The best "who would win if they fought" idea I've seen in a while...
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2011-09-02 02:22 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
What does "destroy" Rome mean... If we're talking the city that would take an afternoon
If we mean take out all the legions it depends how smart the marines are and how the Romans react.
I the Marines have to rack down all the Legions they are going to lose. Their electronics and vehicles won't last long enough to do it. they'll run out out of bullets before they get through all 250,000 Romans and a lot of their other arms would become too heavy to march around with.
The Romans are pretty smart so any weapon left lying around like would eventually happen would likely get back engineered a bit and they'd start forging bullets themselves. I have little doubt in this because they'd likely had seen eastern gun powder devices and it probably would take much to put the two together.
The Marines would likely start picking up some of the armor simply cuz it's more effective in some of the circumstances they are in.
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Yes, giving the Marines the advantage of knowing where they've appeared and who they're going to face is...well, handing them a huge advantage.|
Originally Posted by BeornAgain
While I appreciate the total destruction of the Roman forces, this is not a "we shall choose the field of battle" scenario. The Marines were dropped into a space/time continuum thing and are, understandably, shaken. Then again, Imperial Romans are staggered by seeing helicopters as well, but it IS their backyard.
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They shouldn't automagically get to know the lay of the land immediately without satellites. I'm doubtful they could even recognize the enemy forces for what they were right off the bat just by looking at their armor, let alone even know where the capitol was relative to them to bombard it. Or even what part of the world they were in.
Even if the commander has studied Roman warfare that doesn't make him an expert or mean he remembers all of it. There's no guarantee he had his text books on his person to refer to.
No, the Marines have to be dropped into this with just the relevant equipment and no special knowledge or intel. They have to logically set up a base of operations before they can do anything.
Otherwise, if you're going to send the Marines through a portal, ready and prepared to fight Romans on their own terms, they'd just send a nuke through and that would be that.
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It would also take an afternoon. Seriously. Air superiority is no joke. You could fly anywhere in the empire in three hours and scatter any legion to the winds with strafing and bombing runs. The survivors wouldn't want to fight such a foe *ever* again. They don't know that the marines will run out of fuel soon - the damage is already done: The sky chariots can come any time you assemble an army and smite it with Zeus's own lightning.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
What does "destroy" Rome mean... If we're talking the city that would take an afternoon
If we mean take out all the legions it depends how smart the marines are and how the Romans react. |
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| I the Marines have to track down all the Legions they are going to lose. Their electronics and vehicles won't last long enough to do it. they'll run out out of bullets before they get through all 250,000 Romans and a lot of their other arms would become too heavy to march around with. |
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| The Romans are pretty smart so any weapon left lying around like would eventually happen would likely get back engineered a bit and they'd start forging bullets themselves. I have little doubt in this because they'd likely had seen eastern gun powder devices and it probably wouldn't take much to put the two together. |
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| The Marines would likely start picking up some of the armor simply cuz it's more effective in some of the circumstances they are in. |
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Don't need to study roman warfare.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Yes, giving the Marines the advantage of knowing where they've appeared and who they're going to face is...well, handing them a huge advantage.
They shouldn't automagically get to know the lay of the land immediately without satellites. I'm doubtful they could even recognize the enemy forces for what they were right off the bat just by looking at their armor, let alone even know where the capitol was relative to them to bombard it. Or even what part of the world they were in. Even if the commander has studied Roman warfare that doesn't make him an expert or mean he remembers all of it. There's no guarantee he had his text books on his person to refer to. No, the Marines have to be dropped into this with just the relevant equipment and no special knowledge or intel. They have to logically set up a base of operations before they can do anything. Otherwise, if you're going to send the Marines through a portal, ready and prepared to fight Romans on their own terms, they'd just send a nuke through and that would be that. . |
Run the entire enemy force over with a tank.
Nothing the Romans can muster could damage the treads, and nothing the Romans can do can pry open the vehicle's hatch. Just run people over until morale breaks.
Tanks were OP when they first took the field in the 20th century. They're nothing but pure 'hax' in the first century.
