Doctor Who: The Wedding of River Song 1/10 (10/1)
By
Arbegla,
Posted on: 2011-10-01 10:04 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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The Doctor lies...
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Originally Posted by Jagged
Gallifrey's civilisation pre-dates Earth's quite significantly. To quote from the first episode:
The Doctor : "For your science, school-master. Not for ours. I tell you, before your ancestors had turned the first wheel, the people of my world had reduced movement through the farthest reaches of space to a game for children." |
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Can we stop quoting that now? |
Originally Posted by Durakken
The Doctor lies...
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Gallifrey has also been described as one of the oldest civilisations in the galaxy by other aliens in the series and Earth/humans as "young".
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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As mentioned, Earth and Gallifrey are probably not the same planet, and almost certainly not the same solar system. But that doesn't prevent the possibility that time traveling humans of the future might not become the Gallifrayans of the past.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Could Gallifrey be Earth in the future?
Gallifrayans look a lot like Humans... Humans and Galligrayans are mixable genetically via Donna Noble Humans seem to be effected by the time vortex and can become Time Lords We've never seen another Time Lord near Earth save for rebels(of course i haven't watched all Dr. Who) There is a law against travelling into Gallifrayan history The Dalleks like to attack Earth a lot and the Dalleks hate the Time Lords... |
Personally, I doubt that relationship between humans and Gallifrayans. There are quite a few very human looking races in the universe. We were just introduced to another human looking, two-hearted, time manipulating race in The Girl Who Waited, so humans aren't even the most Time Lord like race out there.
Now if we want to argue that Timelords did some sort of seeding of their DNA throughout time and space, that wouldn't surprise me at all.
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Yes but not about every thing or even most things. He appears to lie when the lie will advance whatever plan is running or if it will protect his companions or himself. Beyond that he actually seems to be fairly truthful.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
The Doctor lies...
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Also, let's not forget that Gallifrey is a red, bronze and rust coloured planet that is much larger than earth.
Moreover, earth was destroyed in the year 5 billion, with it's human inhabitants having moved off world, still as humans (although, not "pure" humans)
Another thing to note is that the Gallifreyans evolved billions upon billions of years before life on earth even existed, and actually became Time Lords billions of years before humans existed.
Then, of course, let's not forget that earth exists concurrently with the Time Lords (although, not from the same Time as the Doctor's Time Lord, some media states he left Gallifrey around the year 2 Billion).
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I've kicked that idea around myself, but as has been pointed out, the Tennant story with the Master pretty much tosses that one out the window. Really, it wouldn't be that great a reveal anyway, imho.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Could Gallifrey be Earth in the future?
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The problem with that picture is Gallifrey is closer to us and we have no point of reference so it could actually be smaller but closer...but I'm pretty sure its' not.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
Also, let's not forget that Gallifrey is a red, bronze and rust coloured planet that is much larger than earth.
Moreover, earth was destroyed in the year 5 billion, with it's human inhabitants having moved off world, still as humans (although, not "pure" humans) Another thing to note is that the Gallifreyans evolved billions upon billions of years before life on earth even existed, and actually became Time Lords billions of years before humans existed. Then, of course, let's not forget that earth exists concurrently with the Time Lords (although, not from the same Time as the Doctor's Time Lord, some media states he left Gallifrey around the year 2 Billion). |
Forgetting the impossibility of life starting billions of years before it did on earth for the most part if Time Lords are in the present doesn't that mean that the stasis lock at some point is removed?
I don't really see why Time Lords couldn't have Earth origins. I think it's fully possible that they're humans, so many years in the future that they've forgotten their original roots. Plus, who can say exactly when Gallifrey is? With exposure over centuries to the Time Vortex evolving them into Time Lords, they could exist at any point in time, really.
The same thin happened with the Guardians of Oa. In Blackest Night, we find that they originated from Earth, but moved to Oa to hide the importance of Earth. Over centuries, they all but forgot they'd come from anywhere but Oa. I think this model suits the Time Lords just fine. Now, would it be that great of a reveal? Not really. But it does have interesting story possibilities, especially if you consider some of the old stuff alluding to the idea that The Doctor was, or will be, instrumental to the creation of the Time Lords.
