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When I read these forums I often think I am talking to people from at least a different solar system. What she presented is an argument and an easily refuted one if you are actually thinking critically about what is being said.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Arcana actually presented valid numbers to prove nukes are underpowered, not just the abstract whining the rest of us tend to do in chorus. Be graceful and offer a thank you rather than a flame, will you?
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The counter is very simple, blast sets are standardized to have a certain level of effectiveness. If you compare the overall effectiveness of blast sets across the ATs that have them they are working as intended, if anything the availability of both build up and aim to blasters may in effect boost blaster nukes to too high a performance level relative to their counterparts in other ATs
Nova Slotted with aim and build up = 1090 points of damage
Nova on a corruptor = 480 points of damage
Nova on a solo defender = 480 points of damage
The blaster nuke is obviously overpowered its doing over double damage already, and the other ATs have same crash penalties but in general suffer more from the end drain and toggle drop.
Whats more due the nature of the game because Lieutenants have 800 or so hitpoints the blaster nuke will take out more of a spawn and reduce the post nuke threat level to the blaster by a larger amount
You can hand wave an argument in any direction you like, it may even give you insight into what is happening but it is not proof.
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The rule is the problem not the blaster nukes. If you have an AT that gives up everything for damage it better get damage. Mechanical changes that have no actual benefit to the player and indeed may make the AT harder to play don't help, they just con people into the AT.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
I don't know what is funnier, people who rage at Arcanaville for simply stating things in a dispassionate manner, or that some people think that if you're not going out of your way to use the most inflammatory wording possible then you're trying to 'spin things'.
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Thats like saying tankers have 90% resistance compared to 50-60% brutes, being overpowered.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The blaster nuke is obviously overpowered its doing over double damage already, and the other ATs have same crash penalties but in general suffer more from the end drain and toggle drop.
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No, the line of argument on that would involve comparing god modes to god modes. Either way you missed the point entirely comparing a power to other powers in the set is invalid reasoning to show whether its over or underpowered just as invalid as comparing it across ats. Arguing crashing nukes are underpowered because they dont measure up to high performers in the same set is like saying one with the shield or unstoppable aren't good enough.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Thats like saying tankers have 90% resistance compared to 50-60% brutes, being overpowered.
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Its pretty easy to show that most blaster combinations underperform for an at that has minimal force multiplication, incredibly poor survivability and only above average damage. Switching nukes for something that is from a dps standpoint identical and will be more difficult to use is just pure bait and switch. Why not just alter the font the damage numbers are printed with to a bigger one and make the graphics flashier ?
Because unstoppable is actualy crap? Thats no rocket science.
At the end, i care little. I got my incarnate judgement wich is far far superiour to any nuke i have.
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A_F, seriously? I don't understand how you took a look at this thread and thought "I know what this needs, an insulting tangent and a dose of 'blasters suck' for good measure." Have you ever considered that good attention is more enjoyable than bad attention?
Let's try this meditative exercise: Pretend Arcanaville just posted two numbers. Any numbers at all. Now, take the anger you're feeling and put it into a box. Lock this box and put the key in the attic. If you find yourself going up to that attic, just take a deep breath and count to ten.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Because unstoppable is actualy crap? Thats no rocket science.
At the end, i care little. I got my incarnate judgement wich is far far superiour to any nuke i have. |
That's really part of the problem from my point of view. The incarnate nukes are superior. Destiny isn't superior to healing aura or or speedboost, it isn't even close to the shields you can get from a sonic/ff/cold. Interface is nice but its not better than the debuffs you get from the ATs that are known for doing so. The pets arguable, when they are available they certainly are the best pets in the game but they are at most up 1/3 of the time.
Incarnate nukes turn everyone into a damage machine capable of outnuking a blaster. So when arcana talks about blaster damage being limited irrespective of how much improvement there is elsewhere she is manufacturing consent for the suck
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You'd be better off trying to provoke people in MARTy thread. They don't know you.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
A_F, seriously? I don't understand how you took a look at this thread and thought "I know what this needs, an insulting tangent and a dose of 'blasters suck' for good measure." Have you ever considered that good attention is more enjoyable than bad attention?
Let's try this meditative exercise: Pretend Arcanaville just posted two numbers. Any numbers at all. Now, take the anger you're feeling and put it into a box. Lock this box and put the key in the attic. If you find yourself going up to that attic, just take a deep breath and count to ten. |
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I don't think he's the one doing the provoking.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You'd be better off trying to provoke people in MARTy thread. They don't know you.
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Anything is easy to refute if that's your standard of refutation. That argument doesn't even pass basic sanity tests. The blaster nuke is obviously overpowered because of Build Up and Aim? Because it does more damage than the nukes in other archetypes?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
When I read these forums I often think I am talking to people from at least a different solar system. What she presented is an argument and an easily refuted one if you are actually thinking critically about what is being said.
