The best "who would win if they fought" idea I've seen in a while...
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2011-09-02 02:22 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
While I appreciate the total destruction of the Roman forces, this is not a "we shall choose the field of battle" scenario. The Marines were dropped into a space/time continuum thing and are, understandably, shaken. Then again, Imperial Romans are staggered by seeing helicopters as well, but it IS their backyard.
As long as the Marines remember the ol' "volley fire" concept so while one reloads the other lays down a field of fire, then the Romans will never get within 500 yards of the Marine camp. At that range, only the Catapults will be able to reach anything at all, and you are correct about the mortars, though a few Barretts would make the "Wrath of the gods" come from 3 miles away.
However, should a squad or two forget that they are fighting real, disciplined troops with undoubtedly more CQC experience than any modern Marine and think they are playing a video game, there will be casualties.
Nothing wrecks a battle plan quicker than stupid.
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You should take a look at the New Zealand Wars. The smaller force was disadvantaged technologically and yet consistently won the battles without casualty.
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Originally Posted by Lycanus
some of the above didn't have near the difference in technology we're discussing and yet the smaller force won consistently (might have some issue with the German v Russians, but the turn back happened as Russian tech got better)
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There is, I think, one thing we are forgetting about...
The Marines, or their commanders at the very least, have the Roman play-book.
Every major Roman victory from Carthage to Milvian Bridge and every defeat to the Sack of Rome has been studied, dissected, evaluated and synthesized countless times.
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The world record for longest arrow shot is 500meters. That's just firing it for distance. And that's using a better bow than the Romans had access to.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
No... but one of their common strategies was to have shields up with pole arms on one side stick out and then when the other side charged they ran right into the polearms...
The whole march forward till your face to face thing was the western version of Samurai honor. Basically, instead of being "barbaric" they constructed all these rules of war and it got to a point that is more about the show and rules than it was about winning. Back in Roman times they marched in lines and such but it was only to a point and when the phalanx strategy was likely to fail they adapted. Roman archers could shoot between 100 and 300 yards... Greeks were said to have an effective range of between 64 and 600 meters... so I think the Romans could get a bit further than 300 yards honestly. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7175754AAJQ2v4 M16 has an effective firing range of 500-800 meters. So Romans have half to 1/8 the effective range. Roman Ballistas had much higher range but was most effective at 500 yards The fact is that snipers and guns have limited ammo and even if you hit all the targets with your spread fire you're not going to being able to pick off 50,000 men before they reach their effective range which will surely kill you or severely damage your gear/vehicles... and even if you do you're not going to do it 50+ times even if you are perfect shots. Romans would likely take out a Humvee fairly easily used in that way... Ballistas, trebuchets, catapults, greek fire, etc, etc, etc... they could easily be used to counter much of current war fare's weapons and again the marines are fighting with gear that is designed for bullets, not rocks, arrows, traps, whatever. And their fighting styles are very much for taking on those opponents too... when you take that into account the Romans have the advantage of supply, experience, defense, and numbers, while the Marines more or less have only modern tech on their side. Could the Marines win in an extended fight? Possibly. It's a matter of how well they adapt, how quickly they could establish a base, could they get food, could they resupply, would they pick up on the Roman warfare... and can they do it before their numbers are such that they could do it and before marines start giving up or finding an easier way out. Also it is a matter of what their goals are... if it's just to kill all roman soldiers then they aren't going to win. If it's to destroy the country... that'd be a quick afternoon... if it were to take over the country and maintain control THAT would be where it gets interesting. |
Javelin throw was 98.48 meters. That's using a Javelin designed to be thrown far. Roman armies used a Javelin designed for penetration, at the sacrificing of distance, but to be fair they didn't need as much range. Considering the Romans used a throwing dart with an effective range of 30m, and that was farther than their Javelins, I think you're over estimating the range the Romans would have versus a modern military.
M16 effective range is 550 meters, but can go farther though be less accurate.
Do you really think the Roman's shields and armor is going to withstand all those rounds?
Then there's the Sniper Rifles, with longer range, and the sniper taking them out one by one before the Roman's even get in range of the M16s.
And then you're forgetting all those other long range weapons the Marines have at their disposal. Like the 8 FGM-148 Javelin. Use of one of those will put some scare into the Romans, if not scare some serious damage.
Now let's think the Romans get into range of the Marines. Before they're in hand to hand range, the Marines are throwing grenades!
And to think the Humvee couldn't take some ancient weapondry? o.O Those Humvees would be playing hit and run on those Romans in no time.
You're also forgetting the Howitzers they come equipped with! Range of 30KM! Roman's wouldn't even see the Marines from that distance.