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You forget that Rome is a very big area and the Legions are camped all around it. No matter what you do you are going to have to hit one side then fly to the other. and that takes a lot more fuel than they'd likely have.
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Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
It would also take an afternoon. Seriously. Air superiority is no joke. You could fly anywhere in the empire in three hours and scatter any legion to the winds with strafing and bombing runs. The survivors wouldn't want to fight such a foe *ever* again. They don't know that the marines will run out of fuel soon - the damage is already done: The sky chariots can come any time you assemble an army and smite it with Zeus's own lightning.
No, they won't. Aerial recon provides each legions position and approximate numbers. Vehicles get the marines to the legion more than 10 times faster (30 miles a day for the legion, 30 miles an HOUR in bad terrain for a humvee or APC). Once again an enemy that displays in the first month the ability to find you no matter where you stage and strike at you before you're even aware they've mobilized would be an insurmountable morale route for the legions. You can't forge modern weapons without modern tools. Any low tech knockoff the legions might be able to cobble together will be unable to penetrate modern ballistic armor, nor have the range to even try. And marines don't leave their weapons lying around a battlefield. See The Rifleman's Creed First century armor is never more effective than 21st century armor. |
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No I didn't. At it's height I think the empire only had a dozen legions. The marines have 25 aircraft. A day to scout the entire empire, a few hours after that to hit the camped legions. It would only take one attack craft a piece to 'pacify' a legion.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
You forget that Rome is a very big area and the Legions are camped all around it. No matter what you do you are going to have to hit one side then fly to the other. and that takes a lot more fuel than they'd likely have.
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How, exactly, are you dropping an entire MEU on Rome without the resources to establish a beachhead? If you've got all those marines and equipment assembled in one place (no small logistical feat), and they're going through the portal device on purpose, they're going to take as much fuel and ammunition with them as they can. If you're having the ships carrying the MEU randomly hopping through the portal, they'll still have enough.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
You forget that Rome is a very big area and the Legions are camped all around it. No matter what you do you are going to have to hit one side then fly to the other. and that takes a lot more fuel than they'd likely have.
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-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade! Their beachhead would be Rome itself. Assuming they were dropped in Italy in the morning they could be there by the afternoon, and force its surrender by bedtime. After that it's just a matter of routing legions as they come home or try to make nuisance of themselves by attempting a siege.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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The reforms of Augustus reduced the legions from 50 (less than full strength after the civil warfare) to 28. Reduced again to 25 after 'that incident in Germany'. I cannot remember the later reforms.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
No I didn't. At it's height I think the empire only had a dozen legions. The marines have 25 aircraft. A day to scout the entire empire, a few hours after that to hit the camped legions. It would only take one attack craft a piece to 'pacify' a legion.
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That said, I'm bored of the entire exercise. It wouldn't be a contest. Interesting, but not a contest.
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I've been reading this with interest. I do have a couple questions though.
What's the terrain like in Ancient Rome? Yeah, the Romans were master road builders, but would their bridges be able to support the weight of modern military weapons?
Given the military's propensity for fighting the last war, are we going to be sending heavy fuel hog machines when something lighter and faster and more fuel efficient would probably do the job better?
How much maintenance do today's weapons require? And how much of modern military action depends on things like GPS, the internet, and satellite communication that won't be available in the past?
I don't honestly know. I'm just curious. 
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While modern military does use all those things like GPS, internet, satellited communication, in this situation they'd get by with regular hand held radios.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
I've been reading this with interest. I do have a couple questions though.
What's the terrain like in Ancient Rome? Yeah, the Romans were master road builders, but would their bridges be able to support the weight of modern military weapons? Given the military's propensity for fighting the last war, are we going to be sending heavy fuel hog machines when something lighter and faster and more fuel efficient would probably do the job better? How much maintenance do today's weapons require? And how much of modern military action depends on things like GPS, the internet, and satellite communication that won't be available in the past? I don't honestly know. I'm just curious. |
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One factor that seems to be ignored is history itself. Today's military leadership study Roman battles of yesteryear to learn not only the strategies and tactics used by Roman commanders to defeat their enemies, but also how the Romans reacted and adapted to sudden changes in the tactical situation and overcame them, or failed to overcome them, and why. And this is at the academic level, so even junior officers are well aware of what a Roman legion is capable of in depth and breadth.
