The best "who would win if they fought" idea I've seen in a while...
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Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2011-09-02 02:22 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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The scenario said that the Marines win if any of them sit on the emperor's throne. As soon as you take Rome, you've met your victory condition.|
Originally Posted by Steelclaw
The first thing I do is take Rome itself.
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As I said before, the Marines would take this in a walk if they began the campaign as soon as they appeared. Every day they delay means more legions in Rome, more suicides in the Marine camp, more water-borne diseases, less fuel and less food. If the Marines delay a week then the outcome is in doubt; if they delay a month then the Romans will win with little trouble.
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Except they never made it across the Rhine... at least not without getting chopped to pieces |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
The Romans were one of the deadliest warfare machines in history, unstoppable in every direction in the map.
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I think you overstate the cost of delays markedly. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
As I said before, the Marines would take this in a walk if they began the campaign as soon as they appeared. Every day they delay means more legions in Rome, more suicides in the Marine camp, more water-borne diseases, less fuel and less food. If the Marines delay a week then the outcome is in doubt; if they delay a month then the Romans will win with little trouble.
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More legions are only a concern if ammo is a concern. The amount of grass a lawnmower can take down is limited by the dulling of the blade. Marines are not morons, so water-borne diseases is not a valid concern. People have posted on the nature of Marine procedures in this regard.
I really doubt suicides are likely to be as big an issue as you claim.
Logistics is really the only concern, and if sitting on the emperor's throne is it, then I don't really see an issue. As long as they don't fret away their fuel and ammo, they are golden.
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Having worked with all of our military branches as prior Army and a civilian, Id venture to say that Marines are some of our more disciplined men/women, both on and off of the battlefield. (I say this not wanting to get into a discussion of which service is sturdier, more motivated, better trained etc because they all shine and play thier role in the concept of operations). I could be underestimating the #s some are looking at as far as projected suicides, defections/breaking of the ranks and overall sedition focused at the command...but I don't see it being as high as some in the thread may think. Sure, some of that is to be expected, especially considering this whole time travel scenario.
I think you have to either be in the armed forces or a prior service member/family member to understand that there really is a fundamental difference between the way the minds of most military personnel work compared to their civilian counterparts (generally speaking). As far as Marines leaving en masse to search for a religious personality, real or not, I don't see that happening either as the command is going to be focused on setting up current and future operations in a foreign/hostile environment and even the basics of that type of work is extremely taxing, time consuming and very difficult overall. I doubt Marines will have the time or much of the inclination to figure out where to go, how to get there and what they will do once they did or didnt find Jesus or the "Jesus-like figure".
As far as Marines vs Romans...even if the Marines have a reduced slice of combat power reference artillery, mortars and the like on top of everything else a combat element is supposed to have attached to it, itll be a solid victory for the Marines.
**EDIT**
Had to go to the store and during my mindless/droning walk up and down the isles...this scenario popped back into my head. Talking about Marines "going crazy", running off, conducting suicide pacts etc...what about the Romans? How many of these soldiers would lay down their weapons, commit suicide or flee at the sight of this technology that resembles the gods coming to their doorstep with flying steel dragons and men in armored beasts? Seems like the Romans would break from morale failure way sooner than our Marines.
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One of my favorite comments on this on the actually website discussing this is something along the lines of.
"Seriously, all you'd need is a Helicopter and some Goats, have it hover above the Roman Commanders tent and drop said goats on it, they'll think it's the work of the Gods purely on the basis of this strange flying thing just killed their Commander with Goats. To be honest if I was a Roman and my commander was killed by 'Skygoats' I'd be a little conscerned."
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Don't forget the biggest danger of time travel. Kill the wrong Roman and half of the marines could vanish due to ancestor existence failure.
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A lot would depend on how you define "defeat the Roman Empire". The Marines would be hard pressed to occupy the Empire; they'd have to cover territory from Britain to Egypt, and from Morocco to Turkey. |
Originally Posted by Demobot
Could a fully-equipped Marine Expeditionary Unit defeat the entire Roman Empire?
