Doctor Who: The Wedding of River Song 1/10 (10/1)
By
Arbegla,
Posted on: 2011-10-01 10:04 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Not quite what I was getting at. Suppose the following conversation:|
Originally Posted by Dark One
Not his "death".
His apparent death. Big distinction there. Had it been his real death, the universe still would've went kaflooey when the robot got whacked. |
Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EXTERMINATE!!"
Dalek 2: "NEGATE! The Doctor's death is a fixed point in time! Extermination here would destroy time itself!"
Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EVACUATE!!"
The *Doctor* knows that he can be killed by Daleks without destroying the universe. But *they* don't know that. They all think he died in 2011, and nothing in the universe can change that. Hence, they'll know to not even try.
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That does give him a big advantage when it comes to saving others.
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Originally Posted by ThugOne
Not quite what I was getting at. Suppose the following conversation:
Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EXTERMINATE!!" Dalek 2: "NEGATE! The Doctor's death is a fixed point in time! Extermination here would destroy time itself!" Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EVACUATE!!" The *Doctor* knows that he can be killed by Daleks without destroying the universe. But *they* don't know that. They all think he died in 2011, and nothing in the universe can change that. Hence, they'll know to not even try. |
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Except for the fact that River Song has a book containing a list of incarnations 1-11 (minimally), complete with pictures.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Well, only from our perspective. Since the Doctor's a time traveler and stuff anyway, the rest of the universe sees him with all sorts of different faces at all sorts of different times. There's really not much "outside" way to tell which Doctor came when.
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The Atraxi also seemed to only be aware of 1-10, so if they saw a new Doctor running about they'd know it was 12+.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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When has "knowing" something ever stopped someone from trying the impossible? Even a Dalek, if presented the opportunity, would IMO still attempt to kill the Doctor. Or if not the Doctor, then those the Doctor cares about.|
Originally Posted by ThugOne
Not quite what I was getting at. Suppose the following conversation:
Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EXTERMINATE!!" Dalek 2: "NEGATE! The Doctor's death is a fixed point in time! Extermination here would destroy time itself!" Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EVACUATE!!" The *Doctor* knows that he can be killed by Daleks without destroying the universe. But *they* don't know that. They all think he died in 2011, and nothing in the universe can change that. Hence, they'll know to not even try. |
And given the size of all time and space, there's any number of things that could be the Doctor. Clones, alternate universe versions, etc. All of which could be killed with impunity. So, while the main Doctor could die in 2011, there could other things that resemble the Doctor that they could kill.
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This was brought up in The Waters of Mars. Even the Daleks won't willingly kill a person if said death is at a fixed point in history. |
Originally Posted by Dark One
When has "knowing" something ever stopped someone from trying the impossible? Even a Dalek, if presented the opportunity, would IMO still attempt to kill the Doctor. Or if not the Doctor, then those the Doctor cares about.
And given the size of all time and space, there's any number of things that could be the Doctor. Clones, alternate universe versions, etc. All of which could be killed with impunity. So, while the main Doctor could die in 2011, there could other things that resemble the Doctor that they could kill. |
Mars Base Commander Adelaide Brooke recounts how a Dalek didn't kill her when she was ten years old. This took place during The Stolen Earth. Despite having the opportunity to exterminate Adelaide Brooke, the Dalek doesn't and simply flies away. The Doctor explains about fixed points in history, with Base Commander Brooke's future death on Mars being one of them.
Of course the Doctor tries to get around this, believing he has every right to do so, proclaiming himself the "Time Lord Victorious". Angered and disturbed by the Doctor's arrogance, Adelaide Brooke kills herself, undoing the changes the Doctor made to the timeline.
Actually fixed point in time can change...
They can be tweaked so that the perception is unchanged, but it is still changed. For example the Doctor must die at x point. To the universal perception he does die... it's just been tweaked so that the he that is him isn't the him that we think it is.
We saw this at Pompei as well. The city had to be destroyed in the volcano, but just because the city did doesn't mean all the people did.
They can also be altered so that they never existed by way of changing all those wibbly wobbly points. For example at any given point in history the earth could be destroyed and because this is true it is also true that at any given point the fixed point that happens in 2011 on Earth can't happen thus it is no longer a fixed point.
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That's maybe why they tried to eternally imprison The Doctor in the Pandoricon rather than kill him.
