Real Life Superhero Arrested
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-10-10 16:29 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Thank you, Steampunkette, for putting what I've wanted to say into words far better than I could. Anything I have thought of to say so far would only be flame bait for those who don't get this. I'm kind of aggressive like that.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I don't care if you're wearing a superhero costume.
<clip> Save me. Even if Photon and Zot and Others want you to let them die when they're in trouble: Save Me. Godspeed and good luck, Phoenix Jones. May your oppressors be exposed as the bumbling fools and out of touch loonies they so obviously are. -Rachel- |
Thank you, and as you said, good luck Phoenix Jones.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Oh, for f--k's sake, that's not what I said.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Save me. Even if Photon and Zot and Others want you to let them die when they're in trouble: Save Me.
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Just, you know what, forget it. You're right, clearly there is no difference between thinking a guy who goes looking for trouble with a camera crew in tow is a d-bag, and being a heartless ghoul who would watch someone kick puppies to death just to see them die. I don't know what I was thinking. Clearly we should all be roaming the streets administering pepper spray for justice and YouTube likes. To do any less would be inhumane and civically irresponsible.
Elvis wept.
Alright, this thread is starting to become fodder for the Rude Tells thread.....
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Oh if only this were to happen. I grew up in neighborhoods where gangs preyed upon those weaker than themselves and even though the people of the neighborhood outnumbered such ruffians by a great deal, it was the gangs that always got away with what they did. |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Oh, for f--k's sake, that's not what I said.
Just, you know what, forget it. You're right, clearly there is no difference between thinking a guy who goes looking for trouble with a camera crew in tow is a d-bag, and being a heartless ghoul who would watch someone kick puppies to death just to see them die. I don't know what I was thinking. Clearly we should all be roaming the streets administering pepper spray for justice and YouTube likes. To do any less would be inhumane and civically irresponsible. Elvis wept. |
Including when a 17 year old beat a 9 year old into near unconciousness. Everyone knew who did it, where it happened, and the reason for the beating (as ludicrous as it was the 17 year old was claiming it was justice). Yet, when the police finally did arrive some 2 hours after the occurance, no one said anything.
I was that 9 year old boy. I would've been happy were someone to pop up and pepper spray that fool, camera crew and all.
When I was in highschool , a kid I knew (and by that I mean I knew his name) was getting beat on by 2 other guys that were always in trouble for fighting. They managed to turn out the lights in the hallway and ended up right next to my locker, beating him to the floor. None of my other friends were around, but I got involved. Shoving one guy out the way, and getting the attention of the other. I'm only 5'6" and at the time barely 120 lbs. They both had me on height, weight, and of course out numbered me. One threatened my life, and I told him he could have it, but only after I made sure he'd never forget the day he took it. The delay worked long enough for security to show up and stop anything else from happening.
Mind you, in this hallway, there were guys in the football and basketball team, there were plenty of other kids. They all stood by and were willing to watch as this one kid got beat senseless. He ended up in the hospital and his parents later took him out of the school.
There have been psychological and socialogical studies done that have shown that in our society, when something bad occurs in areas of high population, people are less likely to act to help. That the person who does get involved is the outlier, and not the norm. This changed for a while in New York after 911, but has slowly returned to this standard.
In fact, there have been some instances where people took videos with their phone prior to dialing 911 or while someone else called. Man, that episode of Seinfeld really hit the nail on the head with that.
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Guy goes out with a flashlight in a T-Shirt and jeans. Patrolling the streets, shining his flashlight down dark alleyways, and finds a fight. He rushes in and breaks it up. Illegal? The man was obviously looking for trouble to stop it from happening. How about if he's wearing a blue uniform and a badge? Still illegal?|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Oh, for f--k's sake, that's not what I said.
Just, you know what, forget it. You're right, clearly there is no difference between thinking a guy who goes looking for trouble with a camera crew in tow is a d-bag, and being a heartless ghoul who would watch someone kick puppies to death just to see them die. I don't know what I was thinking. Clearly we should all be roaming the streets administering pepper spray for justice and YouTube likes. To do any less would be inhumane and civically irresponsible. Elvis wept. |
It shouldn't be illegal for anyone to use non-lethal force to stop violence. And, oh wait! It isn't. Citizen's arrests are legal.