Couldn't Gallifrey be the Earth, but moved back in time? Basically, put the Earth inside a Tardis, jump back to year whatever, let it out of the Tardis around a new sun and BOOM!. Home of the Time Lords.
They say it was "destroyed", but what if it was taken just prior to being destroyed (presumably by the sun expanding)?
Five billion years is a long time for the Earth to change. It could be built up in the style of New New York in Futurama.
The question is are humans gallifreyans or are gallifreyans human? In other words, did a colony of gallifreyans devolve into humans on Earth or did a group of humans escape into the past to save their society from some disaster like the end of time.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Wow... you read that wrong|
Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa
The same thin happened with the Guardians of Oa. In Blackest Night, we find that they originated from Earth, but moved to Oa to hide the importance of Earth. Over centuries, they all but forgot they'd come from anywhere but Oa.
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Earth is where the first LIFE originated.
Earth is not where the Guardians come from and they never forgot where they came from. They come from Maltus.
Maltusians are the first SENTIENT life to have evolved.
Maltusians, when they left their home planet evolved into several offshoots...
Guardians
Zamarons
Controllers
Leprechauns
Babylonian Deities (One of which interbred with Humans)
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Oh, yeah. You're right. It's been a while since I read Blackest Night |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Wow... you read that wrong
Earth is where the first LIFE originated. Earth is not where the Guardians come from and they never forgot where they came from. They come from Maltus. Maltusians are the first SENTIENT life to have evolved. Maltusians, when they left their home planet evolved into several offshoots... Guardians Zamarons Controllers Leprechauns Babylonian Deities (One of which interbred with Humans) |
However, the concept does still fit Gallifreyans, more or less! Though it is hard to get anything to fit perfectly with all of the Doctor's long, long history.
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In the episode in question you get the perspective. It is much larger.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
The problem with that picture is Gallifrey is closer to us and we have no point of reference so it could actually be smaller but closer...but I'm pretty sure its' not.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Forgetting the impossibility of life starting billions of years before it did on earth for the most part if Time Lords are in the present doesn't that mean that the stasis lock at some point is removed?
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Also the universe is currently believed to be around 13.7 billion years old with the first stars forming at around 1 billion. (Just watched Horizon
) Our solar system is only 4.5 billion years old, so plenty of time for star spanning civilisations to rise and fall.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
The problem with trying to pin down Gallifrey's history and origins is that the BBC and the directors working on Doctor Who are deliberately 'wibbly wobbly' with hard facts and figures. Stripping away the complete mystery and wonder of the Time Lords and Gallifrey isn't likely to be done.
This is compounded by both canonical and non-canonical sources that compliment and contradict each other, and that there are few points of reference to accurately date historical events. Check out William Swift's attempt at making sense of this at Rassilon, Omega, and that Other Guy.
If you just go by what is referenced on the television series, Gallifreyans are an ancient species, and one of the first humaoid species to evolve in the universe (The Beast Below).
In Genesis of the Daleks it is mentioned that Time Lords had perfected the Transmat Beam when the universe was less than half its present size.
Mentioned in The Runaway Bride is that Time Lords were engaged in interstellar war against the Racnoss Empire before our solar system was ever formed.
That makes Gallifrey and the Time Lords one of the oldest known humanoid civilizations in the Whoverse. Fighting interstellar wars before our solar system was even formed, and hard at work perfecting space-time technology when the universe was half its present size.
That roughly places Gallifrey and Time Lord civilization being active over 4.5 billion years ago (before our solar system was formed). It's anyone's guess as to the exact date the universe was half it's present size.
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We've also seen that moving planets across time and space isn't that difficult. Time isn't really an issue here. If you were going to found a time-spanning society, where would you start?
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Originally Posted by Comrade Hero
That makes Gallifrey and the Time Lords one of the oldest known humanoid civilizations in the Whoverse. Fighting interstellar wars before our solar system was even formed, and hard at work perfecting space-time technology when the universe was half its present size.
That roughlys place the Gallifrey and Time Lord civilization being active over 4.5 billion years ago (before our solar system was formed). It's anyone's guess as to the exact date the universe was half it's present size. |
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Saw it, forgot about it till after I posted about Time Lords human thing|
Originally Posted by Jagged
In the episode in question you get the perspective. It is much larger.
