaare unlocking thing required. |
Why shouldn't they have new incarnate powers cost Emerits?
As far as I can tell there really is no good reason for not charging EMerits for these. Add in that they aren't spectacular must have powers then it even makes more sense for them to be something to spend the EMerits on.
Now the price they have them set at may be to high and it should be 10, 8, or 5 EMerits for them but the basic concept is sound.
I get that people think because previous powers didn't cost EMerits all new and future powers shouldn't cost anything. But why must that be true?
And isn't it better for it to be odd quirky special use powers that cost something than must have powers?
Again I'm not seeing a major crisis or issue here. I do think that there is more than a little wiggle room to complain that they have the price a bit high and that could be a good cause. But I'm not seeing any real valid cause in pushing that they shouldn't cost EMerits. Not when the best argument is that previous Incarnate Powers didn't cost any.
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Originally Posted by Jasra
limit hoarders,
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
more of the hoarders
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
discourage any hoarders.
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And then they give us TPN, which, as it's now, NEVER downgrades all the way to Astrals. Hoarders aren't in any way, shape or form limited by all these changes. It would be easier than ever to hoard Emps for a hardcore raider than ever if this goes live as it is.
I don't believe devs are so stupid as to not to see this, so I think that whatever the reasoning behind those changes, hoarding as such plays no part in it.
Most probably, they're just disappointed no one plays their new shiny trials and are trying to fix it with rather extreme stick-and-carrot.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree then, since it just makes no sense to me that THESE particular Incarnate powers are worth a 15 emp merit unlock, it also is annoying for concept. Why should your martial artist be forced to pay a 15 Emp merit unlock to get a Judgement which matches their primary while the Elec/Elec brute pays nothing for one that matches theirs?
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Actually you have it. The new powers are an EMerit sink.
Why shouldn't they have new incarnate powers cost Emerits? As far as I can tell there really is no good reason for not charging EMerits for these. Add in that they aren't spectacular must have powers then it even makes more sense for them to be something to spend the EMerits on. Now the price they have them set at may be to high and it should be 10, 8, or 5 EMerits for them but the basic concept is sound. I get that people think because previous powers didn't cost EMerits all new and future powers shouldn't cost anything. But why must that be true? And isn't it better for it to be odd quirky special use powers that cost something than must have powers? Again I'm not seeing a major crisis or issue here. I do think that there is more than a little wiggle room to complain that they have the price a bit high and that could be a good cause. But I'm not seeing any real valid cause in pushing that they shouldn't cost EMerits. Not when the best argument is that previous Incarnate Powers didn't cost any. |
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The argument that the new powers are "quirkly special use powers" as opposed to "must-have powers" is unsound. Both of those qualifiers are a matter of opinion, as someone might view the new Hold Alpha as a must-have power for their Ice character (as an example).
I understand the devs' desires to keep these powers from being achieved on day 1 by those who have stockpiled Incarnate Salvage/Merits. That said, I ask that they look at this from the point of view of a brand new Incarnate character, a character who (perhaps) is a teleporter, and would therefore very much benefit conceptually from the new Judgement and Destiny powers. Is it fair that that brand new Incarnate has to spend his first 30 Empyrean Merits just gaining access to his desired Incarnate tree, when their Electric Blast buddy has access to Ion simply by unlocking the Judgement slot?
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That makes no sense at all, unless they were planning to retroactively remove all the Emp merits you'd earned on BAF/Lamda since the trials started or you didn't know about the Emp merits being removed until after you'd completed the trial (and somehow had terrible short term memory so kept doing it).|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
My bad, I assumed people would have read the notes before commenting. Here you go:
After the patch, just like a fine for a traffic violation or whatever, the currency I would normally be earning is being taken from me before I get access to it. |
I can't even think of a suitable analogy for what you're suggesting because it makes so little sense. They can't fine you something you haven't earned in the first place, they can stop you earning it, but that's not the same thing at all. And they're not even stopping you from earning them, they're just changing the requirements.
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Hmm.|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
They're nerfing AE because they hate farmers, I love farming so I'm leaving
They're nerfing BAF/Lambda to make us run the newer trials, I only run BAF/Lambda so I'm leaving They're gating the new incarnate powers behind 15 E-Merits each, which is really stupid so I'm leaving |
Let's see. I don't use AE, I don't do trials, and I'm not bothering with the Incarnate system. I guess my options are basically to:
a) Jump on the Indignation Bandwagon anyway in a show of solidarity; or
b) Not give a damn, with the understanding that I am slightly risking a Reverend Niemöller Moment later on.
I think I'm going to have to run the risk and go with b) here.