Further, you seem to want him to just pass it off to the cops. And that's fine. I completely understand wanting the Cops involved. People in this thread have said he should go to training, get his badge, and do it "Legally". But he's already doing it legally and thanks to budget cuts they wouldn't be able to hire him, anyway.
Screw that. Here is a man willing to do the job of a Police Officer without the reimbursement, without the support, without the technology, and without the safety of a badge. He's amazing. And discouraging him from doing something amazing is ridiculous. The man knows the risks he's taking. He knows he could get shot or killed trying to help someone.
But between now and that day, the day when he gets himself shot, how many people will he help? How many people will be able to say "Thank you for not walking past, for not waiting until the cops came to the murder scene"?
Apparently n+1 than if most people saw the crime.
-Rachel-
I wonder what Kitty Genovese would think of the debate about leaving things to the police versus normal citizens taking an active and direct stance in what's going on around them.
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If he really was doing it only to help people he would have told the camera crew to not get involved. He not only allowed them to record it, but encouraged it. So no, he's not doing it to help his fellow man, he's doing it for the spotlight. Helping out his fellow man is just a side effect.
You know I really don't care if the guy who saved me was a *********. So long as he saved me.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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You can't know his motivation, especially since as we pointed out, the camara crew approched him, not the other way around, and having a camera on hand is just good sense. People are less likely to want to be recorded breaking the law, also it keeps an accurate account of what happened.|
Originally Posted by LordLundar
If he really was doing it only to help people he would have told the camera crew to not get involved. He not only allowed them to record it, but encouraged it. So no, he's not doing it to help his fellow man, he's doing it for the spotlight. Helping out his fellow man is just a side effect.
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Of course, on top of all that, who cares what his motivation is? If he helps people, he helps people.
A citizenry who would empower the police completely should not complain when they end up in a police state.
I understand he was unmasked, and the Media got hold of his name. I also understand that Phoenix Jones unmasked himself outside court, in order to do so on his own terms. The charges have been thrown out, owing to the video footage that tells a different story. So justice prevailed, thanks to our hero's camera crew, even if the criminals got away this time. I also understand that Phoenix Jones doesn't plan to stop. What did anyone expect? The last time he was stabbed and beaten, he left the hospital for his next patrol.
All this proves about the difference between comic books and reality is that citizen crime fighters NEED to video tape their patrols in this "grown up world" of ours. Edit: The Dark Guardian was using this tactic years before Phoenix Jones came along, and it has helped clean up Central Park by catching dealers on tape.
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Yeah cuz you know being able to provide hard evidence of the actual crime being committed as it was occurring and the identities of the actual criminals involved to Law Enforcement isn't helping anyone.
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Originally Posted by LordLundar
If he really was doing it only to help people he would have told the camera crew to not get involved. He not only allowed them to record it, but encouraged it. So no, he's not doing it to help his fellow man, he's doing it for the spotlight. Helping out his fellow man is just a side effect.
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Right, because he's turning over the video over to the police as opposed to posting it on youtube. Oh wait...|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yeah cuz you know being able to provide hard evidence of the actual crime being committed as it was occurring and the identities of the actual criminals involved to Law Enforcement isn't helping anyone.
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Let me make something clear here, I'm not opposed to him stopping crimes legally (and no, wearing a mask doesn't give you immunity) OR that videotaping it is a bad thing. But guess what, assaulting someone in the activity of a crime is still an assault and unless you have legal authorization to do so, you are still breaking the law. Two wrongs do not make a right.
As for the video crew, whether they asked first or not isn't relevant. He not only allowed them, but encouraged them. He's putting their lives on the line in addition to his own. There's nothing stopping him from recording it himself or telling the crew to stay back instead of getting right in there. If there was a 300lb monster in that group looking to pick a brawl,what's stopping him from grabbing that camera and busting it on the cameraman's head? Neither the camera crew nor Jones thought that through.