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Originally Posted by ThugOne
Not quite what I was getting at. Suppose the following conversation:
Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EXTERMINATE!!" Dalek 2: "NEGATE! The Doctor's death is a fixed point in time! Extermination here would destroy time itself!" Dalek 1: "IT IS THE DOCTOR! EVACUATE!!" The *Doctor* knows that he can be killed by Daleks without destroying the universe. But *they* don't know that. They all think he died in 2011, and nothing in the universe can change that. Hence, they'll know to not even try. |
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River also has Rule Number One in her book. So anyone reading it knows it's very possible that the Doctor could have lied to her about how many regenerations he's been thru. The Doctor is famous for keeping secrets.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Except for the fact that River Song has a book containing a list of incarnations 1-11 (minimally), complete with pictures.
The Atraxi also seemed to only be aware of 1-10, so if they saw a new Doctor running about they'd know it was 12+. |
No the Atraxi are only aware of 10 incarnations that defended the Earth. They have no idea how many other incarnations existed.
Why are the Silence trying to kill the Doctor? "Silence will fall when the question is answered" so maybe 'the' Silence will fall (being a religious order) which is why they're trying so hard to eliminate him.
More than the story itself: I enjoyed seeing old faces return instead of fading out and never being mentioned again - the blue guy from the mid-series finalé, the Tesselecta and of course Caeser Winston Churchill 
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I have a wibbly wobbly headache the more I think about all this. Come back Reapers and repair all the damage the Doctor has done... is doing... will do... |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Actually fixed point in time can change...
They can be tweaked so that the perception is unchanged, but it is still changed. For example the Doctor must die at x point. To the universal perception he does die... it's just been tweaked so that the he that is him isn't the him that we think it is. We saw this at Pompei as well. The city had to be destroyed in the volcano, but just because the city did doesn't mean all the people did. They can also be altered so that they never existed by way of changing all those wibbly wobbly points. For example at any given point in history the earth could be destroyed and because this is true it is also true that at any given point the fixed point that happens in 2011 on Earth can't happen thus it is no longer a fixed point. |
Watched it last night and enjoyed it immensely.
Amy and Rory were great. Amy looked particularly sexy too! 
I liked the way they subtly implied that River and the Doctor will get married properly at some point in time. Sweet.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Yes, the whole idea of 'fixed points in time' is a ridiculous bit of writing oneself into a corner; you end up with a story about a guy with a time machine who can't change time, can't actually affect anything: pointless. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
They can also be altered so that they never existed by way of changing all those wibbly wobbly points. For example at any given point in history the earth could be destroyed and because this is true it is also true that at any given point the fixed point that happens in 2011 on Earth can't happen thus it is no longer a fixed point.
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I expect that 'rule' to be ret-conned away & quietly forgotten in the future.
Or possibly the past.
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Yeah, there was the Doctor's rebellious teen period where he decided to stop defending Earth...|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
River also has Rule Number One in her book. So anyone reading it knows it's very possible that the Doctor could have lied to her about how many regenerations he's been thru. The Doctor is famous for keeping secrets.
No the Atraxi are only aware of 10 incarnations that defended the Earth. They have no idea how many other incarnations existed. |
And why would he lie to River? The entire point of the guide was so she would always be able to recognize him.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I can understand a fixed point being something you can't go into and directly change.|
Originally Posted by Sugar_Rush
Yes, the whole idea of 'fixed points in time' is a ridiculous bit of writing oneself into a corner; you end up with a story about a guy with a time machine who can't change time, can't actually affect anything: pointless.
I expect that 'rule' to be ret-conned away & quietly forgotten in the future. Or possibly the past. |
But as pointed out, there gets to a point when you realise that any change can effect everything. Especially when earth's destruction was at stake, what if, in The Empty Child the Doctor hasn't been there and the whole world was recreated by the Nanogenes?
A whole host of fixed points would not be able to exist.
And since the whole concept of non-fixed points in time is that time can be changed or rewritten, there was no guarantee that the Doctor would be there to set things right.
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Quite the reverse actually.|
Originally Posted by Sugar_Rush
Yes, the whole idea of 'fixed points in time' is a ridiculous bit of writing oneself into a corner; you end up with a story about a guy with a time machine who can't change time, can't actually affect anything: pointless.
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If time could continually be rewritten you'd just keep at it ground-hog day fashion until you arrived at an outcome you liked and stop there. There would be zero drama or consequences. So authors need devices for why some things cannot change. This is why Doctor Who has always had the rule about crossing your own time line.