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There's positive punishment (the introduction of an aversive stimulus as a result of behavior, with the intent of reducing that behavior) and negative punishment (the removal of a desirable stimulus following completion of a behavior, with the intent of reducing that behavior). People generally only think of the first as "punishment," but modification of outcomes to reduce the likelihood of behavior is, from a behaviorist perspective, all punishment.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
I would like to know in what way the emp merit change can be seen as an encouragement. It takes something that people want and removes it while replacing it with nothing. All my college psychology may be a bit rusty, but I don't recall any discussion of encouragement that included removal of rewards.
Come up with some better word than "punishment" if you like, because I don't particularly think that one fits either, but "encouragement" is the totally wrong word. |
That being said, I'm still not totally convinced that this qualifies as negative punishment, since it's not removing rewards because you completed the trial. It's removing rewards that were previously associated with completing the trial, which is a separate issue and something I think behaviorists would have to go babbling about "higher-order reinforcers" and "higher-order punishers" to explain.
I care less about the changes to reward structures, and more about the changes to communication with the players. There's a reason the Ustream chat summaries spend so much time joking about tangents and so little time conveying new information, and we get lamentably little in the way of "Why?" information as lots of the changes we're seeing come through. People left to their own devices will make all sorts of attributions for why decisions have been made, and not all of those attributions will be reasonable or rational.
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You're inventing logic where such doesn't exist. NOT being given something is not punishment. You act as though you're going to keep running these Trials, not getting these rewards and then complain you are being punished. If you already know about the rules, then pick your tasks accordingly.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
After the patch, just like a fine for a traffic violation or whatever, the currency I would normally be earning is being taken from me before I get access to it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So I guess I have to submit my resignation from the "cool kids' club" then. I'm so behind the times. When I came back to CoX after hearing of it going F2P, I felt quite ahead of the game with my 28 Paragon Reward point Premium status (enough to have earned all facets of AE, and then some), but then it was less than a week before I was back at VIP because I felt I was still missing all the "cool stuff". Which in my case, was mainly the Incarnate system. What a dweeb.|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
I believe the argument is "OMG Incarnates are ruined for EVAR!!!" so why bother paying for VIP when you can get everything except incarnates as a premium player.
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/sarcasm off
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I think you're over-crediting your own intelligence. Your analogy is even more absurd than your original statements. How is the change comparable to a fine in any way, shape or form? Will they be taking E-Merits away from me? Oh, they won't. Then I guess your argument is null and void.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I'll play along.
On what grounds are you disputing it being a punishment? The only potential argument could be the semantics involved in whether or not not issuing a rightfully earned reward is the same as taking it after it has been rewarded. I don't know how it works in whatever country you are from but when I get a fine, that money comes from my wages automatically each week until it has been paid. The Emp merit fine too is coming from my wages automatically until it is paid. The only difference is the fact that I am never able to pay that debt. So I guess you are right, the term "punishment" isn't quite extreme enough by today's standards. I guess that last statement also depends on whether or not you consider a government issued fine a punishment or not but I don't think I am over-crediting your intelligence too much by assuming you do. |
And, seriously, you consider this SEMANTICS?
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| The only potential argument could be the semantics involved in whether or not not issuing a rightfully earned reward is the same as taking it after it has been rewarded. |
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I have only used Emp merits for costume unlocks and most of the people I've leagued with are far more interested in salvage. I'm not sure this change will work. If I need incarnate salvage I will still do the trials I know I can succeed in and get that salvage. My impression from game play is this is a major reason Lam and Baf are run so often.
Quick reply, admittedly I have not read the entire thread:
I dont care what they do. They can remove all rewards from BAF and LAM. They can aim three orbital laser cannons at my house with a finger on the big red button 24/7. They can send in a squad of PredAliens to stalk me as I take out the trash in the morning. They can steal my homework and kick sand in my face at the beach....
...I'm still not running Keyes.
I don't care what they do, or what they take away. I'm not running it. I won't be running any future content that is anything near it, either.
Its absolutely possible to diminish returns to the point where people quit caring. Words to the wise, and all that. I'm not in the game to be punished.
Broadly speaking, the short words are the best, and the old words best of all. /Churchill/
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Umm... It is. Semantics is a branch of linguistics that studies word meanings. So, in other words, quoted poster pretty much admitted that his entire analogy may be wrong, but used a long and sciency-sounding words instead of outright saying "Of course, it all depends on whether "not giving" and "taking away" mean the same thing." They don't. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
The difference between "This is no longer available." and "I am taking away your possessions." is SEMANTICS? |
Sesquipedalian loquaciousness and attempts to frame your argument to look like it came from a thesis on moral philosophy can briefly confuse your interlocutors, but they don't make a fallacious analogy any more valid than it is when stated in the way recommended by Mr. Churchill's maxim. (Mind you,. this kind of jargon, like any specialized subset of language, has its proper uses... When both parties understand it and use it as a tool to make meaning more clear and precise, not as means of showing off their knowledge of long words. There are discussions where calling semantics simply "meaning" would make the issue more difficult to understand.)
this thread is a bit anti-semantic
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I also think that your characterizing it as "punishment" is quite moronic.
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