While the show Ultimate Warrior makes historical comparisons of individual combatants that are roughly contemporary to each other, what happens when you take a small number of technologically advanced warriors and pit them against a technologically inferior but numerically overwhelming force? |
Now, the Romans didn't really have a law of succession, and respected military prowess for its own sake. After a decisive victory over a legionary force that demonstrated superior US technology, the Romans may well tell the Marines, "OK. You be emperor. Pick somebody." This was, after all, how emperors tended to be selected during the empire itself. There were few entirely peaceful successions. Has the Roman Empire been defeated then? I hope somebody in the Marines had high school Latin.
I see this more like a Manchu/Mongols vs. China scenario. The Manchu handily defeated China to found an imperial dynasty. That dynasty was almost entirely assimilated to Chinese culture. They "won" but not really. The mandate of Heaven: the gods must be in favor of whoever is winning.
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Originally Posted by SkullThuggery
Don't forget the biggest danger of time travel. Kill the wrong Roman and half of the marines could vanish due to ancestor existence failure.
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There was a lot more politics to it, but in general the Romans followed whoever appeared to have the strongest hand and didn't piss them off too much. Caesar effectively took control of the Roman Empire with a lot less firepower than a MEU would have. I think its clear a MEU could have won essentially any decisive battle fought in the history of the Roman Empire but of course we have to presume the MEU was in a position to secure control of the empire from a willing populace. Otherwise, the MEU might never lose, but it wouldn't be able to win either given the enormous size of the empire at the time. They would constantly be under threat from rebellions started hundreds or even thousands of miles away.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
A lot would depend on how you define "defeat the Roman Empire". The Marines would be hard pressed to occupy the Empire; they'd have to cover territory from Britain to Egypt, and from Morocco to Turkey.
Now, the Romans didn't really have a law of succession, and respected military prowess for its own sake. After a decisive victory over a legionary force that demonstrated superior US technology, the Romans may well tell the Marines, "OK. You be emperor. Pick somebody." This was, after all, how emperors tended to be selected during the empire itself. There were few entirely peaceful successions. Has the Roman Empire been defeated then? I hope somebody in the Marines had high school Latin. I see this more like a Manchu/Mongols vs. China scenario. The Manchu handily defeated China to found an imperial dynasty. That dynasty was almost entirely assimilated to Chinese culture. They "won" but not really. The mandate of Heaven: the gods must be in favor of whoever is winning. |
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Not being a doctor myself, I'm under the impression that a lot of the innoculations and immunities we enjoy are against the versions of the diseases that exist now. That the diseases from a hundred years ago, let alone two thousand years ago are likely different enough from their modern counterparts to be a serious problem. Take influenza for example, there are hundreds of different strains of influenza running around now and they have to guess as to which version to innoculate people against every year. None of these versions even vaguely match the versions that would have been running around Rome at the time.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
The food and water thing is a definite possibility. But it also cuts both ways. The Marines wouldn't (probably) be immune to the various bugs and nasties that could be found in the local food supply, because let's face it, hygiene wasn't a very strong suit in that era. The locals would also not have immunity to the bugs that the Marines would invariably carry.
However, tipping point would probably go to the Marine medics and docs as they would have some knowledge on how to go about treating food poisoning and the like. |
Over the short term, who cares? Most of these things would take a week or more to incubate, I think, and the way this scenario is set up it will be over in a week.
The question I have, would the Marine unit actually attack? Yeah, they've been dropped into this scenario, but what makes them believe the mysterious voice telling them to attack the Romans? What's stopping them from allying with the Romans, and building a *better* Rome?
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Yeah, but the Marines carry antibiotics, and the strains that would exist in the Roman world would not be resistant. Doesn't do anything for viruses, of course, but having modern sanitation, treated water and antibiotics would mean that the advantage in disease resistance is definitely in the Marine's favor. Having access to Navy corpsmen who know a thing or two about modern medicine isn't a bad thing, either.