Finally, he's been in the media spotlight a number of times, all of which require a disclaimer to be signed, so don't you DARE tell me he's not after publicity. He wants play hero, he's welcome to it, I'm not about to stop him. All I'm saying that there's better ways to go about it than thoughtlessly charging into a group a group of thugs, camera crew mixed right in there and posting it up on youtube.
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They tried, the police wouldn't listen to them or look at anything they had, they instead to choose to believe the other group. In today's world, authorities have to learn to behave as if they are always on camera because chances are they are. In this case the cameras were obvious, and the police still wouldn't believe their story, that makes no sense to me why they though anyone videoing would ever lie about their activities.|
Originally Posted by LordLundar
Right, because he's turning over the video over to the police as opposed to posting it on youtube. Oh wait...
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Originally Posted by LordLundar
Let me make something clear here, I'm not opposed to him stopping crimes legally (and no, wearing a mask doesn't give you immunity) OR that videotaping it is a bad thing. But guess what, assaulting someone in the activity of a crime is still an assault and unless you have legal authorization to do so, you are still breaking the law. Two wrongs do not make a right.
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Originally Posted by LordLundar
As for the video crew, whether they asked first or not isn't relevant. He not only allowed them, but encouraged them. He's putting their lives on the line in addition to his own. There's nothing stopping him from recording it himself or telling the crew to stay back instead of getting right in there. If there was a 300lb monster in that group looking to pick a brawl,what's stopping him from grabbing that camera and busting it on the cameraman's head? Neither the camera crew nor Jones thought that through.
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Originally Posted by LordLundar
Finally, he's been in the media spotlight a number of times, all of which require a disclaimer to be signed, so don't you DARE tell me he's not after publicity. He wants play hero, he's welcome to it, I'm not about to stop him. All I'm saying that there's better ways to go about it than thoughtlessly charging into a group a group of thugs, camera crew mixed right in there and posting it up on youtube.
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You are so incorrect about a number of things here.|
Originally Posted by LordLundar
Let me make something clear here, I'm not opposed to him stopping crimes legally (and no, wearing a mask doesn't give you immunity) OR that videotaping it is a bad thing. But guess what, assaulting someone in the activity of a crime is still an assault and unless you have legal authorization to do so, you are still breaking the law. Two wrongs do not make a right.
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First of all, what he did was legal, as attributed by the fact that he didn't have to go to court. Second, using physical force is not illegal so long as that it is reasonable. What is reasonable is decided on a case by case basis. In this case, physically getting between assailants and victims and pepper spraying the assailants when they attack you is both legal and reasonable force.
The idea that if you see someone being beaten to death you can't restrain the guy doing the beating because you don't have the legal right is ridiculous. Of course you do!
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| As for the video crew, whether they asked first or not isn't relevant. He not only allowed them, but encouraged them. He's putting their lives on the line in addition to his own. |
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| If there was a 300lb monster in that group looking to pick a brawl,what's stopping him from grabbing that camera and busting it on the cameraman's head? Neither the camera crew nor Jones thought that through. |
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| Finally, he's been in the media spotlight a number of times, all of which require a disclaimer to be signed, so don't you DARE tell me he's not after publicity. |
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| All I'm saying that there's better ways to go about it than thoughtlessly charging into a group a group of thugs, camera crew mixed right in there and posting it up on youtube. |
I think the reason he has someone filming is not to "be a star" but to protect him so people cannot say well he did this and that, unfortunatly it looks like even though in this situation it was filmed and he was in the right, doing what a good samaratan would do they arrested him, even the little bit that of film the news is putting up he still looks like he didn't do anything wrong, the cops seems like they don't like this guy so they arrested him just for that reason.
Cancel the kitchen scraps for widows and lepers, no more merciful beheadings and call off christmas!
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and even when you leave the thread, you're filled with wrong.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Oh, for f--k's sake, that's not what I said.