The Roman commanders, however, are up against an absolute unknown. The initial engagements would be absolutely horrific losses for them, and they'd be up against an enemy that has a very good chance of accurately predicting what they will be doing next.
"Know yourself and know your enemy. Then you will own the field of battle." - Sun Tzu
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actually, it's been mentioned a couple of times
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Originally Posted by Alpha-One
One factor that seems to be ignored is history itself. Today's military leadership study Roman battles of yesteryear to learn not only the strategies and tactics used by Roman commanders to defeat their enemies, but also how the Romans reacted and adapted to sudden changes in the tactical situation and overcame them, or failed to overcome them, and why. And this is at the academic level, so even junior officers are well aware of what a Roman legion is capable of in depth and breadth.
The Roman commanders, however, are up against an absolute unknown. The initial engagements would be absolutely horrific losses for them, and they'd be up against an enemy that has a very good chance of accurately predicting what they will be doing next. "Know yourself and know your enemy. Then you will own the field of battle." - Sun Tzu |
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I was seeing it as a more covert operation. Throw some small pox blankets or some vials of black plague or tuberculosis. Maybe send them some diseased and dead ppl to them like in the movie red cliff.
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I was hoping this would be an Asterix scenario. Except replace the Gauls with magic potion that gives superpowers with the Marines.
Basically you give the Marines a base in a village in northwestern Gaul near the coast, and for some reason Caesar himself is ticked off at that particular village and wants it conquered as soon as possible. Multiple legions (six, if I remember right) are stationed around the village and will all advance on the village regularly, but not all at once. Basically when Caesar gets angry or a general wants to make a name for himself by defeating that pesky village in Gaul.
The question then becomes, can the Marines match the feats of Asterix and friends? Can they hold the village indefinitely? Or at least for five years? Going on the offensive is allowed, but the objective is survival, not conquest, and if the village falls, to Rome or anyone else when the time is up, the mission is lost. (As the return portal will open in the village.)
They get all the same resources, with enough fuel to keep each vehicle going for 30 days each and so on.
I like this scenario more, because a decapitation strike on Rome with a starting point in Italy is just playing everything into the Marines' hands. That's what they do. Hit fast, hit hard, go home. It's a much better match if the objective becomes Hold Position instead of Conquest and that they start on the far edge of the Roman Empire. I'm thinking that for long term, it'd be good to perhaps be a bit more diplomatic than the usual approach, which leads to an interesting question: Can any of the Marines speak Latin?
I'm fairly sure the Marines can hold out, but Operation Getafix* is a better setup than the "destroy Rome" objective.
*Getafix is the druid in Asterix that makes the magic potion.
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I'd still give it to the Marines.|
Originally Posted by McNum
I was hoping this would be an Asterix scenario. Except replace the Gauls with magic potion that gives superpowers with the Marines.
Basically you give the Marines a base in a village in northwestern Gaul near the coast, and for some reason Caesar himself is ticked off at that particular village and wants it conquered as soon as possible. Multiple legions (six, if I remember right) are stationed around the village and will all advance on the village regularly, but not all at once. Basically when Caesar gets angry or a general wants to make a name for himself by defeating that pesky village in Gaul. The question then becomes, can the Marines match the feats of Asterix and friends? Can they hold the village indefinitely? Or at least for five years? Going on the offensive is allowed, but the objective is survival, not conquest, and if the village falls, to Rome or anyone else when the time is up, the mission is lost. (As the return portal will open in the village.) They get all the same resources, with enough fuel to keep each vehicle going for 30 days each and so on. I like this scenario more, because a decapitation strike on Rome with a starting point in Italy is just playing everything into the Marines' hands. That's what they do. Hit fast, hit hard, go home. It's a much better match if the objective becomes Hold Position instead of Conquest and that they start on the far edge of the Roman Empire. I'm thinking that for long term, it'd be good to perhaps be a bit more diplomatic than the usual approach, which leads to an interesting question: Can any of the Marines speak Latin? I'm fairly sure the Marines can hold out, but Operation Getafix* is a better setup than the "destroy Rome" objective. *Getafix is the druid in Asterix that makes the magic potion. |
Walking by foot is still something Marines are trained to do. Sniper Rifle in hand, they're still able to take out the important individuals.