The counter is very simple, blast sets are standardized to have a certain level of effectiveness. If you compare the overall effectiveness of blast sets across the ATs that have them they are working as intended, if anything the availability of both build up and aim to blasters may in effect boost blaster nukes to too high a performance level relative to their counterparts in other ATs Nova Slotted with aim and build up = 1090 points of damage Nova on a corruptor = 480 points of damage Nova on a solo defender = 480 points of damage The blaster nuke is obviously overpowered its doing over double damage already, and the other ATs have same crash penalties but in general suffer more from the end drain and toggle drop. Whats more due the nature of the game because Lieutenants have 800 or so hitpoints the blaster nuke will take out more of a spawn and reduce the post nuke threat level to the blaster by a larger amount You can hand wave an argument in any direction you like, it may even give you insight into what is happening but it is not proof. |
Not even going to waste time doing anything more than pointing out that any attempt to counter that particular assertion would be a waste of time.
As to Lt health, as I think practically everyone else recognizes, because they read my post instead of just doodling in the margins, I actually make the argument that crashing nukes are *supposed* to kill Lts. So the trivial statement that they cannot be boosted because then they might reliably kill Lts is:
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Seriously, make up your mind. Am I not accounting for a rule that limits nuke damage, or am I making up a rule excusing nuke damage limits.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That's really part of the problem from my point of view. The incarnate nukes are superior. Destiny isn't superior to healing aura or or speedboost, it isn't even close to the shields you can get from a sonic/ff/cold. Interface is nice but its not better than the debuffs you get from the ATs that are known for doing so. The pets arguable, when they are available they certainly are the best pets in the game but they are at most up 1/3 of the time.
Incarnate nukes turn everyone into a damage machine capable of outnuking a blaster. So when arcana talks about blaster damage being limited irrespective of how much improvement there is elsewhere she is manufacturing consent for the suck |
Even a troll posts with purpose. This is just Eliza output at this point.
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Quote:
Memento, check your tattoos. This is the "Crashless Nukes *Might* Happen" thread. Not the "How Another_Fan would fix blasters" thread.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The rule is the problem not the blaster nukes. If you have an AT that gives up everything for damage it better get damage. Mechanical changes that have no actual benefit to the player and indeed may make the AT harder to play don't help, they just con people into the AT.
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Yes. Make the nukes crashless.
However, please try to be more creative than severely watering down their damage to compensate.
Here are some ideas that DON'T require damage to be NERFED:
-a Nuke that damages yourself, like an overload,
-a Nuke that agroes everything on you
-a Nuke that dumps all your endurance, but DOESN'T prevent you frm regaining endurance
-a Nuke that harms friend and foe alike (everybody run, he's going to blow!)
-a Nuke that severely reduces your regen. Or Defense. Or Resistance.
-a Nuke that had a chance of hitting you with a status like disorient for a time
-lots more options
However, even if you devs don't want to get creative, Rain of Arrows is my favorite nuke. Additionally - Nove, Inferno, etc - I always skip.
I look forward to your solutions.
For Great Justice!
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Yes please! I always avoid/skip nukes with crashes anymore because I find retoggling for 15 seconds afterwards very fun with the speed of teaming these days. Sure, I can have enough +Recovery to make the End crash nigh unimportant, but I will still have to retoggle everything, and most likely will still be retoggling as the team demolishes the entire next spawn.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Care of the latest dev chat highlights:
What do you all think of the idea? I think we'd like it, given past Blaster discussions, but I am curious to see what everyone else thinks. |
Crashless nukes are
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What would happen to Full Auto? Would it stay as is, or would adjustments be made if other nukes are made crashless?
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We're speaking completely hypothetically because the devs themselves haven't said anything except maybe it might happen someday, but I would assume it would depend on what happened to the crashing nukes. If the crash was removed, I would imagine the non-crashing nukes might be buffed slightly to bring them up to the crashing nuke's current level. On the other hand crashing nukes might just be converted into non-crashing nukes by bringing them down to the level of the current non-crashing nukes, in which case probably nothing at all would happen to the current non-crashing nukes.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
What would happen to Full Auto? Would it stay as is, or would adjustments be made if other nukes are made crashless?
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I agree that it could go either way really.
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Full Auto does seem abit underpowered compared to Rain of Arrows, considering they share the same recharge. Anyway, I hope that, if the devs do remove the crash and reduce the damage, they also lower the cooldown to 2 minutes, like Hail of Bullets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We're speaking completely hypothetically because the devs themselves haven't said anything except maybe it might happen someday, but I would assume it would depend on what happened to the crashing nukes. If the crash was removed, I would imagine the non-crashing nukes might be buffed slightly to bring them up to the crashing nuke's current level. On the other hand crashing nukes might just be converted into non-crashing nukes by bringing them down to the level of the current non-crashing nukes, in which case probably nothing at all would happen to the current non-crashing nukes.
