The best "who would win if they fought" idea I've seen in a while...

Could a fully-equipped Marine Expeditionary Unit defeat the entire Roman Empire?

While the show Ultimate Warrior makes historical comparisons of individual combatants that are roughly contemporary to each other, what happens when you take a small number of technologically advanced warriors and pit them against a technologically inferior but numerically overwhelming force?

Hands down the Marines would win.

Depends on if the marines get a supply line or not.

Unless they had like a million bullets, no.

Even with infinite ammo they'd be hard-pressed. The Romans were one of the deadliest warfare machines in history, unstoppable in every direction in the map. Their numbers were virtually inexhaustible, and they'd quickly catch on to Marine tactics and find a way to kill them, even if that meant throwing thousands to their deaths or adopting scorched earth policies the like of which we have never seen since. If a single marine fell, that would mean a roman packing a firearm, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a legionarie wielding it better than any marine alive.

Failing all that, there's always poison, and that was by far their greatest weapon.

I love the Roman Legions as much as the next history geek, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zemblanity Unless they had like a million bullets, no. Even with infinite ammo they'd be hard-pressed. The Romans were one of the deadliest warfare machines in history, unstoppable in every direction in the map. Their numbers were virtually inexhaustible,

Inexhaustible?
Hardly. At it's largest the trained cadre of the legions had a firmly known quantity. Let's pick, say, early empire.... what 30 legions-ish as the standing force - at least I remember Augustus' reforms putting it at 28. About 5,000 men in a legion, if memory serves? 140,000 men? Inexhaustible, huh?

(edit: ok, a quick search put it at about 50 legions when Augustus took power after the civil wars - assuming they were all at full strength, 250,000. still hardly inexhaustible.)

(further edit: not sure where that article gets its numbers of 11,000 in a legion... must be counting the tail and auxiliaries in the up front count. Still, not much of an exercise.)

Add in the auxiliaries and the numbers would go up.... How much? I don't know, but let's be generous and say 280,000 auxiliaries.

OK, the MEU.
Let's just talk infantry men,... a fast internet search tells me count on about 200 rounds per foot slogger on a normal load. (I think I'd give them a heavy combat load..., but let's not cheat.)

26th MEU has about 2,200 men

That's 440,00 rounds. Single shot at range... more than enough to take out most, if not all, the legions, and their auxiliaries depending on which numbers you use. (edit: yes, max range. If I'm assaulting, I walk up to no more than max and run some target range drills into the massed romans... if defending, nice high ground over open field......)

Not convinced? How about we add in the weapons squads in each platoon - SAWs with 4-6,000 rounds each? Couple of those... a 60mm mortar section....

Not convinced? An MEU likely would have an aviation unit... air power will win you battles against modern forces, let alone a Roman force.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zemblanity If a single marine fell, that would mean a roman packing a firearm, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a legionarie wielding it better than any marine alive.

That last bit is a nice over the top statement.

Romans were melee fighters... with some range in archers, javelins, etc.... the range of the modern firearm? Romans would never get near enough to take that gun. (edit:
Not even considering that the marine chest plate designed to stop modern firearms is going to turn aside a gladius, even if the Romans got close enough.)

What is the victory condition of the combat? Is it...
Roman Empire = Win if they kill the Marine Unit?
Marine Unit = Win if they take over the Empire? or kill the Empire military?

If it's simply to take over the empire... the Marine unit could do it pretty damn quickly and easily... If it was to take out the entire military, they could do it over an extended amount of time but it would take a looooong time.

Sound like somebody desperately wants a tabletop wargame adaptation of Pax Romana.

"this is my boomstick!" - ash

Okay, let's set some terms.

The Marine Expeditionary Unit has access to any and all supplies that are standard issue for it and which it can transport using standard vehicles through a large gateway back to Ancient Rome. They don't get sattelites, air support, extra bodies and whatnot, but they are 'fully supplied' with bullets, bandages and what not. The gateway will not be operable during the exercise: they begin 'fully supplied' but do not get to resupply.

The Roman Empire consists of the capital city and one half mile in each direction, cut off from any support outside that radius, but able to draw upon any and all support within that radius, including slaves and citizens. They do not have access to supernatural figures and implements such as the Spear of Destiny, Christ, or various gods.

Each side is informed as to the terms of the engagement one half hour before it begins: the romans have been told to expect a small force ot technologically superior foes to invade, but not the direction of the invasion or details about modern tech or tactics.

The Marines' time displacement device is in a closed steel container 20 feet per side one mile from the edge of the city in a non-buried location they choose. They 'lose' if they lose 50% of their personnel, or if this device (witht 20 tons not including container) is moved 100 feet from its' location. The Romans are informed of this victory/loss condition, but not the location of the device.

Rome loses if a Marine Officer sits on the imperial throne.

No special forces units or legendary commanders on either side.

Both units are psychologically prepared to fight to the death within reason: they are under orders to take the hill "at all costs", but they have incentive to live to return to family back home, etc.

We will assume Rome is at the height of its' technological/military power, so just before Nero's reign?

annnnd....GO!

For reference, in this game Romans fight superpowers and aliens with the powers of gods. And I see nothing wrong with that.

You do realize that modern military is set to fight against modern military...

Body armor isn't really "body" armor it's more like chest armor and head protection... and it's almost all ranged fighting.

And oh yeah, I don't think modern military uses anything that can stop arrows usually... we have the tech but pretty sure we don't generally use it.

I'd say a small tactical team that goes and takes out the emperor to take over the empire could easily do it if they did it fast and such...

If you put the two groups against each other on a field of battle the Roman Empire would win as the Marines have like no defense against the Roman Legions...even though the could probably kill a good chunk of the Roman Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ulundi

The MEU's problem will be numbers. A single legion outnumbers them 5 to 1. Taking one legion out...possible. Taking out two at once? Unlikely. Three or more? No chance.

While legionnaires will die in droves, the Marines have no means of keeping the Roman army from simply engulfing their position. Once they're being attacked from all sides by such a large number, they will eventually be overwhelmed. Roman Legionnaires are not likely to break and run simply because they are taking heavy losses.

While the Marines can choose a position to prevent that, they have no means of forcing the Romans, who are not tactically stupid, to engage them in that position. The Marines, on the other hand, do not have the option of maneuvering until they can get the battlefield they want, as they have no supply lines. Eventually they have to engage or leave.

The Marines would have guerilla tactics for one. Didn't the Roman armies kinda line up and moce foward untill the two sides where face to face?

Next, range. Marines have it. Romans won't even come close to that with their Javelins and their arrows aren't going to match it either.

Never mind the Marine Sniper that comes with the group to pick off Romans one by one before they know what's happening.

Never we have the Humvees. 100mph! 100 points for every Roman! That's right! Why even waste the ammo? You can plow right through them! Nevermind the Bulldozers that also have.

Then lets add in modern weaponry! Grenades/rocket launchers! AOE \o/

the Marines would have it. Nevermind the helicopters, that even if it didn't frieghten the Roman's would just make short work of them. Run out of ammo? Bet they could give a few Roman's some haircuts before they knew what was happening.

It's just not a fair fight. It just sounds like the Romans stand a chance, but really they don't. And there's plenty of ways for them to conserve gas/energy to make sure they win it, and it's silly to think they wouldn't if needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGWdng1hl0U