Getting back on-topic - "crashless nukes", and not necessarily Blasters and the role they fulfill...
Upon reviewing this thread, I had an idea. The main problem over this seems to be that some people have a desire to keep the crash component for the "feel" of how it works, and others recognize how the crash keeps the nukes from being truly viable powers a vast majority of the time. From what it sounds like, the idea of "Going All Out" is tied to the concept of comic-book Blasters. Then, it hit me...
Why do the nuke powers themselves and "The Crash" have to be the same power?
Swap Ammo's mechanic gives us the solution here:
- Take the crash component out from the nuke powers and then give them a proper balance calculation.
- For Blasters, add a Domination-like click power that is received upon taking their Tier-9 power. When activated, they receive a short duration buff (5 seconds?) that creates an "additional" damage tick on any powers used within that timeframe - bypassing the traditional damage cap that powers could be boosted to. Upon the end of that duration buff, the Blaster receives a "full crash".
With this, "The Crash" becomes an additional, non-enhanceable power with a long recharge that allows Blasters to occasionally, truly go "all out" on an enemy and leave them dramatically weakened. By separating it from the nukes themselves, the current Tier-9s can become usable on a regular basis without being "out of balance" by the devs' terms - like FA/RoA/HoB. An additional bonus: "The Crash" could easily be used for more than just the nuke itself in this situation. Each Blaster power could have an "additional damage" component set aside to only activate when "The Crash" buff is in effect, so every single power could be balanced individually around this concept.
The end result? Everybody - Blaster, Defenders and Corrupters - get useful, non-crashing nukes with proper, balanced damage/recharge calculations (overall effect: buff). Blasters receive a function that allows them to use those non-crashing nukes at their current level of power - or slightly higher, if the Devs calculate it that way - with a crash attached to it. This could also be applied to the current crashless nuke sets, giving them an extra "oomph" if so desired, too.
Comments? Likes/dislikes?
@Shenalia
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The way Arbiter Hawk stated it, he wanted to keep the KB in the power at this point to make sure Peacebringers are not too strong. Since the current KB does have an impact on the damage a Peacebringer can do, I did take that as reluctance to give them a damage buff. People have also frequently suggested adjusting the Kheldian damage mods again, or the caps, and/or adjusting those while lowering the boosts from Cosmic Balance. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm aware of that, but that's not quite the same thing. That was not a case of the devs considering a damage buff, and being tentative about whether it would be too high. That was the devs not willing at that time to overturn a design decision made by the original Peacebringer designers to combine AoE attacks with knockback scatter as a counterbalance.
It would be no different if you asked the devs to make Rage perma and have no crash and they said they thought that would generate too much damage out of the box: that doesn't signal being tentative about damage, that's a very specific case being analyzed. |
I guess I'm just interpreting it differently than you. Your Rage example to me seems to be tentative about damage, as they're holding the power back for damage reasons, or at least for providing too much damage benefit without enough of a drawback.
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Originally Posted by Eldagore
Well I for one could see how Hawk would be concerned about giving warshades to much damage. I mean with the perma eclipse thing and the various other benefits the AT gets....
Oh wait you said PB. Yeah those PB are top of the list for game breakers  |
Solar Flare is a PB only power, which was referenced in the Arbiter Hawk statement. I still can't fathom who keeping it KB is seen as an okay thing, or the only thing holding back Peacebringers from being overpowered. I don't quite think Arbiter Hawk meant it that way (his attitude seems to be wait and see at this point), but it did read that way.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Imagine how good AR would be if it did knock down instead of knockback?
 |
E.g., M80 + Full Auto cuts down on return fire without lowering your damage; Energy's two AOE powers right after the other does the same thing. I'd actually argue that the KB in those two sets makes them much more survivable than other sets with different (or no) mitigation, all without weakening them too much.
Anyway, sorry to sidetrack things so much. I did realize that in an earlier post I didn't really say why I prefer non-crashing nukes. I'll do that here to help keep on track.
For me, I don't think I'll care if nukes have their damage improved and still have a crash. The crash will still slow me down drastically, making that burst less helpful than if it had done less damage and not crashed. It's much the same with defensive Tier 9 powers. I use the ones without a crash (or a huge one, anyway, like One With the Shield), and find those with one (or such a huge one that your health and endurance are floored) not to be all that helpful. I avoid using them.
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This sort of thing has been suggested in the past: vis a vis Blaster Overdrive.
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Originally Posted by Shenalia
Getting back on-topic - "crashless nukes", and not necessarily Blasters and the role they fulfill...