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Originally Posted by WildClaw
Not being a doctor myself, I'm under the impression that a lot of the innoculations and immunities we enjoy are against the versions of the diseases that exist now. That the diseases from a hundred years ago, let alone two thousand years ago are likely different enough from their modern counterparts to be a serious problem. Take influenza for example, there are hundreds of different strains of influenza running around now and they have to guess as to which version to innoculate people against every year. None of these versions even vaguely match the versions that would have been running around Rome at the time.
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Modern people have a different understanding of what gods are. A religion might spring up, but more than likely the romans would view the Marines as humans endowed the an evil god's power, or evil gods that they need to kill.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
**EDIT**
Had to go to the store and during my mindless/droning walk up and down the isles...this scenario popped back into my head. Talking about Marines "going crazy", running off, conducting suicide pacts etc...what about the Romans? How many of these soldiers would lay down their weapons, commit suicide or flee at the sight of this technology that resembles the gods coming to their doorstep with flying steel dragons and men in armored beasts? Seems like the Romans would break from morale failure way sooner than our Marines. |
In which case it turns the Roman defense into a holy war
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It's not exactly true about viruses though...|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Yeah, but the Marines carry antibiotics, and the strains that would exist in the Roman world would not be resistant. Doesn't do anything for viruses, of course, but having modern sanitation, treated water and antibiotics would mean that the advantage in disease resistance is definitely in the Marine's favor. Having access to Navy corpsmen who know a thing or two about modern medicine isn't a bad thing, either.
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Virus evolve and change over time, but so does our immune system. It's highly possible that a lot of our viral descendants are enough of a match that our immune systems just ignore them, but it's also possible that we carry a ton of super strong pathogens that Europe, Asia, and Africa have literally 0 immunity to due to our advanced medicine making them stronger + them coming from America + us having a global civilization.
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Say what?
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Modern people have a different understanding of what gods are. A religion might spring up, but more than likely the romans would view the Marines as humans endowed the an evil god's power, or evil gods that they need to kill.
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You suggest with this post that this is something that is even feasible. First of all, if this Marine unit is dropped down in Italia circa the first Julians, then nobody in the area is going to have a clue who this Yeshua is. Who cares about some rabble rousing Jew in Iudaea or Syria or wherever the heck he is? Heck, it's doubtful even Augustus or his heir Tiberius would have known or cared. That is what governors are for, and they know what to do with troublemakers. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
1) I think not waiting to find out is kinda foolish. We're talking a confirmation on a part of a religion that could change your destiny and how you think and act.
2) It only takes a few to go off the deep end and after one breaks the probability of others breaking rises and as more break so too do that probability of more. I thought I covered this... if people found it to be true and actually understood the meaning of it being true is it would lead to them being followers or in cases like me they'd have almost no change other than a laugh that "hey at least they're vindicated in saying I'm going to hell" Actually, becoming like Judas should be considered a good thing. Judas was loyal and he was given the task of selling Jesus out because he was the most loyal and the most understanding of why it needed to happen. He didn't betray anyone. He was given a mission that any other disciple would not have been able to follow through on. He's the good guy in the story despite what the churches feed people. I think just the fact that the opportunity exists and someone would point it out would be enough to screw with the Marines. Some would rebel and some would desert and some would try to mutiny. I think that a like thing to happen pretty quickly and the longer the stay the longer the idea will fester. |
So then the curious from this unit go to find him? How? Just hang out around Jerusalem for a few years until some schmuck shows up and starts ranting about money changers? And then wait for the whole arrest, and trial, and crucifixion and resurrection.
Of course, most theologians and historians are generally accepting of the existence of the historical Rebe Yeshua in some form or another, so final confirmation wouldn't mean anything one way or another. So why should that rock their world? And the existence of Christ doesn't prove hell one way or another; Jewish teaching, and this is what Christ would have taught as a rabbi, focused on the conception of Gehenna rather than the supposed home of a fallen angel.
