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This would be cool. |
Originally Posted by Lucky666
best option make 2 options, one crashes the other doesn't. Once you pick one the other is greyed out like how some SOA powers currently works tech is already there why not.
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I'd definitely support a change to it that lets you take one of 2 options.
Option A) The nukes exactly as they are now, with all the damage and the crash intact.
Option B) A crashless, less damaging nuke on a shorter recharge. The OTHER thing RoA, HoB, and FA have going for them is they recharge faster than the crashing nukes as well. If the other sets were given the option of taking a less damaging nuke that has no crash and recharges in 90 or 120 seconds, it would put them about on par with the sets that already have a crashless nuke.
Maybe they could add a crashing nuke option to the sets that currently have a crashless one as well? Just to even things out. I can't imagine too many people would go for it, but it'd be nice to have that option as well.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The crash makes nuking on defenders practically useless; a defender needs end to defend the team and her/himself. I think I've only used the nuke on my defenders in a handful of special cases where the circumstances meant that my being unable to use any of my defensive powers (from debuffs, to shields, to bubs (especially when dispersion bubble detoggles), to heals) was acceptable.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Why not get rid of the -REC, and have it cost you 20.5 END to cast, with a hit that that drops the rest of your end down to a minimum of 10% END, so you can have END left long enough to pop a blue, without dropping toggles?
I know I don't mind the crash on my Blasters as much as I do on my Defs/Corrs. Blaster = NUKE EM! \o/ Cor/Def = SKIP IT!  *cries* |
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This does not reflect my experience playing blasters with big nukes on a full team. I can wipe out the bulk of a spawn with a nuke, pop a blue, and get right back to contributing damage by helping take out any survivors - if there are any. By the time we get to the next spawn, I'm ready to use my other blasts. No time wasted.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
As things stand I contribute considerably more damage by blasting than I do by nuking, dropping all my toggles, popping a blue and blasting a few seconds until my end bottoms again. The end crash and recovery crash severely limit the utility of a nuke... it drastically cuts my damage output for 20 seconds afterward not to mention leaving me vulnerable once my toggles drop.
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I hope this happens.
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I think it's about time they go back to old powers and powersets and balance specific powers based on AT's need. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This whole question does bring up a nasty problem with balancing crashes. If the risk/reward for crashing was reasonable for defenders, it would probably be far too high for blasters, and vice versa: perfectly balanced for blasters would be worthless for defenders. Corruptors are a somewhat special case for a variety of reasons, including scourge. The average corruptor is not likely to outdamage a blaster with Nova since Nova fires all its damage instantly, but corruptor blizzard can outperform blaster blizzard due to the effects of scourge. That sort of thing makes cross-archetype discussions of balancing these powers tricky.
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If a crash-nuke works well on Defender (the base damage must be really high), then Blaster's version will be super high.
I am still leaning towards a crash-less nuke for Defender/Corr and an even higher true nuke for Blaster. I think those that play Blasters want that "Wow!" and "Boom!" factor more. Defender/Corr can still use the secondary effects from nukes like stuns, -resist, -endurance drain. With exception of Nova... a knockback is a knockback. You can't really stack kb to get more benefits so Nova needs some help. In fact, I think the whole Energy Blast needs a bit more love. Its DPA is kinda too low.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
How's this formula?
10% decrease in damage
50% decrease in endurance crash
No recovery penalty
Decrease in Recharge time of about 25%
This may look dreamy eyed, but let us be honest, with the exclusion of the Fire and Ice Nukes the crash makes other nukes less than ideal. This would bring Nukes in line with where the game and content demands are moving.
That being said, I would also do a similar revamp of the defense "nukes" used by scrappers, etc. Who doesn't get annoyed when that elec armour scrapper has to run away with a trail of mobs coming after him so he can find a safe place to crash?
So, what I am saying is that we need to eliminate or decrease the crashes across the board.
Also, I might mention that a Kin Stalker can get about 500 damage every 30s with BU+Burst out of stealth and has no crash afterwards. While it is not the Batta-bing-batta-boom of a Blaster nuke, it is there for every spawn with no crash, plus it has a chance to double that damage if it crits...
So, it seems that there is a comparable model of a lower damage nuke with higher recharge (15s base) that could be used as an excuse to improve the lives of Blasters and decrease the blaster market for wakies...
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Might be a good idea to go with, since each AT does have different needs. I think I'd probably prefer a non-crashing nuke for Kheldians, since they tend to have more toggles as well.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I think it's about time they go back to old powers and powersets and balance specific powers based on AT's need.
If a crash-nuke works well on Defender (the base damage must be really high), then Blaster's version will be super high. I am still leaning towards a crash-less nuke for Defender/Corr and an even higher true nuke for Blaster. I think those that play Blasters want that "Wow!" and "Boom!" factor more. Defender/Corr can still use the secondary effects from nukes like stuns, -resist, -endurance drain. With exception of Nova... a knockback is a knockback. You can't really stack kb to get more benefits so Nova needs some help. In fact, I think the whole Energy Blast needs a bit more love. Its DPA is kinda too low. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I never understand why there should be "chances" involved in a panic button. Why don't they get rid of 75% and 50% chance and give Blaster the full value to begin with?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I tried WS nuke for the first time tonight. Oh..I thought I could nuke and then quickly leech health back from dead bodies. The problem is..where are the dead bodies? lol They flew like two miles away from me!! |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Might be a good idea to go with, since each AT does have different needs. I think I'd probably prefer a non-crashing nuke for Kheldians, since they tend to have more toggles as well.