Just, you know what, forget it. You're right, clearly there is no difference between thinking a guy who goes looking for trouble with a camera crew in tow is a d-bag, and being a heartless ghoul who would watch someone kick puppies to death just to see them die. I don't know what I was thinking. Clearly we should all be roaming the streets administering pepper spray for justice and YouTube likes. To do any less would be inhumane and civically irresponsible. Elvis wept. |
on another note, apparently Phoenix Jones isn't really a "Average Joe" and was a MMA fighter.
there were a couple silly things about this...mainly the "keep my identity secret" thing, but overall...he's really just a good samaritan in a costume.
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I think if anyone were looking to take this up, a video capture device would be one of the most important pieces of equipment.|
Originally Posted by 2short2care
I think the reason he has someone filming is not to "be a star" but to protect him so people cannot say well he did this and that,
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By and large at the end of the day, I have to agree with much of the sentiment in this thread. I'm not sure I would care why someone was saving me from something bad, as long as they were saving me. Having officers for friends and thinking of the pro's and con's of such an endeavour, I would still have to applaud anyone who makes an effort to make the world a better, safer, place.
I would love to see some sort of 'samaritan' registration sytem in place with the police that would train citizens on what their rights are, what risks they're taking by intervening in what ways, what they should and shouldn't do in those situations, what they legally can and can't do, with suggestions and resources they can explore further with.
And before you think it, no. I don't mean for costumed folks, for anyone. Folks that form neighborhood watches, folks that don't have a neighborhood watch but want to do something to help. Include CPR and other emergency courses with fees (that can benefit their local law enforcement agencies). There's a lot of volunteer work and such that provide similar resources through various avenues, but I mean having one something they can register for with local authorities. That way if some aggrandizing mask decides to step in, they can show the arriving police that registration (with their name on it) with their videorecorded evidence that will either catch the criminals in the act (or incriminate the would be vigilante who went against their registered training).
Giving folks an 'honest' avenue for doing such work might take some of the stress off of local law enforcement, while giving them a much needed hand in overpopulated, understaffed areas... But it's late and I'm tired, and it's just a thought
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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And if someone like Phoenix Jones had been there......maybe she'd still be around to ask. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I wonder what Kitty Genovese would think of the debate about leaving things to the police versus normal citizens taking an active and direct stance in what's going on around them.
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I've stayed out of this thread thus far, but to say that that man is anything other than a concerned citizen who wants to help save his community from things that the overworked, underfunded, and understaffed police force cannot stop is simply ludicrous.
What would YOU do if you witnessed a severe beating occurring? Call 911 and watch a man beaten to death because they took too long to show up?
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| That's right, it's not YOUR problem. You didn't know the guy whose murder you just witnessed, why should you stick your neck out for him, right? |
And a man who goes out night after night, trying to prevent bad things from happening to people is not praised. He is not respected. He is ridiculed and called delusional.
Makes me pretty sick really. When a man is told he is WRONG for trying to make a difference, you know the world's a ****** up place.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I wonder what "the founding fathers of the USA" would have said...
oh wait...
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If you don't understand that then there is in all arts, to which language may be called one by some, the tendency to elegance in which things are simplified and made as elegant as to evoke the most understanding and proper reactions from the reader and to that I offer you the more modern variation of the above...| But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. |
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| **** tha Police |
Well, that's another odd combo for today... The Founding Fathers and NWA and ACS and Nazis... Da Brain is taking us in weird directions today...
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It didn't even have to 'be someone like Phoenix Jones' in the sense of a costumed guy who personally intervenes.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And if someone like Phoenix Jones had been there......maybe she'd still be around to ask.
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It would have just had to been someone who didn't just look out the window and go back to bed when they saw it was someone they didn't know. Or someone who didn't just let 'someone else' call the police.
I've made it one of my personal goals in life to give the middle finger to the Bystander Effect. More places need so-called Good Samaritan laws to protect people legally who try to help and provisions that make it mandatory to come to aid or summon emergency services or be held accountable if they don't reasonably try.
