The best "who would win if they fought" idea I've seen in a while...
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2011-09-02 02:22 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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No... but one of their common strategies was to have shields up with pole arms on one side stick out and then when the other side charged they ran right into the polearms...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
The Marines would have guerilla tactics for one. Didn't the Roman armies kinda line up and moce foward untill the two sides where face to face?
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The whole march forward till your face to face thing was the western version of Samurai honor. Basically, instead of being "barbaric" they constructed all these rules of war and it got to a point that is more about the show and rules than it was about winning.
Back in Roman times they marched in lines and such but it was only to a point and when the phalanx strategy was likely to fail they adapted.
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Next, range. Marines have it. Romans won't even come close to that with their Javelins and their arrows aren't going to match it either. Never mind the Marine Sniper that comes with the group to pick off Romans one by one before they know what's happening. |
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7175754AAJQ2v4
M16 has an effective firing range of 500-800 meters.
So Romans have half to 1/8 the effective range.
Roman Ballistas had much higher range but was most effective at 500 yards
The fact is that snipers and guns have limited ammo and even if you hit all the targets with your spread fire you're not going to being able to pick off 50,000 men before they reach their effective range which will surely kill you or severely damage your gear/vehicles... and even if you do you're not going to do it 50+ times even if you are perfect shots.
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| Never we have the Humvees. 100mph! 100 points for every Roman! That's right! Why even waste the ammo? You can plow right through them! Nevermind the Bulldozers that also have. |
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| Then lets add in modern weaponry! Grenades/rocket launchers! AOE \o/ |
Could the Marines win in an extended fight? Possibly. It's a matter of how well they adapt, how quickly they could establish a base, could they get food, could they resupply, would they pick up on the Roman warfare... and can they do it before their numbers are such that they could do it and before marines start giving up or finding an easier way out.
Also it is a matter of what their goals are... if it's just to kill all roman soldiers then they aren't going to win. If it's to destroy the country... that'd be a quick afternoon... if it were to take over the country and maintain control THAT would be where it gets interesting.
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This could be quite effective, especially when targeting leadership and ranged siege weapon workers that do not understand that their clearly marked armor, and in some cases, formal positioning, will get them wiped out pretty quickly. The troops may be well trained, but there will be coordination problems with the leadership down.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Never mind the Marine Sniper that comes with the group to pick off Romans one by one before they know what's happening. . |
Both sides get AoE, right? catapults and the like on Roman side, grenades, mortars and such on Marine side?
One thing to consider, when saying the Romans can rush the Marine and overwhelm them, is the bodies. There will be a lot of corpses stacking, littering the field. These, in such quantity will create barriers to any organized advance, extending the carnage. Initial carnage will be heavy due to the interlocking shield tactics, which are just begging to be mowed down.
That brings me to the American Civil War. Wasn't this exactly the problem in the Civil War? Modern weapons with old formation tactics. Heavy carnage. The problem there was that both sides had the weapons and the old tactics.
Someone pointed out the Zulu war, another good example. The Battle of Rorke's Drift, as depicted in the movie Zulu, showed the English concerns to be their limited ammo supply. I'm guessing Marines of 130 years later would have that as their one concern when facing 250,000
The Romans could fairly easily and safely confine the Marines by surrounding them and waiting in cover. If the Marines plan to eat, they would have to give up their position and their fortification and move within range of the Roman's where they will not stand a chance.
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Tanks.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
The Romans could fairly easily and safely confine the Marines by surrounding them and waiting in cover. If the Marines plan to eat, they would have to give up their position and their fortification and move within range of the Roman's where they will not stand a chance.
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Mortars.
Helicopters.
They're walling in the marines how?
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Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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By replacing their losses with more men?|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Tanks.
Mortars. Helicopters. They're walling in the marines how? |
If the Marines had a limitless ammo supply or if the Romans were going to be intimidated by the technology and bow down, this thread and this conversation would be pointless. I have to assume those two variables are false.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Unless they had like a million bullets, no.