And if these Marines ARE practicing Christians, they wouldn't fit in all that much with these folks either. They were, after all, just another bunch of Jews, and the traditions and practices of modern Christianity barely existed; the Bible as these Marines know it wouldn't be written for another few centuries.
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Heh, as I read this several M*A*S*H flashbacks started occurring for me. Well done, sir!
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Originally Posted by Steelclaw
I can't say that the Essential Steelclaw didn't exist back then... after all... I wiled away the post-war-waiting-for-evac-back-to-the-states time by engaging in an extended practical joke war with a Corporal that ended up with him comm-wired to his cot and slid under the three seats of the two-by-four and plywood built outhouse where the catch-barrels usually sat.
I heard he's still looking for me. Heh. |
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The corpsmen would need some knowledge on how to go about producing antibiotics and meds once their initial supply runs out. It's not really all that difficult once you learn how. I mean, one of my ChemII lab assignments in college was to produce aspirin (or acetominophin or whatever, it was equivalent to aspirin) within a 3 hour lab time. It wasn't tough, but you needed to know the stuff to go about it.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
Yeah, but the Marines carry antibiotics, and the strains that would exist in the Roman world would not be resistant. Doesn't do anything for viruses, of course, but having modern sanitation, treated water and antibiotics would mean that the advantage in disease resistance is definitely in the Marine's favor. Having access to Navy corpsmen who know a thing or two about modern medicine isn't a bad thing, either.
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I learned how to make Penicillin in high school.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
The corpsmen would need some knowledge on how to go about producing antibiotics and meds once their initial supply runs out. It's not really all that difficult once you learn how. I mean, one of my ChemII lab assignments in college was to produce aspirin (or acetominophin or whatever, it was equivalent to aspirin) within a 3 hour lab time. It wasn't tough, but you needed to know the stuff to go about it.
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It's just Durakken. Just run everything he says thru your KittyKrusader filter. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Say what?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
It's just Durakken. Just run everything he says thru your KittyKrusader filter.
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As a duly designated representative of the City, Province, and Empire of Rome, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place of origin, or to the next convenient parallel dimension. And take your flying steel dragons and armored riding beasts with you.
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I dont know man...have you ever seen what a 155millimeter artillery round does to a crowd of people or vehicles? These are the rounds commonly used in Iraq, daisychained together for roadside bombs. Check out youtube and search for "Iraq VBIEDs".|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Modern people have a different understanding of what gods are. A religion might spring up, but more than likely the romans would view the Marines as humans endowed the an evil god's power, or evil gods that they need to kill.
In which case it turns the Roman defense into a holy war |
Holy war or not, I think once a barrage of these land on the Romans and takes out a few thousand soldiers in the course of 30mins, its a wash. Evil gods, nice gods, gods playing Benny Hill music etc. I dont think the Romans would live long enough to do much except say some prayers before pounding sand. I'm not even going to consider rotary wing aircraft, tanks, APCs and other vehicle platforms with heavy guns putting holes/shrapnel into mass formations of Romans in the matter of a few minutes.
You need people to wage a holy war...a few highly motivated soldiers with ineffective weapons/armor/shields isn't going to play out very well.
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Again, I'm not convinced the Marines would even bother attacking the Romans in force. It's not like Marines don't have their own compliment of nerds and geeks throughout the command structure. The second they figure out time travel has occured, I think they're more likely to pull back for a 'command-level' rethink and evaluation
Afterall, these are not stupid people. Stupid people don't get promoted in the Marines. Stupid people get their people killed without benefit, which kinda halts promoton prospects in the modern military. Smart Marines will want to know *exactly* what's going on, and what effect they are having. They are going to recon, and attempt to question natives.
In a unit that size, it is entirely possible there will be a couple of Marines who can speak and/or read Latin. Which means that with a lot of effort on both sides, communication is possible. (Living Latin as actually used by the common man being sufficiently different from Classical Latin as taught in schools that the communication will not be easy.)
This is not to say that they won't end up fighting Romans. Just that there is a lot more going on than 'Marines automatically shoot anything that moves.'
Also, the Romans legions have a good compliment of smart people in them as well. Unlike what movies and what-not teach, just because they existed two thousand years ago does not make them naturally stupid. We are not naturally any smarter on average than they were. When Roman legions ran into people who had better tech/tactics than they did, they didn't try to steamroll them, they tried a variety of non-military tactics to co-opt them. Celtic cavalry and ironsmiths, goth mercenaries, eastern bowmen, all got hired on/incorporated into the Roman empire. Because the Romans were experts with a skill that isn't based on tech/tactics. Making good-sounding deals. Given half a chance, I think the Romans would rather make a deal with the Marines than try to fight them.
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This is much more likely and believable.
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Originally Posted by WildClaw
Again, I'm not convinced the Marines would even bother attacking the Romans in force. It's not like Marines don't have their own compliment of nerds and geeks throughout the command structure. The second they figure out time travel has occured, I think they're more likely to pull back for a 'command-level' rethink and evaluation
Afterall, these are not stupid people. Stupid people don't get promoted in the Marines. Stupid people get their people killed without benefit, which kinda halts promoton prospects in the modern military. Smart Marines will want to know *exactly* what's going on, and what effect they are having. They are going to recon, and attempt to question natives. In a unit that size, it is entirely possible there will be a couple of Marines who can speak and/or read Latin. Which means that with a lot of effort on both sides, communication is possible. (Living Latin as actually used by the common man being sufficiently different from Classical Latin as taught in schools that the communication will not be easy.) This is not to say that they won't end up fighting Romans. Just that there is a lot more going on than 'Marines automatically shoot anything that moves.' Also, the Romans legions have a good compliment of smart people in them as well. Unlike what movies and what-not teach, just because they existed two thousand years ago does not make them naturally stupid. We are not naturally any smarter on average than they were. When Roman legions ran into people who had better tech/tactics than they did, they didn't try to steamroll them, they tried a variety of non-military tactics to co-opt them. Celtic cavalry and ironsmiths, goth mercenaries, eastern bowmen, all got hired on/incorporated into the Roman empire. Because the Romans were experts with a skill that isn't based on tech/tactics. Making good-sounding deals. Given half a chance, I think the Romans would rather make a deal with the Marines than try to fight them. |
1) Even if they thought to look, what makes you think they wouldn't wait to find answers. Get the job done first, then if that doesn't get them home, they can go and look.
2) Right or wrong. Doesn't mean suicide or getting reckless. Plenty people of faith lose their faith and don't become reckless/suicidal about it. Those who gain a new faith if found to be true would then what? Not become a Judas to their fellow soldiers and finish the task at hand.
As mentioned, this is one grasping at straws. Not to mention, we living in the now, have no idea if it's true or not (outside of one's faith) so putting that into the equation, I don't think works.
But if you do, refere to the above. They decide their faith is wrong. Then go on living to make a lasting impression another way. Taking out all those Romans, and changing history, with their names in the books! \o/
2) It only takes a few to go off the deep end and after one breaks the probability of others breaking rises and as more break so too do that probability of more.
I thought I covered this... if people found it to be true and actually understood the meaning of it being true is it would lead to them being followers or in cases like me they'd have almost no change other than a laugh that "hey at least they're vindicated in saying I'm going to hell"
Actually, becoming like Judas should be considered a good thing. Judas was loyal and he was given the task of selling Jesus out because he was the most loyal and the most understanding of why it needed to happen. He didn't betray anyone. He was given a mission that any other disciple would not have been able to follow through on. He's the good guy in the story despite what the churches feed people.
I think just the fact that the opportunity exists and someone would point it out would be enough to screw with the Marines. Some would rebel and some would desert and some would try to mutiny. I think that a like thing to happen pretty quickly and the longer the stay the longer the idea will fester.