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Really? JUST for the spotlight?|
Originally Posted by LordLundar
If he really was doing it only to help people he would have told the camera crew to not get involved. He not only allowed them to record it, but encouraged it. So no, he's not doing it to help his fellow man, he's doing it for the spotlight. Helping out his fellow man is just a side effect.
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Nevermind the fact that the video footage taken by the camera crew is perfectly admissible as evidence in any legal proceedings, or that the same footage can verify that he did nothing wrong in his attempt to stop whatever crime is being perpetrated.
If there were no camera crew, it would be his word against theirs as to what really happened. If there was no video footage of what he's doing, all anyone has to say is "This guy just ran up and pepper sprayed me while I was minding my own business! He's crazy! Just look at him, who dresses like that in public!?"
Without the video footage, the only thing he can do is say "That's not what happened at all" If you're the responding officer, whose story are you going to buy?
Having a camera crew while doing that kind of stuff isn't an attempt at self aggrandizing, it's just being SMART, because he knows damn well people are going to try and paint the guy wearing a costume as the bad guy if he didn't have video evidence to the contrary.
If not for the video evidence, he'd probably already be in jail for assault because the police refused to believe a guy would go out and HELP people while dressed in a superhero outfit, just because he felt it was the right thing to do.
I can't say I would go out and do the same thing, but I have to respect the guy for standing up for what's right, costume or no. Its one thing to sit at home and say "We need to clean up the streets" or hold charity dinners, or organize community events. It's another thing entirely to go out and do something about it personally.
It takes a different kind of person to be willing to go out and help people you don't know, without being paid, or supported, or recognized for it in any way. It takes a different kind of person to go out and do that, knowing that you could be seriously hurt or killed in the process. It takes a different kind of person to do all that, while being ridiculed and called delusional by half the people across the country.
And you can dislike me all you want for saying this, but I believe that most of the people ridiculing Phoenix Jones are just jealous that they don't have the balls to do something like that, and never will.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Rule Zero of any sort of civilian rescue/first responder/first aid training is "Don't add yourself to the list of people in need of help." If you stick your nose into anything more violent than a heated argument, you just broke Rule Zero.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's what's wrong with this world. That is the NORMAL mode of thought for most people. "It's not my problem." "What if *I* get hurt trying to stop it?"
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The pros WANT that to be the norm because it reduces the body count.
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This is the reason why people die even when 911 is called. I've seen it happen first hand. A friend even warned me about this, and told me not to tell the 911 operator that the person in front of me bleeding to death was shot, I didn't listen thinking they wouldn't just let someone die like that... |
Originally Posted by Black Zot
Rule Zero of any sort of civilian rescue/first responder/first aid training is "Don't add yourself to the list of people in need of help." If you stick your nose into anything more violent than a heated argument, you just broke Rule Zero.
The pros WANT that to be the norm because it reduces the body count. |
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Just remember, if you're ever the one that needs help.....you are in favor of people not getting involved. |
Originally Posted by Black Zot
Rule Zero of any sort of civilian rescue/first responder/first aid training is "Don't add yourself to the list of people in need of help." If you stick your nose into anything more violent than a heated argument, you just broke Rule Zero.
The pros WANT that to be the norm because it reduces the body count. |
I would bet a years pay your tune would change instantly if YOU are the one dying and someone just stood there watching because it wasn't their problem.
Don't intervene in that fight, because it's not your business. And just keep telling yourself that when someone dies because you did nothing, even though you were right there and could have done something.
Then go explain to that person's family how you let their loved one die because it wasn't your problem. I'm sure they'll forgive you. Right? I mean how could they NOT forgive the person who allowed their loved one's death through inaction.
Would YOU forgive someone who allowed someone you cared about to die simply because they didn't want to get involved? A brother, a good friend, your wife? Someone watched them beaten to death on the street and did nothing. How would you feel about that person? Would you still think they did the right thing by not getting involved?
I doubt it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
How bout if you're an adult and see 5 kids beating up another kid. Should people be arrested for stopping that from happening?