Then there's the nice ability of the Marines having the ability to fight at night from range.
The Marines would walk over that Roman army. Humvees, Tanks, Helicopters, long range weaponry. The fight would be over before the Romans even knew they were in one.
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Or the one who saw it would be wetting themselves as they thought the gods have arrived.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Let's try to settle this with a little bit of "role play"
Helicopter is likely the largest vehicle going through right? so how much clearance would a helicopter need and how low to the ground could it be... that gives us a "portal size" Does the portal make noise? where is it located? is it visible? I would say that even if the portal doesn't make noise any machine coming through will make noise... I would say if they could place the portal it would be slightly north of Medolanum on this map http://resourcesforhistoryteachers.w...ire_1_A.d..jpg So... the portal opens the Marines start coming through... What happens? Well the first this is likely some people would see what's going on and within a little bit of time a messenger would be sent to the closest Legion. That legion would like react and meet at Medolanum... If i remember a legion can march like 30 miles in a day... So at this point is a legion close enough to set up by the time the Marines are ready to do anything How would the Romans and Marines act? Also would the Marines start off with the goal of taking over an holding or would they be peaceful at first and who would act first? |
This was an ancient civilization that believed in the gods. Out comes this huge flying monster making loud sounds.
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Some possible losses. Sure. You're still forgetting Marines have the range advantage. In their weapondry.|
Originally Posted by BeornAgain
Pitched battle, open land - Marines will win, but sustain heavy losses (you can reload only so fast, and the concept of death was different to Legionaires than to modern man, insofar as sense of self is not as finely tuned and men of the Legions felt that it was their duty to follow orders and die)
Siege, Romans entrenched - Marines will break through defenses with some losses Siege, Marines entrenched - Romans will starve the Marines into either making a break or preemptive strikes on Roman defensive emplacements Pitched battle, broken field - Marines win handily. Tanks and humvees will survive where horse and chariot falter. This is NOT a slam dunk. The fighting trim of a Legionaire places them on the same level as a Marine. The same training programs and the same PT, even similar amounts to carry on patrol. Do not forget that Serpentines, Ballista, Catapults, Siege Towers, Boiling Pitch/Flaming Oil (something the Marines have no counterpart since the Geneva convention) and significantly superior numbers of superbly trained, if crudely equipped, soldiers makes this as dependent upon the ability of the Colonel as it does the fighting trim of the Marines. The Marines would win, under most any circumstance. But, if one thinks that they're all going to survive with nothing but scratches, dysentery, and a profound sense of accomplishment, one would be gravely mistaken. There is a REASON Roman military tactics are STILL taught in modern times. |
Helicopters alone can fly outside the range of any arrows and just lay down area fire.
You're right, there is a reason Roman military tactics are still taught, the Marines have the tactic of aerial support!
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You guys are forgetting that a lot of modern tech does rely on modern telecommunications and electronics...
And not to mention that even if they had a goal of doing x they'd still be a bit lost considering most americans don't have a clue about maps and history.
I would proceed to reenact this scene and declare myself emperor.
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we're not talking about "most Americans"...I've heard enough from family to know that map mistakes in the marines get you thoroughly chewed out|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You guys are forgetting that a lot of modern tech does rely on modern telecommunications and electronics...
And not to mention that even if they had a goal of doing x they'd still be a bit lost considering most americans don't have a clue about maps and history. |
and mortars don't require any of that...nor do claymores...or sniper rifles...or humvees
the fact is you have to keep piling on limits for the Romans to even have a chance
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That's another huge advantage on the side of the Marines. They are likely to know the Roman War Machine like the back of their hand..|
Originally Posted by BeornAgain
There is, I think, one thing we are forgetting about...
The Marines, or their commanders at the very least, have the Roman play-book. Every major Roman victory from Carthage to Milvian Bridge and every defeat to the Sack of Rome has been studied, dissected, evaluated and synthesized countless times. |
The Romans, on the other hand, have no such knowledge towards the Marines. Not to mention the weaponry is unlike anything they could probably comprehend.
The initial encounter(s) would go very poorly for the Romans.
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no I've said that if the goal is just to decimate the entire country it would be easy...|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
we're not talking about "most Americans"...I've heard enough from family to know that map mistakes in the marines get you thoroughly chewed out
and mortars don't require any of that...nor do claymores...or sniper rifles...or humvees the fact is you have to keep piling on limits for the Romans to even have a chance |
If the goal is to conquer and hold it's an entirely different game.
Also as far as range and ammunition...
IT's been stated that the ammunition is roughly 2 bullets per roman in their millitary. That may seem reasonable at first but the more bullets you waste the more you don't kill. The longer you stay the more you lose the tech advantage because power drains and once the power drains you have to rely on the same thing the Romans are. If you're on the run or hope to maintain things you're going have to explain concepts and those will get out and you'll have to deal with rebellions and such depending on how you conquer...
Quite Frankly the best strategy would be to fly into the capital and send one Marine to land in front of the Emperor and a sniper get a good bead on him and then put on a show pretending that the Marine meeting face to face blows the emperor's head off magically...
that's probably the best way to do it, but i doubt the marines would do it.
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I mentioned this as "completely alien tactical doctrine in the hands of someone that's studied their tactical doctrine extensively"
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Originally Posted by Primantiss
That's another huge advantage on the side of the Marines. They are likely to know the Roman War Machine like the back of their hand..
The Romans, on the other hand, have no such knowledge towards the Marines. Not to mention the weaponry is unlike anything they could probably comprehend. The initial encounter(s) would go very poorly for the Romans. |
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This is a marine expeditionary unit we're talking about, right? They would do neither. An MEU is a quick-response integrated combat unit. If they were *ordered* to take out the Roman legions, they would use their superior firepower and maneuverability to completely destroy any Roman army fielded against them. They would not become a static target for a hostile force to attack.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Ok would the marines establish the nearest city as a base or would they go directly to rome?
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The enormous advantage the MEU would have that the Romans would not have that BeornAgain and others mentions is that the MEU would know what sort of tactics the Romans would try to use against them, and they would know how other armies in the past neutralized those strategies. The Roman legions would learn eventually, but historically it took years for them to figure out how to regroup and respond to new threats. They aren't going to have years against an MEU focused on destroying them.
It comes down to the MEU commander. If the MEU has Normal Schwarzkopf commanding it, a student of military history and excellent modern strategic planner, the MEU wins even if Hannibal Smith is commanding the legions and BA Baracus was his lieutenant. If its commanded by someone that is not a good combat field commander, the MEU might do something stupid and end up on someone's trophy wall.
I would still place my money firmly on the MEU commanded by any reasonably competent Marine combat commander.
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I assume we're talking a daytime fight, too. 'cause with night vision and camouflage, the Marines would rule the night.
Also another thing about the Romans. Despite Hollywood depictions, the Romans were not a consistently equipped fighting force. The armor of the individual soldier would vary depending on personal expenditures, what the government might provide, or what your general might be willing to bestow on you.
Regarding Marine body armor: so it can deflect a bullet. Would not their gear also have to prepare for bayonet or long knife? Assuming yes (and they're not just trained to dodge) then spear and short sword of iron might not be as effective.
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Holding would be just as easy.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
no I've said that if the goal is just to decimate the entire country it would be easy...
If the goal is to conquer and hold it's an entirely different game. Also as far as range and ammunition... IT's been stated that the ammunition is roughly 2 bullets per roman in their millitary. That may seem reasonable at first but the more bullets you waste the more you don't kill. The longer you stay the more you lose the tech advantage because power drains and once the power drains you have to rely on the same thing the Romans are. If you're on the run or hope to maintain things you're going have to explain concepts and those will get out and you'll have to deal with rebellions and such depending on how you conquer... Quite Frankly the best strategy would be to fly into the capital and send one Marine to land in front of the Emperor and a sniper get a good bead on him and then put on a show pretending that the Marine meeting face to face blows the emperor's head off magically... that's probably the best way to do it, but i doubt the marines would do it. |
To think the Marines wouldn't use the "We are gods" approach is silly.
Go in, "Declare I am a messanger of the gods" *snipe emporer in the face as you unleash a rain of fire upon them *long range fire/explosives" watch as everyone bows down.
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You're forgetting all they'll need is short wave radios for this engagement.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
You guys are forgetting that a lot of modern tech does rely on modern telecommunications and electronics...
And not to mention that even if they had a goal of doing x they'd still be a bit lost considering most americans don't have a clue about maps and history. |
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even without the we are Gods....they can take out entire leadership structures with pretty much impunity|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Holding would be just as easy.
To think the Marines wouldn't use the "We are gods" approach is silly. Go in, "Declare I am a messanger of the gods" *snipe emporer in the face as you unleash a rain of fire upon them *long range fire/explosives" watch as everyone bows down. |
a lot is made of the legionaire but with the number 11,000 there, you're including a ton of conscripts as well
besides, the original article is asking "could I destroy" not "could I conquer" or "could I take over"
and so far everybody has said "if the goal is just to decimate the entire country it would be easy" in one way or another
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To be fair, by the time of Augustus, the Legions were mostly blooded, professional soldiers. The original mentions 24 B.C., does it not?