You really need to see that episode. |
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Also the universe is currently believed to be around 13.7 billion years old with the first stars forming at around 1 billion. (Just watched Horizon ) Our solar system is only 4.5 billion years old, so plenty of time for star spanning civilisations to rise and fall.
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See back when stars first formed there was nothing else there... just Hydrogen and Helium. Those are called 1st generation stars. They were big and died fast and hard, lasting only millions of years, but this got things going with a few heavier elements and black holes...
After that Second Generation stars popped up, but they still only have lighter elements to work with when forming whatever they formed. Not sure whether they have planets or not. The lived a bit longer, but ultimately there just isn't enough heavy elements around while these guys were forming to create planets and life...
After that Third Generation stars formed, which our star and planets came about almost as soon as this stage began and it took Earth 4 billion years years roughly to cool down and get the right mixture for life to occur and as soon as it reached the point where it was possible life came about...
Once life came about you can pretty much track brain size and intelligence and such back to the dawn of animals with brains and there is a steady growth curve between the first and the current animals on earth.
In other word Humans came about pretty much as soon as Sentient life could come about. Since we're not sure when our drive to start advancing technologically came we only know that humans have been around for about 2 million years, in their current form 200,000, and we only really took off in a major way 10,000ish years ago.
So at best sentient life has only been around for 2 million or less years as far as the data seems to indicate... and it is also the case that even if you would consider humans sentient for all that time more advanced civilization only occurred very recently... and our level only within the last 100.
I would push back and say that 2000 years ago we had the ability to do those 100 years knowledge wise, but not the right environment.
So best case scenario our data points say that if everything lined up and somehow increased how fast another race got to where we are and beyond the oldest races would be no more than a 2-2.5 million years old, but more than likely they had to face similar prehistorical paths and every sentient life is within 2000 years ahead of where we are today or behind...
That seems like a little but it's a huge number considering exponential growth of technology.
Also as pointed out evolution makes things smarter over time so as more stars form and such over the timeline there will be few sentient races and then exponentially more as time goes by as long as we don't kill them off or mess with their evolution.
That's one of the reasons I think SETI is sort of a joke right now. We're likely one of the first species to get to where we are. There is no help out there. There are no super advanced aliens coming to kill us. There are just a bunch of species at beginning of the journey to explore the universe.
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Information from the BBC on the Location of Gallifrey from the Classic Series:|
Originally Posted by Rezarus
We've also seen that moving planets across time and space isn't that difficult. Time isn't really an issue here. If you were going to found a time-spanning society, where would you start?
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The Time Lord in Terror of the Autons says he has travelled 29,000 light years, which is about the distance from Earth to the centre of the Milky Way. Assuming he's come straight to Earth, this would indicate that Gallifrey is at the galactic core, or very far out on the edge, or above the plane of the galaxy. The first assumption seems the most reasonable. In Marco Polo, Susan tells Ping Cho that her home is 'as far as a night star', which, if taken literally, means that it's in Earth's galaxy. Gallifrey's star lies within the constellation of Kasterborous, as seen from Earth (see Mission to the Unknown). The galactic core is in Sagittarius, so perhaps Kasterborous occupies the same area in Earth's sky in the future. In Pyramids of Mars Gallifrey is said to have the binary coordinates of 1001100 by 02 (in Gallifreyan notation only the first part is binary). Gallifrey is a few billion millions away from Karn, putting it in the same solar system, with at least three other planets (The Brain of Morbius), possibly four (The Deadly Assassin). If Gallifrey is in the Milky Way then 'Mutter's Spiral' is either the Time Lord name for our own galaxy or a reference to the galaxy's spiral arms (they being at the core). Another name for Earth's galaxy is the Stellian Galaxy (The Trial of a Time Lord). The centre of human affairs, some centuries in the future, moves to the galactic core (The Happiness Patrol), which might give Gallifrey pause for thought. |
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Being in the galactic core is, IMO, the least reasonable position for Gallifrey. Lots of stars packed into a smaller space.