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I do not like strong pbaoe knockback.
Kheldians have similar problem. Their base damage isn't high enough to see the true potential of a nuke. If things are not dead, then there is no point in nuking. Save your endurance and keep on fighting. WS at least has one good power to leech all endurance back with just one blue inspiration.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I wouldnt see any balance issue to remove the crash on either nukes (being plainly worste than Judgements now) or t9 defensive powers (which are arguably less powerfull than barrier). Crash doesnt add anything to gameplay, its just boring and a waste of time (having to re-toggle) and most of these powers are already balanced around thier long recharge or/and innability to recude recharge pr/and their specific place is the powerset (Blizzard for instence is "too" good but is in a set with very weak AoE and average/bad utility).
If Nuke is designed to be a "panic button", then it's gotta come out fast. Fortunata's nuke is what I consider the best nuke in the game. It has no crash and its damage is pretty high. The best thing about Fort's nuke is the stacking Stuns and the fact that it comes out so quick. Total activation time is still about 3s but it comes out first and then you are stuck in that animation. It is better than jumping in and waiting for 3s for the nuke to come out.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Off the top of my head I could see nukes going 3 possible directions.
1 Leave Damage/Recharge/-Recovery as is, cut end crash, up endurance cost. (20 to 75?)
As it stands, outside of Blizzard and possibly inferno they are pretty underpowered. Even more so with Muscular backed Judgements up every 90 seconds.
2 Bring them somewhere in line with the scales of RoA/HoB/Full Auto. More Damage, Higher Recharge, no crashes (More Damage/Rech than RoA etc.)
3 Leave the recharge/-end/end crash, buff the damage to make them actually desirable.
Look at Archery, you can fire off RoA safely from range, not start getting aggro until the end of the 4 second animation and follow it up quickly with 2.17 seconds of cast time to hit the mob with Explosive arrow and Fistful. Basically you are looking at around 3 seconds of aggro time and are looking at a Max of 338 damage, unslotted, no Aim/Bu. The kicker being you can do it every 22 - 30 seconds with basic recharge slotting + hasten. You experience no end crashes, no -recovery and best of all do it from 50-90 feet range.
Thunderous blast hits for 312 damage safely from range every 2 to 3 minutes.
Nova, Atomic Blast, Dreadful Wail, Pyschic Wail, hits for 375 max requiring you to stand in melee range for up to 3 seconds of cast time. All with 100% end crash and -recovery for 20 seconds.
The funny part being all the people who have spoken up, wanting their nukes to be left as is. I can understand those wanting the *crash* left in and balancing around that rather than just turning them all into RoA clones. But with ED, AoE Caps, etc it is seriously outdated game mechanics. Especially considering most judgement nukes have higher AoE Caps and better "effects" For example, Voids Massive debuffs, Ion's end drain/chance to hold, Cryonics slow +chance for mag 4 hold.
Could always do something crazy and give each AT their own version of the nuke:
Defenders = Vigilance makes it so nukes don't crash, only costs a lot of endurance to cast (45-60 END) and has longer lingering debuffs. Same recharge and damage.
Corruptor = Nuke does same damage and recharge and full crash. Gives user the 'Going All Out' buff that reduces all Corr blasts to 0 END cost for 10 sec. Take advantage of scourge here.
Blaster = Slight improvement to damage, lower recharge, full crash. Increase the range and target caps of these powers to be competative with Judgement.
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/this - love my Fort's nuke to death.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
If Nuke is designed to be a "panic button", then it's gotta come out fast. Fortunata's nuke is what I consider the best nuke in the game. It has no crash and its damage is pretty high. The best thing about Fort's nuke is the stacking Stuns and the fact that it comes out so quick. Total activation time is still about 3s but it comes out first and then you are stuck in that animation. It is better than jumping in and waiting for 3s for the nuke to come out.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Could always do something crazy and give each AT their own version of the nuke:
Defenders = Vigilance makes it so nukes don't crash, only costs a lot of endurance to cast (45-60 END) and has longer lingering debuffs. Same recharge and damage. Corruptor = Nuke does same damage and recharge and full crash. Gives user the 'Going All Out' buff that reduces all Corr blasts to 0 END cost for 10 sec. Take advantage of scourge here. Blaster = Slight improvement to damage, lower recharge, full crash. Increase the range and target caps of these powers to be competative with Judgement. |
I actually really like this idea.... I love my Atomic Blast as it is. Combined with Consume, it's just silly.
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Yeah, the Peacebringer one is like... RoA's damage. Only it has a crash, etc. It's not terrible when used with Build Up and especially if your team is giving you some damage buffs, but it still could use some help. That's... yet another thing that Kheldians need adjusting with. The devs are scared that they're somehow going to get overpowered, but their different capabilities are really not even in line with the ATs they're supposed to be able to mimic.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I tried WS nuke for the first time tonight. Oh..I thought I could nuke and then quickly leech health back from dead bodies. The problem is..where are the dead bodies? lol They flew like two miles away from me!!