Even with infinite ammo they'd be hard-pressed. The Romans were one of the deadliest warfare machines in history, unstoppable in every direction in the map. Their numbers were virtually inexhaustible, and they'd quickly catch on to Marine tactics and find a way to kill them, even if that meant throwing thousands to their deaths or adopting scorched earth policies the like of which we have never seen since. If a single marine fell, that would mean a roman packing a firearm, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a legionarie wielding it better than any marine alive. Failing all that, there's always poison, and that was by far their greatest weapon. |
wow, that's so fundamentally wrong that it's staggering. first, the Romans were phenomenal COMPARED to current warfare techniques of the time. the range of modern firearms completely negates any tactics they could call upon, there was nothing in their world that had that kind of range. and their numbers WERE inexhaustible, if you counted the whole of the Roman empires forces.... which, by necessity, where spread throughout the empire, leaving less then you would assume in any one area, unless that area was under immediate contention. and catching on to "tactics" using technology they couldn't conceive of is kinda stretching it, especially in a time where "magic" was readily accepted. a small force of Marines could quite easily cause enough panic and mayhem to get the Romans to retreat, do that a couple of times and they would quite simply cede the area and leave. and the odds of a legionnaire with a firearm killing any marine over say... himself or other Romans is quite honestly ridiculous. lets not forget, Attila the Hun ran an extortion racket on the eastern Roman empire for many many years, as they couldn't beat horse mounted archers, too mobile, with too much range. so lightly encumbered marines with firearms and explosives would destroy them wholesale.
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
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Exactly what I was thinking, especially in the initial encounters, where the Romans would have no idea what they were up against. They'd have a several hundred/(thousand??) yard gap to cover before they would be close enough to use their own weaponry.. That entire spread would be littered with dead soldiers, making the march slow and cumbersome.. All the while getting blown apart by bullet fire.. Their armor would be worthless, and actually slow them down (Though, the Romans would likely catch on to that and go in more lightly armored after a few encounters)|
Originally Posted by Rodoan
One thing to consider, when saying the Romans can rush the Marine and overwhelm them, is the bodies. There will be a lot of corpses stacking, littering the field. These, in such quantity will create barriers to any organized advance, extending the carnage. Initial carnage will be heavy due to the interlocking shield tactics, which are just begging to be mowed down.
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Plus I'm no military buff, but couldn't the marines kind of "Run and Gun"? Where as I'm pretty sure Roman archers had to remain pretty stationary while aiming and firing a bow.
The Roman position did not hold up well in battles of mobility, a battle the Marines definitely bring to the front.
(As mentioned above, against Atilia)
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That brings me to the American Civil War. Wasn't this exactly the problem in the Civil War? Modern weapons with old formation tactics. Heavy carnage. The problem there was that both sides had the weapons and the old tactics. |
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If the Marines stay in one place, sure.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
By replacing their losses with more men?
If the Marines had a limitless ammo supply or if the Romans were going to be intimidated by the technology and bow down, this thread and this conversation would be pointless. I have to assume those two variables are false. |
I was assuming that they'd start moving immediately and roll some tanks down the streets in Rome within a week.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how the Romans can take out a tank, especially one deployed with an infantry screen.
I won't assume that the Romans will be cowed, and I won't assume infinite ammo. I will assume that they're bringing roughly fifty tons of ammunition with them, though.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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So not a chance against modern weapon ranges. Got it. I think we agree.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Roman archers could shoot between 100 and 300 yards... Greeks were said to have an effective range of between 64 and 600 meters... so I think the Romans could get a bit further than 300 yards honestly.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7175754AAJQ2v4 M16 has an effective firing range of 500-800 meters. So Romans have half to 1/8 the effective range. Roman Ballistas had much higher range but was most effective at 500 yards |
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Originally Posted by Durakken
The fact is that snipers and guns have limited ammo and even if you hit all the targets with your spread fire you're not going to being able to pick off 50,000 men before they reach their effective range which will surely kill you or severely damage your gear/vehicles... and even if you do you're not going to do it 50+ times even if you are perfect shots.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Could the Marines win in an extended fight? Possibly.