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I'm more worried about the fact that the Marines need to boil all their water, and they probably can't eat any food but what they brought with them. Also consider the morale difference. The Romans are fighting for their home and their loved ones. The Marines have to be thinking that they'll never see home or their loved ones again.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
While modern military does use all those things like GPS, internet, satellited communication, in this situation they'd get by with regular hand held radios.
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The fiction writer is correct that there'll be a rash of suicides in the Marine camp.
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Maori did suffer casualties, but nowhere near the levels that British Colonial and Regular forces anticipated. Maori refused to engage the British in open combat wherever possible, adopting raiding and ambushing tactics, and relying on defensive fortified Pa to draw the British into pre-arranged killing fields. The British would typically shell a Pa with artillery and then send in their forces, assuming that the bombardment would have killed or wounded the majority of defenders inside the Pa.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
You should take a look at the New Zealand Wars. The smaller force was disadvantaged technologically and yet consistently won the battles without casualty.
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Much to their chagrin, not only did the shelling prove ineffective (Maori entrenched themselves in bunkers underground) but as soon as the British troops entered the defensive network of the fortified Pa, they were subjected to co-ordinated musket, rifle, and shotgun fire from trenches and hidden positions. The defending Maori would slip away at a pre-determined time (where possible) and fight another day.
One of the major weaknesses was that Maori fought warfare on a seasonal basis. Warriors went to war for x number of months, and then were required to harvest crops, and prepare for the next season.
The other was that a poorly prepared Pa without proper escape routes could become a death-trap for the defenders rather than the attackers.
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Conversely, the Marines could end up fighting all the harder, because hey, what have they got to lose? If they're never going home then there's nothing holding them back from trying really crazy plans.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I'm more worried about the fact that the Marines need to boil all their water, and they probably can't eat any food but what they brought with them. Also consider the morale difference. The Romans are fighting for their home and their loved ones. The Marines have to be thinking that they'll never see home or their loved ones again.
The fiction writer is correct that there'll be a rash of suicides in the Marine camp. |
Whereas the Romans are fighting for their families, true, but they also want to get home again. Meaning they aren't, essentially, an animal backed into a corner.
How about a trio of Predators against the entire Roman Empire? Eh? Eh?
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Well, being an honorably discharged Marine I'll take a stab at this.
Rather than argue which would win; I think I'll just say how I would plan the tactics for the Marine side of the equation.
First of all, the numbers are daunting but what is even more problematic is how those numbers are spread out over most of Europe and the Mediteranean. Chasing each Legion down individually or taking each city would be an incredible waste of resources. So, I don't do that.
The first thing I do is take Rome itself. This is the heart of the Empire and the symbol of its right-to-rule. With the Emperor taken out and the Senate disbanded, I immediately ALLOW Roman messengers and loyalists to leave the city en masse with the hopes that news of the fall and the otherworldly... almost godly... nature of the force that took it will spread.
I do this for one big reason... a good number of the cultures under Roman rule were not particularly happy about their governors. Once these less-than-satisified protectorates hear the invincible empire has been injured and the emperor is dead, they will likely consolidate their forces inside their own borders and declare their independence from the Empire. I would guess roughly half of them would do this and I think I'm being conservative in that estimate.
While the various political factions were deciding who was marching to re-establish the empire and who was waiting for the dust to settle to better know where their personal advantage lay, I would be re-landscaping the terrain surrounding Rome. While Roman generals certainly knew about lanes of fire and the like, they could not possibly comprehend the range of the weapons they'd be facing. My Marines would set up thick fence works and deep trenches interspersed with toe popper mines and other small anti-personnel mines, the whole layered with lines of razor wire. Between these pie pieces of hell I would have nice open and easily travelled roads that were just wide enough to allow ten men abreast to march through.