I do not like strong pbaoe knockback. Kheldians have similar problem. Their base damage isn't high enough to see the true potential of a nuke. If things are not dead, then there is no point in nuking. Save your endurance and keep on fighting. WS at least has one good power to leech all endurance back with just one blue inspiration. |
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
If Nuke is designed to be a "panic button", then it's gotta come out fast. Fortunata's nuke is what I consider the best nuke in the game. It has no crash and its damage is pretty high. The best thing about Fort's nuke is the stacking Stuns and the fact that it comes out so quick. Total activation time is still about 3s but it comes out first and then you are stuck in that animation. It is better than jumping in and waiting for 3s for the nuke to come out.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
My NRG/NRG blaster would be able to handle mobs a bit easier with a crash less nuke, but I'd rather have the damage frankly. Nothing brings more satisfaction then firing off build-up + aim and making an entire spawn disappear with Nova. To avoid the crash, i simply keep some blues handy, pop one then conserve power. The recharge of both my powers is offset enough to use nova + conserve power in combination to make a super effective blast!
Yes, having two judgment-esque abilities would make group blasting easier, but it wouldn't be as diverse as it should be. That crash makes my blaster who he is, a monster ;]
It's difficult to see the reasoning behind crashing nukes at this point in the game, when so many ATs can level a spawn in seconds without a crash (even without incarnate powers.)
That, and the crashes are so easy to circumvent at this point anyway that it seems pretty inconsequential to just remove them.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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Back when I was leveling energy/energy, which might have been back when you were leveling that blaster, the crash didn't actually work. Yeah we lost our end but if we had stamina we started recovering immediately, and energy/energy could use conserve power after nova when it was up.|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
Once a night?
 Back when I was leveling my first blaster - energy/energy - I used Nova every chance I got when running with my regular 8-man team, which worked out to roughly every third group, give or take. This was before IO sets. With frankenslotting - three dam/recharge, 1 dam IO and 1 recharge IO - woo hoo! Devs, please don't screw up the nukes. |
I used to go berserk with Nova also, but mostly because it was a cool looking power. Not because it was actually more useful than not using it. That "wow" factor is something I would not want to lose in the interests of making nukes more utilitarian, which is why I prefer to keep the crash and add more wow, rather than remove the crash and eliminate some of the wow.
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I hope it does happen, even if I have to rebuild a few blasters as a result. 
Here is my take.
1. Should crashless nukes happen?
A. Yes! The sooner the better. With incarnate Judgement, there is no longer a reason for crashing nukes anymore. (I've already spec'ed out of them)
2. What if they don't make the change?
A. I'll keep using HoB, FA, and RoA. Thank incarnate Judgements at 50.
3. Why should they make the change?
A. Lightning Rod and Shield Charge nuff said.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Honestly? They need to address the nukes. They're not in balance anymore. I'm not saying they need to weaken them; not by a long-shot. However, as they are, not so good.
I could easily see a starting point to this: removal of the -recovery. That, not the end drain down, is the biggest problem of the "crash".
@Shenalia
Triumph: Ion Force (SG)
Victory: Evil Triumphs (VG)
Proud member of the Triumphant Defenders Coalition.
With my Elec/Elec Blaster I nuke as much as possible since I can mitigate the crash, the sap can act as mitigation/mezz, and I know it works differently. Thunderous Blast doesn't have a normal full crash. Instead the crash is -40 per target hit so it's fully viable to nuke against single targets. While I wholeheartedly agree that crash nukes should do more damage, I think it would be better suited for the crash to be similar to Thunderous Blast with adjustments.
- Make the crash -10 per target hit (plus default endurance costs)
- Allow the crash to be affected by enhancements and buffs. This way you could slot down the crash amount
- Remove recovery debuff or lower it to just -100%. If the recovery debuff stays, increase the duration of the Defiance damage buff so that it lasts longer than the recovery debuff
- Buff damage and mezz effects on crashing nukes. Speed up animation times on melee crash nukes.
I'm not the biggest numbers guy but these seem like they would be good. I also agree that these should be eyed differently per AT and per nuke. I happily nuke on my Storm/Ice defender but it does good damage and tends to be pretty safe. I want to give Blackstar a chance but I might ditch it on my Corruptor.
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The more I think about it, the more I believe this would be the best way to handle it. Perhaps once I try it both ways I'd make a better informed decision.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
best option make 2 options, one crashes the other doesn't. Once you pick one the other is greyed out like how some SOA powers currently works tech is already there why not.
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The Bacon Compels You.
Back when I was leveling my first blaster - energy/energy - I used Nova every chance I got when running with my regular 8-man team, which worked out to roughly every third group, give or take. This was before IO sets. With frankenslotting - three dam/recharge, 1 dam IO and 1 recharge IO - woo hoo!
Devs, please don't screw up the nukes.
If I didn't get the set bonus from using it as a mule I'd drop the power.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes