The one thing I can't stand in this game
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Aleusha,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 18:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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1. Terrible idea.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Two things pop out at me:
1) You're not taking advantage of all the ways you can work builds without having to commit to them, like second/third builds, or the Test Server. 2) There are numerous threads showing players how to build characters for various playstyles, there are threads explaining how to make Inf in the market, and other threads that make this game very easy to play. If you don't desire to follow any of that advice, I can honestly say you're playing the wrong game for your idea of fun. There is no shame in that. |
2. Terrible idea.
You are easily one of the worst posters on this forum because your contribution in threads can be summed up like this:
Learn2play.
At least GG lays out some compelling arguments from time to time.
Respecs need to happen more commonly to increase interest in the game in my opinion.
Can't you buy respect recipies? If you run out of the three from trials, the ones devs give out and the vet ones?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If you honestly need to respec your character after every single level, then yes, you really do need to learn2play. As it is, you are given enough respecs that you could basically respec every 10 levels and still have respecs left over....
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
1. Terrible idea.
2. Terrible idea. You are easily one of the worst posters on this forum because your contribution in threads can be summed up like this: Learn2play. At least GG lays out some compelling arguments from time to time. Respecs need to happen more commonly to increase interest in the game in my opinion. |
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How much more commonly? Its been laid out that you can get them pretty darn often via the trials, the freebies, the Vet rewards, etc. Its been also shown that you essentially have three test builds to mess with, so that's 3 experimental builds per level, and its been shown that there are respec recipes for sale within the game that, while pricy, are available.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
1. Terrible idea.
2. Terrible idea. You are easily one of the worst posters on this forum because your contribution in threads can be summed up like this: Learn2play. At least GG lays out some compelling arguments from time to time. Respecs need to happen more commonly to increase interest in the game in my opinion. |
I'm not a big fan of copying-to-test-just-to-try-a-power, so I'll exclude that one. Others have mentioned it.
So, what would it take to make you happy?
Would increasing respec recipe drops to the point that the price stabilizes at 5-10 million inf?
How about reducing the Alignment Merit costs to 2 hero merits, rather than 10?
Your comments here make it seem as if you'd prefer "respec" to be as common as an inspiration drop, and you really do seem to believe that you're absolutely right that this is just an artifact of bad MMO design, like old permadeath, that should just go away.
Others don't share your view. I know people that have never used a respec and never cared about it one whit. They certainly wouldn't share your enthusiasm in such a brilliant new feature. I also know people that have studied game design and community building and the psychology that goes into building player investment into your game that will tell you that there's much more going for encouraging character stability while offering limited- but attainable- ways to reinvent yourself. There's value in making it both goal driven and a decision with some gravity, and many people see and appreciate that.
There's still a lot of room where we can meet in the middle. Many people seem to believe that respec recipes are worth the 100m inf that they go for now, as they do seem to sell rather regularly, but I'm sure there aren't too many that would object to an increased drop rate, provided they don't become as value-less as the "wings" recipes.
Me? I barely respec enough to use the freebies given out with most issues. Heck, I alt so much that I barely get to log in all my characters between issues. If they'd give us those free respecs as respec recipes, I'd happily max out the inf on every one of my characters selling those things off. They're not as valuable to me as they are to you- but I do prefer they remain limited in availability.
I'd be happy enough to keep things as they are but add an "undo my last level" that would take you back to just enough XP to ding and then let you re-pick that most-recently-taken power (or re-place those slots). It'd be great for when I try a power that just does not fit a character as I'd hoped, and since I'd generally realize this within 2-3 missions after leveling, the lost XP wouldn't be so bad.
Other than that tweak, I'm rather happy with the system.
I've yet to find a way to so totally screw up a character while leveling that he's unplayable. So, the need to "respec at any time" - I dont see it.
The game has respec trials, not that hard to do, and you'll usually find a full group of people willing to do one.
And I've yet to see any other game that doesnt have some cost associated with respeccing - it's never free.
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Hmm are you sure you want standard respecs?
You say you like to play characters without being pidgeon holed into styles.
Well...that's kind of what the ATs are, there's very little way you can completely screw one up apart from being a Mastermind with no pets...that's like, rule 1 on building a character unless you going for a 'Manly Man' Blastermind build.
Heck even the 'Manly Man' builds usually contribute something (Blasterminds less so..a lot less).
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I actually can't tell whether you're trolling or not.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
1. Terrible idea.
2. Terrible idea. You are easily one of the worst posters on this forum because your contribution in threads can be summed up like this: Learn2play. At least GG lays out some compelling arguments from time to time. Respecs need to happen more commonly to increase interest in the game in my opinion. |
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Using the Vet rewards still feels disingenuous to me, as an excuse to avoid rebalancing respecs. Not every player is going to have them all the time, the new player (by extension, the one that's most likely to need them) doesn't have them, etc etc.
| the Vet rewards |
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We can't win this argument. The OP wants unlimited respecs, period. Nothing can persuade him otherwise including the availability of the respec recipe at the consignment house.
Some people like to tweak their character continuously. For me I'm extremely cautious when I respec because there is always something, no matter how well I plan (yes I use Mid's), there is always something that goes wonky. I still haven't bothered to respec my 50 for Fitness and now we also have early access to APPs (at least I'm told that) and travel powers plus an additional power.
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I don't play very many different MMOs, so I can't speak to the 'most' comment, but I know at least one MMO which allows unlimited respecs, at any time (so long as you're not in an instance), without having to pay any real or fake money. You can even change your secondary when you respec, given certain conditions. Let's call it ***ld **rs, developed by ***na*et, and produced by a familiar company.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
I'm sure most if not all do not let you respec any time you want. At least MMOs.
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As for respecs in this game, all I can say is that the only time I've ever felt the need of extra respecs was when I was first starting out, and I saw an oooold guide recommending 6-slotting Hasten (joining the game around I8). At that point, purchasing a respec was impossible, for inf or for cash, and I had trouble finding a team willing and able to complete the Terra Volta trial. (I did try it once, and failed.) But even with the errors in my build, I could play the game just fine, and eventually I was able to get through a respec trial, and I could get freespecs, and vetspecs, etc.
Now that I know the game, I have very little need to respec (besides the automatic respec at 24 for soldiers/widows). The last time I even used a freespec was when the Incarnate trials were released, so that my MM henchmen could compete better. And I'm pretty sure the freespec I used had been awarded two years (or more!) prior. So now I've got respecs falling out my ears, and I can't imagine using them up.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I do find this very frustrating. I like experimenting, and CoH's very limited supply of respecs punishes experimentation. I can't think of a build, do the math, and then try it for a few days to see whether it works in practice the way I thought it would in theory, unless I feel like spending a hundred mil or waiting for freespecs. So I tend to have conservative builds that I know are probably fine, and not try powers that I might really enjoy but which some people say aren't good choices, because if I pick a power that turns out to be useless, I'm stuck with it.
It's definitely a negative part of my experience. I'd probably mind a lot less if respecs were cheaper, such as if more of them dropped. (And I do think that the increase in number of respec recipes sold would make up for the decrease in inf sink per recipe.)
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It is possible to do that? I thought it made you take a pet power at level 1.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Well...that's kind of what the ATs are, there's very little way you can completely screw one up apart from being a Mastermind with no pets...that's like, rule 1 on building a character unless you going for a 'Manly Man' Blastermind build.
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At level 1, you select from your first two primary powers. The first two powers in every Mastermind set are the minion henchman summon, and a single-target ranged attack. So yes, you can skip your pets on a Mastermind if you choose to.
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Originally Posted by Cake
It is possible to do that? I thought it made you take a pet power at level 1.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
There's also the fact that if you could respec literally any time you wanted to, you would be able to have a limitless character, capable of speccing into a situational power like Group Fly during the mission you need it in, and then spec back out of it once you no longer need it.
I don't think I need to explain why the devs would likely frown on that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I don't know if I'd say that. I was here, and I didn't like that.|
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
When the game was launched, there were NO respecs- and we liked it that way.
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But I'm pretty satisfied with the way it's been working of late.
These days, I pretty much get everything I need out of per-issue respecs. While some of my oldest characters used their "Respec Trial" respecs, most new ones never use them, only running those trials for badges (especially the hero one, which is stupidly boring).
I like my characters fixed. I don't want to change them all the time. As Chase mentions, I feel strongly that my characters are individuals, and their powers (and AT) fit into that sense of individuality. If their powers were constantly changing, that part of their identity would cease to become "them".
Despite that, I do change them when there's something to be gained in terms of new powers or enhancements or something like that. The respecs we're granted with new releases usually coincide with changes of this sort, so using one of them is normally sufficient for my needs. I also normally have one banked, so that if I screw up my new build I can use the most recent "freespec" to fix it. I have never actually had to do that, however. I don't plan my builds while sleepy, distracted or tipsy, so I usually don't mangle them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm drowning in respecs over here, to the point I only use them to unslot things when I feel like moving IOs from one toon to another. I claimed my enhancement unslotters last night just so my email wouldn't be red, but not after a long "looooooooooooooooooooool why would I ever use those?"
I'll trade you respecs for tailor tokens. 
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Outside of Guild Wars which lets you fiddle outside of missions as much as you like (worth noting it wasn't always like that though), the other MMOs I've played are severely restricted or just don't allow it at all.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
I hate to say this, but this is a big fail on your part. I'm guessing that you don't like to play any games then, as I'm sure most if not all do not let you respec any time you want. At least MMOs.
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Ragnarok Online was basically the worst. There was no form of respec or do-over of any kind whatsoever for years and years. If you misclicked or didn't look up an out-of-game skill prerequisite reference sheet (the game itself gave you no clues) you were stuck with it forever or just had to make a new character. And this is in a game with like 30 classes and like 250+ stat point assignments and 100+ skill point assignments per character.
These days I think they allow you to redo your skills or a small chunk of stats at a time (20 of the 250 at a time), but only for real money and with a time limit or something. So I guess it could be worse: you could have to pay real money to respec.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Wow, excellent. |
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
1. Terrible idea.
2. Terrible idea. You are easily one of the worst posters on this forum because your contribution in threads can be summed up like this: Learn2play. At least GG lays out some compelling arguments from time to time. Respecs need to happen more commonly to increase interest in the game in my opinion. |
"I bought this fancy mixer at the store. So I tried to make a cake, and, who needs a recipe - I just put in 'some' flour, and 'some' sugar, and 'some' eggs... but the cake SUCKS!
...
I'm gonna call the Mixer Company, this damned MIXER IS BROKEN AND NEEDS TO BE FIXED!"
Perhaps reading the vast storehouse of information that is provided to you free of charge here on the forums (for no money) by the players of this very game, after they have played these archetypes for YEARS themselves, and have been kind enough to take the time to organize into a coherent index of information (and ain't not chargin' you a dime for it)
might be something to look into.
Or, with all due respect, there's the wall, and you may continue to beat the head there, if that is your whim.
WhiteHotFlash solved your problem for you. If you do not want that solution, asking for more respecs actually is not the answer.
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Good post.|
Originally Posted by DarkWalker
In a nutshell: restrictions on how often I can respec are the big reason why I can't play this game for any long stretch of time.
I mostly love this game. I've tried to play it a few times across the years, I love some of the concepts, I really like how the direction Paragon is taking the game. But, for whatever reason, I can't stand to play any MMO where I can't respec any time I want. The first time I want to respec and find I can't - or I get stuck when leveling because I can't decide how to spec, given that changing my decision in the future will be either hard or impossible - I simply leave the game. It's what happened 3 times already with CoH; I try to play, make a new character (as I can't bring myself to play my old characters), but in a few days I end leaving in frustration because I either can't decide how to distribute my slots and powers, or else I find I really want to change my spec. This last try, I ever tried adding 4 months of game time at a time, to see if the larger money investment could make me stick. It just meant I wasted money, since I played for a week or two and abandoned the game just after. None of the ways to obtain respecs are actually enough for me. The respec recipes are simply too expensive, the free respecs too few and far between, and respecs are one thing I would rather leave the game than purchase in the cash shop (since I consider them about as essential for my enjoyment of the game as, for example, being able to resurrect my character). . |
Respecs are must in a world of IO's, IO set bonuses, and Incarnates.
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You can earn at least four (or is it seven?) of them even before you count the freespecs they give out just about every issue now, and vet ones. How many do you need?
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Good post.
Respecs are must in a world of IO's, IO set bonuses, and Incarnates. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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H?
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Have you considered preparation?
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That was sarcasm, just read it in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't know if I'd say that. I was here, and I didn't like that.
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Aha. It needed an exclamation point then. He always sort of yelled that phrase. |
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
That was sarcasm, just read it in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I don't want to assume anything because that is dangerous, but have you done test builds before? Either on Mids or the test server? I'm just asking because when I do get the urge to respec my main, I always copy that character over and do a test run there. The downside is that you need to have all of your IOs or sets ready to go (meaning crafted) before you copy because there's usually not enough salvage/recipes on the market to complete the build you have in mind. Another option might be your alternate build if you do not have that one already occupied.|
Originally Posted by seebs
I do find this very frustrating. I like experimenting, and CoH's very limited supply of respecs punishes experimentation. I can't think of a build, do the math, and then try it for a few days to see whether it works in practice the way I thought it would in theory, unless I feel like spending a hundred mil or waiting for freespecs. So I tend to have conservative builds that I know are probably fine, and not try powers that I might really enjoy but which some people say aren't good choices, because if I pick a power that turns out to be useless, I'm stuck with it.
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That being said, I haven't used the majority of my respecs free or otherwise. I have been at the free respec cap on my main for a couple of issues. If I could hand them out to other players I would.
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Fair enough. I think the overall combination of how this game manages powers and archetypes, including respec, is reasonable, but more importantly that's why we have different games: different games will appeal to different people. The same thing is true with archetypal limitations: CoX and CO prove you can build two different games with the opposite design philosophy here and you will find neither to be considered universally superior to the other among all players of both games. That's primarily a matter of personal preference: I can explain what effect the design choice has on different preferences, but not why people prefer the two choices: its just personal.|
Originally Posted by DarkWalker
Games that restrict respecs are just not for me.
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On the other hand:
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| BTW, unless you want the game to cater to a very small niche, a MMO better be fairly easy; most of the players out there are casual and not very skilled players, who will change games as needed until they find something they can enjoy a reasonable degree of success. Does not mean everything in the game needs to be easy, just that even an unskilled player needs to feel like he isn't forever stuck, like he can accomplish things. |
Some people have mentioned Guild Wars. That game is substantially different from most MMOs including this one in that the PvE game is subservient to the PvP game. The level cap is low and easy to reach, the PvE game is mainly there as a past time when not PvPing, and characters are essentially PvP weapons. In such an environment the notion of alting and PvE replay value are far lower than in City of Heroes. Here, the game is designed around the foundational principle that your *build decisions* are actual game play; they have consequences the player has to deal with no different than combat or mission completion. Respecs offer a balance between being permanently locked into a build and having unlimited discretion to change things in that environment that is not necessary in GW. That's what makes GW predominantly irrelevant as an example for respec for games more like CoX. The attitude towards respec evolved in GW in a certain way because of their focus, and not just because of an arbitrary realization that was a universally better way to deal with respecification.
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Two things pop out at me:
1) You're not taking advantage of all the ways you can work builds without having to commit to them, like second/third builds, or the Test Server.
2) There are numerous threads showing players how to build characters for various playstyles, there are threads explaining how to make Inf in the market, and other threads that make this game very easy to play. If you don't desire to follow any of that advice, I can honestly say you're playing the wrong game for your idea of fun. There is no shame in that.
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