I would set up machine guns nests trained on these roads. I would also set a tank to each road with explicit instructions not to fire at anything that wasn't a siege engine. The rule of the day would be ammunition conservation, at least during those initial assaults. Shock and Awe, folks. Once again, I would mow down those who insisted on approaching the city, but I would allow anyone who turned to run away to escape. Not only would this allow me to conserve my ammo, but it would continue to let a steady stream of information about the destructive power of my Marines to leak out into the former Empire.
It wouldn't be long before other cultures and countries began to renege from their shattered empire. I would allow diplomats to approach my outer fortifications if they wished to discuss mutual non-aggression pacts. They would not be allowed in the city proper, but they WOULD be witness to the miracle of radio communications. I would make signing such agreements VERY lucrative and profitable to those countries. After all, I hold control over the riches of Rome. I'm not there to set up shop or improve the lots of the people. I'm there to disband and destroy the Roman Empire. I would make it very clear to all parties involved that it was a first-come, first-served basis. If they wanted the choicest loot, they needed to get on-board early.
The resulting feeding-frenzy/race-to-riches would likely be stupendous to behold.
Finally, once I had my "allies" securely numbered and listed. I would make one final offer... Aid and sustain my troops as I march out to take out the few remaining hold-outs and I will reward their help by giving them the lands so conquered. I would promise my staunchest supporters the city of Rome itself... once I had removed myself back to my proper time line, of course.
All things considered, I think I could count on resentment of their former conquerers and basic human greed to do most of my work for me.
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Edit: Nevermind, Steelclaw said it better, except he forgot about using the knowledge the Marines bring from the future to educate the locals and improve their science and technology.
A typical MEU has approximately 2,200 Marines and sailors. It is equipped with:
4 M1A1 main battle tank
16 Light Armored Vehicle
15 Amphibious Assault Vehicle
6 155mm howitzer: M198 or M777
8 M252 81mm mortar
8 BGM-71 Tube Launched, Optically Tracked, Wire Guided (TOW) missile weapon system
8 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile
6 AH-1W SuperCobra attack helicopters
3 UH-1N Twin Huey utility helicopter
12 CH-46E Sea Knight medium lift assault helicopter
4 CH-53E Super Stallion heavy lift assault helicopter
6 AV-8B Harrier jet
2 KC-130 Hercules re-fueler/transport aircraft
2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit
1 LMT 3000 water purification unit
4 Tractor, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering
2 TX51-19M Rough Terrain Forklift
3 D7 bulldozer
1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck
4 Mk48 Logistics Vehicle System
7 500 gallon water containers
63 Humvee
30 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement trucks
A standard USMC MEU would have little trouble reshaping the history of the world if they were dropped back in time 2,000 years.
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I find this amusing because Durakken has another thread where he's wondering if a single average person could create a modern civilization from scratch but he's doubting the capabilities of a highly trained and motivated MEU and what they could accomplish.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Let's try to settle this with a little bit of "role play"
Helicopter is likely the largest vehicle going through right? so how much clearance would a helicopter need and how low to the ground could it be... that gives us a "portal size" Does the portal make noise? where is it located? is it visible? I would say that even if the portal doesn't make noise any machine coming through will make noise... I would say if they could place the portal it would be slightly north of Medolanum on this map http://resourcesforhistoryteachers.w...ire_1_A.d..jpg So... the portal opens the Marines start coming through... What happens? Well the first this is likely some people would see what's going on and within a little bit of time a messenger would be sent to the closest Legion. That legion would like react and meet at Medolanum... If i remember a legion can march like 30 miles in a day... So at this point is a legion close enough to set up by the time the Marines are ready to do anything How would the Romans and Marines act? Also would the Marines start off with the goal of taking over an holding or would they be peaceful at first and who would act first? |
The thing I don't get is what is the Marines motivation for attacking the Romans? They have the advantage of future knowledge. They can easily set up shop somewhere isolated (like North America) and train and educate the locals with their superior knowledge of science and technology.
I'd expect this scenario to play out like Predator, except the Romans have a huge weaponry disadvantage.
If we really wanted this to be a massacre...send Master Chief, Chuck Norris, MacGuyver and Action Hank