Augustus had just returned from 3 years of warfare subjugating the various tribes to the north. His legions were fresh with rest, but still sharp from the recent campaigns. 3 years before that he and Marcus Agrippa had routed Marc Antony and Cleopatra's forces causing them both to commit suicide.
Augustus was no great shakes as a military strategist, but he had good commanders and he almost always listened to their advice.
Still, I forgot the whole "fighting at night" thing...
The Marines could, if the whole of the Roman Army were dispatched against them, obliterate the better part of the Italian peninsula in a week.
This most one sided battle since Bambi VS Godzilla
Romans were spiffy for their hayday, but this over 2 thousand years of difference in technology. The fact they know everything about their target and their target knows nothing about them doesn't help. Snipers pick off all easily IDed officers if they just want to crush their morale. Fat chance the grunts are going stick around without their bosses holding them accountable. That's if they are trying be sporting.
The fact you are giving them armor, and air support...this just silly. The marines will die of old age long before the romans would ever get them.
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That's if the marines let them get close. NOT going to happen. Mows them down and has some casualties. Mostly guys stubbing their toes.|
Originally Posted by BeornAgain
Pitched battle, open land - Marines will win, but sustain heavy losses (you can reload only so fast, and the concept of death was different to Legionaires than to modern man, insofar as sense of self is not as finely tuned and men of the Legions felt that it was their duty to follow orders and die)
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| Siege, Romans entrenched - Marines will break through defenses with some losses |
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| Siege, Marines entrenched - Romans will starve the Marines into either making a break or preemptive strikes on Roman defensive emplacements |
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| This is NOT a slam dunk. The fighting trim of a Legionaire places them on the same level as a Marine. The same training programs and the same PT, even similar amounts to carry on patrol. |
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| The Marines would win, under most any circumstance. But, if one thinks that they're all going to survive with nothing but scratches, dysentery, and a profound sense of accomplishment, one would be gravely mistaken. |
Essentially what'd have to happen is the marines would have to be literally dropped into the middle of the massed legions of Rome with no warning for this to be even a close fight.
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| There is a REASON Roman military tactics are STILL taught in modern times. |
Only a damn fool would even DREAM it'd be anything other than a one-sided slaughter with the Marines doing said slaughtering.
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Guys..guys....
Stop encouraging the people that have no realistic idea of how an army (either modern or classic) works. 
There is no realistic situation where, if both sides were allowed their usual compliment of weaponry/personnel, that the modern soldiers wouldn't win decisively. Keep in mind, they also have history on their side. Many books have been written about Roman tactics. Nothing the Romans could do would surprise the Marines in any way.
If you have to handicap the Marines just to make it fair, or give the Romans a chance to win, why have the discussion at all?
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
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This is the internet! It's our job, NO, OUR DUTY, to encourage!|
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Guys..guys....
Stop encouraging the people that have no realistic idea of how an army (either modern or classic) works. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
This is the internet! It's our job, NO, OUR DUTY, to encourage!
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I only hesitate to say that this is a complete and total massacre due to the fact that the marines have a limited supply line. If the depot dropped out of space with them however... The Marines of 2011 would be rulers of western civilization a little under a month. By that I mean, Rome, Gaul, Egypt, Germanic tribes... you name it.
1 Barrett .50 semi-auto sniper rifle could take out every legatus legionis within 5 miles.
Just remember that, all Marines can fire weapons, most Marines can repair weapons, some Marines can manufacture ordinance, but few Marines know how to make their own cordite.
one marine's response to the month of operating fuel for the limits:
"so they can spend 29 days going home"
but yeah, we went over Germans vs Russians circa 1940s, N.Korea/China v Marines in Korean War (Chesty Puller), Zulu Wars, Iraq vs Iran, even Rome vs various nations
some of the above didn't have near the difference in technology we're discussing and yet the smaller force won consistently (might have some issue with the German v Russians, but the turn back happened as Russian tech got better)
also, factoring in the Roman artillery doesn't help....the best trebuchet and catapults have a fraction of the range of any mortars used by the marines and much less mobility and destructive ability as well...
the Romans would be looking for a big honking siege work several stories tall while three guys with a two to three foot tube are shelling them from a couple of miles off
Roman mobility was listed at 30 miles a day...Marine mobility is in the 100s
ancient armies did not operate at night nearly as well as modern ones, and mostly camped for the night
easily identified commanders, lack of mobility, lack of firepower, lack of range, fighting against a completely alien tactical doctrine that has studied your own tactical doctrine extensively
as long as we're talking a straight "can it be done" without any sort of limiting matters, then yes, no question...marines
the mortars alone are enough
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