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If Synapse is reading this I have a question. Why do nukes even have to have a crash to begin with? Its not like how thing used to be where we could herd all the mobs on the map into a single trash can and kill them all or at least most of them with a single blaster using a nuke at the damage cap. There is absolutely no reason why we have to have a crash now let alone the pathetic damage of the crashless nukes being so low. I have always looked at nuking from a comic book perspective as the person giving their all almost to the point of passing out but having it truely make a difference. Meaning all mobs effected should die.
I think at the very least for blasters nukes if they have to have a crash should kill everything from a boss to lower thats up to +4 levels than the blaster. I mean come on you are giving up a full bar of endurance and not able to recover for 20 seconds. Thats a long time if you do not have allies who can buff your end or you do not have cabs. Whats worse is that blasters are the only AT thats butt-bootie naked in terms of defense compared to the other ATs. I have always felt that blasters should do way more damage than they do to justify their squishieness. Practically every other MMO I have ever played that has ranged characters are way more survivable than blasters. Giving blasters something like this is not overpowered compare to what some of the other ATs already do with elec/shields and/or incarnate powers with bigger target caps. For the most part you guys have made the other powersets and incarnate powers totally make using a tier 9 power pointless so why not give it something worth using again, and finally buff up the crasheless nukes as well so they are worth using.
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Kill everything +4, yeah right. You got spoiled too much by farms and trials, +4 is not a standard in this game. If you worry about survivability against +4, you should go with a party, just as many other AT's do (there are only a few that can on +4 totaly solo).
And in what degree is elec/shield so powerful? their 2 mini-nukes once in while? Per activation they are pretty equal to many other AoE powers.
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Quote:
Full Auto is probably balanced around "Lucky shot".
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Full Auto does seem abit underpowered compared to Rain of Arrows, considering they share the same recharge. Anyway, I hope that, if the devs do remove the crash and reduce the damage, they also lower the cooldown to 2 minutes, like Hail of Bullets.
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Once in a while? those things are up more often than the real nukes. Meaning you can take out more mobs alot faster with those powers. Again the +4 thing is the only way I can currently justify the crash when you compare it to say those other powers. Why use it if the others can do the same thing better with no problems and more often. Its gotta be +4. And in terms of the survivabilty comment you made, you know how teams play these days with players with wierd builds that do not support others and blasters hit the dirt more so than anyone else I think its only fair they do more damage.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Kill everything +4, yeah right. You got spoiled too much by farms and trials, +4 is not a standard in this game. If you worry about survivability against +4, you should go with a party, just as many other AT's do (there are only a few that can on +4 totaly solo).
And in what degree is elec/shield so powerful? their 2 mini-nukes once in while? Per activation they are pretty equal to many other AoE powers. |
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Quote:
You're never going to balance a conventional powerset power around +4 anything. Ever ever ever ever. Ever ever? Ever.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Once in a while? those things are up more often than the real nukes. Meaning you can take out more mobs alot faster with those powers. Again the +4 thing is the only way I can currently justify the crash when you compare it to say those other powers. Why use it if the others can do the same thing better with no problems and more often. Its gotta be +4. And in terms of the survivabilty comment you made, you know how teams play these days with players with wierd builds that do not support others and blasters hit the dirt more so than anyone else I think its only fair they do more damage.
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I like the suggestion of making it different for each AT in a way that plays to the AT's strengths. Like, for instance...
Blaster: Keep the crashy nukes, but up their damage per Arcanaville's suggestion such that they are guaranteed to kill LTs, at least even-con. Perhaps make them ignore damage buffs from sources other than slotted enhancements like Judgment. Lower the recharge to, IMO, no more than 3 minutes.
Corruptor: Lose the crashes, adjust damage if necessary. Ideally, making them all more rain-style for Corruptors would be an interesting way to synergize with Scourge. Lower the recharge to 2 minutes a'la Beam Rifle. (I think Corruptor needs crashless nukes due to its support subrole)
Defender: I see two ways to go here. Either match what you did with Corruptor, or make defender nukes crashy but attach substantial team buffs to them in tandem with the big explosion of damage. (I don't know if this is possible in our engine.)
On a more fundamental level, personally, I don't think the crash is the problem with the "old" nukes currently in the game. It's the recharge.
This isn't a unique observation of your posts, but I often wonder if you don't know that you're crazy, or just enjoy looking crazy, or if this is a cry for help. Unfortunately, psychosis is not a diagnostic specialty of mine, so I would recommend crying for help from someone else.