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Originally Posted by Comrade Hero
Information from the BBC on the Location of Gallifrey from the Classic Series:
In the Doctor Who movie with the Eighth Doctor and the The Family of Blood with the Tenth Doctor Gallifrey is mentioned as being some 250 million light years from Earth. Although given that Gallifrey itself is often reached through time travel rather than travel through space, the question is not just where, but when is Gallifrey. |
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In one of the books or audio books, its hinted Gallifrayans at one point spread the seeds of Gallifrayan life across the Universe, so its not that Gallifrayans look a lot like Humans, its that Humans look a lot like Gallifryans as do many other races|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Could Gallifrey be Earth in the future?
Gallifrayans look a lot like Humans... Humans and Galligrayans are mixable genetically via Donna Noble Humans seem to be effected by the time vortex and can become Time Lords We've never seen another Time Lord near Earth save for rebels(of course i haven't watched all Dr. Who) There is a law against travelling into Gallifrayan history The Dalleks like to attack Earth a lot and the Dalleks hate the Time Lords... |
Donna I wouldn't call a good example, seeing that Doctor Donna had to be supressed, since the Gallifrayan side was burning her out, you saw something similiar with Rose in the Bad Wolf story line
I still suspect that there was more than being conceived in the TARDIS that made River a TL
A little better definition of rebals might be needed,
Romana was never technically a Renegade Timelord
Azmael
K'anpo
At the End of Time, the entire Gallifrayan High Council briefly visited Earth
the Daleks hate and attack everybody, with that said they do hold the Time Lords in special contempt, and humans are on the same list as Thals, you know the list of races who refuse to be Exterminated.
Given how wacky the TL's are, they could be leftovers from a previous Big Bang, which could allow them to exist in this universe long before it's reasonable for sentient life to have evolved.
And there is always the "It's just a show, you should really just relax" argument :-)
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Agreed, I sugest both Deadly Assassin and Invasion of Time for hints that the Doctor was more than your average Timelord, during the 4th Doctor's time, as well as the 7th Doctor, although there have been hints elsewhere.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Well the question of who is The Doctor really goes back at least to the Fourth Doctor and maybe longer. Not having seen all of the 1 - 3 Doctors episodes I'm not certain if any hints where dropped there. But with the Fourth one some hints during his tenure as President and around those episodes on Gallifray imply he knows more than the person he claims to be should. This comes up a couple of times later and then the Seventh Doctor takes it and runs with it. There was heavy implication during that Doctors term that he knew alot more about the founding of the Time Lords and possibly the original ruling Triumvirate then he should. He plays with toys belonging to Omega and Rassilon as if they where his own. They respond to him and obey his orders when he uses them. Much is implied that he may be older and not exactly what he appears to be during that time.
The books do the same thing but who knows which of those are truly cannon and which are not any more the BBC kept changing things. Some of the books make some explicit claims that are likely not true. After all Rule One is that The Doctor LIES. And it is very possible that this entire existence as The Doctor is one of those lies possibly a huge one. Consider that even the might of the Time Lords was brought against him by the founder of The Time Lords and he defeated them. So really Dr. Who? |
The bad side is, we're talking about different production teams and writers
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Ignoring the consequences of the Time War for a moment it exists outside of space and time. Thats why it was always suppose to be impregnable.
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Originally Posted by Comrade Hero
Although given that Gallifrey itself is often reached through time travel rather than travel through space, the question is not just where, but when is Gallifrey.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Ayup - one of Gallifrey's best defenses. |
Originally Posted by Jagged
Ignoring the consequences of the Time War for a moment it exists outside of space and time. Thats why it was always suppose to be impregnable.
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Except this is a fictional Universe.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Saw it, forgot about it till after I posted about Time Lords human thing
One would think, but not really. [snip... loads of stuff about stars] |
We've seen that Racnoss formed Earth with their ship at the centre, thus the Racnoss must have existed long before humanity.
The Nestene, Carrionites, Great Vampires and Racnoss (along with perhaps the Vashta Nerada and Weeping Angels) all existed in the "Dark Times" of the Universe along with the Time Lords. The Time Lords, in interstellar war eventually wiped them all out. This was all long before Earth even existed.
The Dark Times ended some 4.6 billion years before now.
The Doctor : "For your science, school-master. Not for ours. I tell you, before your ancestors had turned the first wheel, the people of my world had reduced movement through the farthest reaches of space to a game for children."
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04