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Originally Posted by Rodoan
Someone pointed out the Zulu war, another good example. The Battle of Rorke's Drift, as depicted in the movie Zulu, showed the English concerns to be their limited ammo supply. I'm guessing Marines of 130 years later would have that as their one concern when facing 250,000
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Not to mention a conservative ammo total has an MEU carrying well over 250k rounds, just for the infantry rifles in the man carried supplies.
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Honestly. If you limit it to hand-to-hand, yeah. The Romans would likely win eventually.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
If you put the two groups against each other on a field of battle the Roman Empire would win as the Marines have like no defense against the Roman Legions...even though the could probably kill a good chunk of the Roman Army.
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If you're talking "give the Marines their rifles"?
THEN things get more dicey. Now the Roman shields might or might not be adequate protection against 5.56 and 7.62 mm rounds.
Now, grenades (thrown or launched)? The a phalanx attack formation isn't going to do the Romans ANY good there.
Helicopters? Have you SEEN the kind of damage a group of SuperCobras can do? Hellfires? Sidewinders? A FRIGGIN' 20mm GATLING GUN!
Now I refer to Marines as "cannon fodder". But in this situation, they'd win. Plain and simple. Only a ridiculous tactical blunder would make it otherwise.
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Remember the plates in a vest are designed to spread out the force of bullets. Stuff moving at high velocity and with a very small impact area.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
So crazy wrong.
Weapon ranges of thousands of yards - the Romans would never even close to combat. And the comments on the armor... a plate that can deflect or reduce the impact of modern alloy rounds woudn't stop a man shoved piece of low tech metal? |
Honestly I'm not certain what'd happen if you whacked it with the edge of a sword. You'd probably, eventually, snap the plate. And you'd still have a load of blunt force trauma translating through the armor since it's not really designed to disperse that sort of force around and away from the body.
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You're thinking maximum effective range on a point-sized target. Yeah. That's roughly 550m with an M16.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
M16 has an effective firing range of 500-800 meters.
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Maximum effective range on an area (think vehicle sized) target is about 800m.
These both have everything to do with the shooter's ability to sight and hit a target and nothing to do with the actual lethality of the round.
Absolute maximum range (where the bullet is still traveling fast enough to kill a target ) is much greater.
So the Marines don't even particularly need to be aiming at anything. They simply set up a field of fire and pretty much anything walking into it is dead. Plain and simple.
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| Roman Ballistas had much higher range but was most effective at 500 yards |
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| Romans would likely take out a Humvee fairly easily used in that way... |
What does a hummer call a shield wall formation? Speed bump.
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The thing is, a standard MEU has more than enough ordnance to annhihilate the entirety of the Roman legions several times over. |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
By replacing their losses with more men?
If the Marines had a limitless ammo supply or if the Romans were going to be intimidated by the technology and bow down, this thread and this conversation would be pointless. I have to assume those two variables are false. |
2200 Marines
4 M1A1 main battle tank
7 to 16 Light Armored Vehicle
15 Amphibious Assault Vehicle
6 155mm howitzer: M198 or M777
8 M252 81mm mortar
8 BGM-71 Tube Launched, Optically Tracked, Wire Guided (TOW) missile weapon system
8 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile
4 to 6 AH-1W SuperCobra attack helicopters
3 UH-1N Twin Huey utility helicopter
12 CH-46E Sea Knight medium lift assault helicopter
4 CH-53E Super Stallion heavy lift assault helicopter
6 AV-8B Harrier jet
2 KC-130 Hercules re-fueler/transport aircraft
Note: usually maintained in the continental United States
2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit
1 LMT 3000 water purification unit
4 Tractor, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering
2 TX51-19M Rough Terrain Forklift
3 D7 bulldozer
1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck
4 Mk48 Vehicle System
7 500 gallon water containers
63 Humvee
30 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement trucks
If you can tell me that a force armed like this could NOT easily wipe out a sixth of a million men (armed with spears, short swords, and big shields), you'll at least get a laugh out of me.
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Yeah, I can't really see the Romans coming out on top. Their best bet would be to hand over the keys of the empire quickly and hope to take out the Marines once they're drowning in the best booze and whores the Roman Empire has to offer.
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Let's try to settle this with a little bit of "role play"
Helicopter is likely the largest vehicle going through right? so how much clearance would a helicopter need and how low to the ground could it be... that gives us a "portal size"
Does the portal make noise? where is it located? is it visible?
I would say that even if the portal doesn't make noise any machine coming through will make noise...
I would say if they could place the portal it would be slightly north of Medolanum on this map http://resourcesforhistoryteachers.w...ire_1_A.d..jpg
So... the portal opens the Marines start coming through... What happens?
Well the first this is likely some people would see what's going on and within a little bit of time a messenger would be sent to the closest Legion. That legion would like react and meet at Medolanum...
If i remember a legion can march like 30 miles in a day...
So at this point is a legion close enough to set up by the time the Marines are ready to do anything
How would the Romans and Marines act? Also would the Marines start off with the goal of taking over an holding or would they be peaceful at first and who would act first?
by coincidence, my gaming group was talking about how a set of WWII tanks would take out an M1 Abrams
the strat was dependent on the amount of ammunition the M1 could carry and amounted to: send tanks until it runs out of ammo...another tank blows out its engine, the last tank rams it repeatedly until it is out of operation
that was like 60 King Tigers vs 1 M1 Abrams
I doubt going back to things less mobile and efficient would help any
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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I'd expect that the hardest that the blade would be shoved (gladius designed and trained for stab, not slash) would be with less force than that of a modern bullet hit (but I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on TV).
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Remember the plates in a vest are designed to spread out the force of bullets. Stuff moving at high velocity and with a very small impact area.
Honestly I'm not certain what'd happen if you whacked it with the edge of a sword. You'd probably, eventually, snap the plate. And you'd still have a load of blunt force trauma translating through the armor since it's not really designed to disperse that sort of force around and away from the body. |
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Roman swordmanship teaches stabbing around armor rather than through it as well as using the pommel as a striking instrument
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the marines should be ready to do something the moment they're through the portal|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Let's try to settle this with a little bit of "role play"
Helicopter is likely the largest vehicle going through right? so how much clearance would a helicopter need and how low to the ground could it be... that gives us a "portal size" Does the portal make noise? where is it located? is it visible? I would say that even if the portal doesn't make noise any machine coming through will make noise... I would say if they could place the portal it would be slightly north of Medolanum on this map http://resourcesforhistoryteachers.w...ire_1_A.d..jpg So... the portal opens the Marines start coming through... What happens? Well the first this is likely some people would see what's going on and within a little bit of time a messenger would be sent to the closest Legion. That legion would like react and meet at Medolanum... If i remember a legion can march like 30 miles in a day... So at this point is a legion close enough to set up by the time the Marines are ready to do anything How would the Romans and Marines act? Also would the Marines start off with the goal of taking over an holding or would they be peaceful at first and who would act first? |
with the various transport options, Marines can cover hundreds of miles in a day
by the time the MESSENGER reached the first legion, the marines would already be moving and have established positions
by the time the legion was started out their based operations, the marine helicopters would have seen the formations forming up and radioed it ahead
before they even saw the marines, the Roman column would likely be facing a pre-placed claymore ambush followed by distance mortaring
the first legion would take around about 10 minutes of work without any legionairre even seeing a hint of the enemy and with the marines mostly seeing them through binoculars
Really, though, someone has already referenced the Zulu wars.
If the British did it in the late 1800s against the Zulus, where the tech and strategy difference was far less pronounced, then yeah, the MEU would be fine
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Outnumbered but technologicaly superior - see the battle of Roarkes Drift.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
Could a fully-equipped Marine Expeditionary Unit defeat the entire Roman Empire?
While the show Ultimate Warrior makes historical comparisons of individual combatants that are roughly contemporary to each other, what happens when you take a small number of technologically advanced warriors and pit them against a technologically inferior but numerically overwhelming force? |
Ok would the marines establish the nearest city as a base or would they go directly to rome?
We're going to say, as was common practice there was a messenger that left from where ever the legion was to Rome and when the legion was getting it's butt kicked they'd send a messenger out to say what happened
I would guess that a second legion would start marching almost immediately as soon as the messenger got to Rome... And several messengers would be sent to gather the other legions which would all likely converge on either the 2nd or Rome.
also we're taking it from the position that the marines are just randomly hostile and not play any sort of game? They just intend to conquer and hold right?
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modern combat armor is NOT discernible as armor, at least from an ancient roman's point of view. looks like a bulky jacket, hell WWI soldiers wouldn't know that it was armor.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Roman swordmanship teaches stabbing around armor rather than through it as well as using the pommel as a striking instrument
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Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
Seriously, even if the vehicles only had enough fuel for a WEEK it would be enough to get the job done.
The Caesar and Senate fall within the first hour to air to ground bombardment from the Harriers.
Within a day aerial recon of the ENTIRE ROMAN EMPIRE has revealed where each legion is camped. Estimates have been made as to enemy striking strength and mobility. Plans have been made to nullify the numerical advantage - most likely by selective annihilation of enemy leadership. In other words launch a Hellfire into each legion's commander's tent.
At this point the war is over, really, before it even began. WIth the civilian government destroyed and presumably squabbling among who leads now and most military leadership eradicated any counter attack would certainly NOT involve the carefully amassed entire military force of the roman empire. Especially since destroying a few bridges and roads could delay legion reinforcements for months.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Pitched battle, open land - Marines will win, but sustain heavy losses (you can reload only so fast, and the concept of death was different to Legionaires than to modern man, insofar as sense of self is not as finely tuned and men of the Legions felt that it was their duty to follow orders and die)
Siege, Romans entrenched - Marines will break through defenses with some losses
Siege, Marines entrenched - Romans will starve the Marines into either making a break or preemptive strikes on Roman defensive emplacements
Pitched battle, broken field - Marines win handily. Tanks and humvees will survive where horse and chariot falter.
This is NOT a slam dunk. The fighting trim of a Legionaire places them on the same level as a Marine. The same training programs and the same PT, even similar amounts to carry on patrol.
Do not forget that Serpentines, Ballista, Catapults, Siege Towers, Boiling Pitch/Flaming Oil (something the Marines have no counterpart since the Geneva convention) and significantly superior numbers of superbly trained, if crudely equipped, soldiers makes this as dependent upon the ability of the Colonel as it does the fighting trim of the Marines.
The Marines would win, under most any circumstance. But, if one thinks that they're all going to survive with nothing but scratches, dysentery, and a profound sense of accomplishment, one would be gravely mistaken.
There is a REASON Roman military tactics are STILL taught in modern times.
Next, range. Marines have it. Romans won't even come close to that with their Javelins and their arrows aren't going to match it either.
Never mind the Marine Sniper that comes with the group to pick off Romans one by one before they know what's happening.
Never we have the Humvees. 100mph! 100 points for every Roman! That's right! Why even waste the ammo? You can plow right through them! Nevermind the Bulldozers that also have.
Then lets add in modern weaponry! Grenades/rocket launchers! AOE \o/
the Marines would have it. Nevermind the helicopters, that even if it didn't frieghten the Roman's would just make short work of them. Run out of ammo? Bet they could give a few Roman's some haircuts before they knew what was happening.
It's just not a fair fight. It just sounds like the Romans stand a chance, but really they don't. And there's plenty of ways for them to conserve gas/energy to make sure they win it, and it's silly to think they wouldn't if needed.
Which means with the way the Romans line up 1 sniper shooting a .50 cal rifle could kill multiple soldiers in a single shot. There is a good reason we no longer line up in combat.
Have you guys considered the damage an RPG would do to a group of soldiers attempting to do a shield turtle? It would be very bad.
I suggest watching Locked and Loaded on the History Channel. I am not sure how many of you guys the devastation modern weapons can dish out unless you have seen it first hand. As a paramedic I have seen the damage non-military ordnance can do to the human body, and it only gets worse.
Also, a flack vest will stop just about anything the legions used short of siege engines.
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