Otherwise you end up with stories where the Doctor just gets upset and rolls everything back. Which is ****. Yes, TV Movie, I am looking at you
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I came off feeling a little unsatisfied, personally, for two reasons. First off, we know, ever since the bar scene with the Teselecta, it's been a robot. River never needed to handcuff him. He could have just said "Oh, by the way, I'm a robot". A lot of the "I HAVE TO DIE" "NO YOU DON'T" drama seems a bit pointless in that light.
Second of all, all the episodes leading up to this have had a strong sense of survivor's guilt for the doctor: Kavoria (sp?)'s point, is, in fact, he makes people into monsters. He even rants to Craig about his "everything I touch withers and dies" tendencies. It would have been brilliant if seeing the response the universe gave when River asked for them to help him was what caused him to frantically make up a new plan to save his skin: He realises he's not perfect but he means a lot to a lot of people. Instead, he's still got that unresolved guilt and just always intended on cheating fate. It just seemed thematically inconsistent.
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You misunderstand, the Doctor was trying to convince EVERYONE he was dead. In the end he had to settle for everyone bar four (and I guess the Teselecta crew). He didn't want to just come out and say "I'm in a robot suit" as that would have utterly defeated the point of trying to fool everybody.
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Originally Posted by Spectral_Ent
I came off feeling a little unsatisfied, personally, for two reasons. First off, we know, ever since the bar scene with the Teselecta, it's been a robot. River never needed to handcuff him. He could have just said "Oh, by the way, I'm a robot". A lot of the "I HAVE TO DIE" "NO YOU DON'T" drama seems a bit pointless in that light.
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That was somewhat awkwardly phrased, yeah, I don't mean I think he should have been screaming about it the second time broke, but the bit with River could have easily been "You plonker! I'm faking my death here!". I guess the excuse could have been "there wasn't a good time" until the end, but...
Still unthematic!
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River's pretty easy to explain, actually. In her situation, basically, why should she be honest? If bad-types ever got hold of her diary, they would find out the order of the Doctors, which is something that she, married to and in love with the Doctor, absolutely does not want anyone to know at this point. It suits her to keep up the ruse as well.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
And why would he lie to River? The entire point of the guide was so she would always be able to recognize him.
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Given how many fixed points the Doctor seems to be involved in, one might conjecture that the Doctor's entire existence is a line of fixed points. But then you start getting into arguments about free will.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
I can understand a fixed point being something you can't go into and directly change.
But as pointed out, there gets to a point when you realise that any change can effect everything. Especially when earth's destruction was at stake, what if, in The Empty Child the Doctor hasn't been there and the whole world was recreated by the Nanogenes? A whole host of fixed points would not be able to exist. And since the whole concept of non-fixed points in time is that time can be changed or rewritten, there was no guarantee that the Doctor would be there to set things right. |
I had a thought today: what happened to the Doctor and the Tesselecta crew when the Tesselecta Doctor was burned? They never had the opportunity to leave without River, Amy and Rory noticing.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Don't they have a teleporter? Wasn't that how the crew escaped when Doctor Fez released the antibodies?
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I had a thought today: what happened to the Doctor and the Tesselecta crew when the Tesselecta Doctor was burned? They never had the opportunity to leave without River, Amy and Rory noticing.
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Well I thought that had been shown to only deposit the teleportee next to the body of the robot. But I guess that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
Don't they have a teleporter? Wasn't that how the crew escaped when Doctor Fez released the antibodies?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I thought that they had a ship in orbit that was their bug-out location?
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Well I thought that had been shown to only deposit the teleportee next to the body of the robot. But I guess that makes sense.
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This showed up on one of the nerd sites I regularly frequent:
http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/10/...river_song.php
Not sure where it came from but it sounds like Alex Kingston doing the voiceover so I'd wager it's official. Basically, this tells River's story in a chronological order, picking up all the threads from previous episodes. It's really nicely done and now makes a lot more sense.
Personally, I thought Silence in the Library was a fairly weak episode (two-parter) but seeing this now makes me want to go back and watch it again. That final scene now seems so damned heartbreaking.
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A lot of this seems to be Moffat's way to undo some of the lore that RTD had added to the Whoverse. So I wonder how Moffat's successor will try to undo *this*.
His apparent death. Big distinction there. Had it been his real death, the universe still would've went kaflooey when the robot got whacked.
At the end of the day, the Universe has a sense of humor. This is just another example of that.