Upon reviewing this thread, I had an idea. The main problem over this seems to be that some people have a desire to keep the crash component for the "feel" of how it works, and others recognize how the crash keeps the nukes from being truly viable powers a vast majority of the time. From what it sounds like, the idea of "Going All Out" is tied to the concept of comic-book Blasters. Then, it hit me... Why do the nuke powers themselves and "The Crash" have to be the same power? Swap Ammo's mechanic gives us the solution here:
With this, "The Crash" becomes an additional, non-enhanceable power with a long recharge that allows Blasters to occasionally, truly go "all out" on an enemy and leave them dramatically weakened. By separating it from the nukes themselves, the current Tier-9s can become usable on a regular basis without being "out of balance" by the devs' terms - like FA/RoA/HoB. An additional bonus: "The Crash" could easily be used for more than just the nuke itself in this situation. Each Blaster power could have an "additional damage" component set aside to only activate when "The Crash" buff is in effect, so every single power could be balanced individually around this concept. The end result? Everybody - Blaster, Defenders and Corrupters - get useful, non-crashing nukes with proper, balanced damage/recharge calculations (overall effect: buff). Blasters receive a function that allows them to use those non-crashing nukes at their current level of power - or slightly higher, if the Devs calculate it that way - with a crash attached to it. This could also be applied to the current crashless nuke sets, giving them an extra "oomph" if so desired, too. Comments? Likes/dislikes? |
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Ahh. I've been gone for a long time, and did not know this. >_>
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This sort of thing has been suggested in the past: vis a vis Blaster Overdrive.
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@Shenalia
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Proud member of the Triumphant Defenders Coalition.
One thing that I've tossed around in my head for quite a while is, what if Defiance were expanded to work when the Blaster was dead as well as mezzed? Perhaps even expanding the list of powers usable when mezzed to include Crashing nukes (if possible to separate Crashless nukes from the rest).
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Being damage buffed while dead seems suboptimal.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
One thing that I've tossed around in my head for quite a while is, what if Defiance were expanded to work when the Blaster was dead as well as mezzed?
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Kidding. As much as the devs conspire to kill blasters, I don't think they want them shooting while dead.
Along the same lines as my observation of damage buffing powers above, I also find it interesting that while blasters get things like Rise of the Phoenix, its ironically once again the melee archetypes that get rezzes in their powersets when they rarely need them, and the archetype that's always falling down has to get all the way to 41 to unlock a powerset that has one. And blasters don't get things like Soul Transfer, which I believe every blaster that has ever walked the servers has wished for at least once.
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You know, getting rid of the KB of energy would actually be likely to significantly reduce the soloability of my energy blaster. The ability to keep the majority of a group of enemies attacking me not only on their backs for a part of the time, but at range really helps keep her out of trouble.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Or Energy! (Power Push and Nova excepted.)
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I could get that survivability in other ways true, staying at range isn't all that hard, but having it built in to my attacks is quite nice.
Also, there's the sentiment of the whole, "You can take my KB from my cold, dead hands," but that's hardly a good argument against getting rid of KB from attacks.
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I sometimes wonder if the crashing nukes couldn't be toggles that charge up in power the longer you "held" them by keeping them toggled on. The animation time would be outside of combat and turning the toggle off would fire the attack instantly. The nuke would also auto-fire if the player died. If you planned it Build Up or Aim might be active, if you didn't they might or might not.
There could also be some bonus the player got while the toggle was "held." The "penalty" of releasing the toggle would no longer be losing your endurance (i.e. something baseline you have), but temporarily losing the bonus.
Sadly, when I want my KB to actually help me, it doesn't.
I don't need to KB that minion running at me, I NEED to KB that AV about to one shot my head from my shoulders, but for the most part, they are immune to all of my KB attacks.
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LOL. That brings a whole new meaning to the term "corpse blasting"!!|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
One thing that I've tossed around in my head for quite a while is, what if Defiance were expanded to work when the Blaster was dead as well as mezzed? Perhaps even expanding the list of powers usable when mezzed to include Crashing nukes (if possible to separate Crashless nukes from the rest).
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But there is merit to the idea of a nuke in defiance. I would add to that idea the nuke only drops 25% endo and then...wait for it.... gives 10 seconds of mez protection after.
"You cant stop me! I wont let you!! I have to win!!" (nukes, breaks free of constraints)
Nukes need MOAR then just that, but it would be a really good start I think. It helps patch up an AT hole AND fits nicely into comic theme.
Nice idea William_Valence.
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Quote:
Powers that are usable when dead can't cost end, because when dead you don't have end. Its also not logical to me for powers you can use when dead to have intrinsic crashes, because in effect you've already paid a crash to use them: you're dead. Rezzes with crashes like Mutation are paying for an additional buff beyond the rez with the crash.|
Originally Posted by Eldagore
LOL. That brings a whole new meaning to the term "corpse blasting"!!
But there is merit to the idea of a nuke in defiance. I would add to that idea the nuke only drops 25% endo and then...wait for it.... gives 10 seconds of mez protection after. "You cant stop me! I wont let you!! I have to win!!" (nukes, breaks free of constraints) Nukes need MOAR then just that, but it would be a really good start I think. It helps patch up an AT hole AND fits nicely into comic theme. Nice idea William_Valence. |
Mutation would be another rez that would work really good for blasters, by the way.
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The idea of allowing crashing nukes and not the non-crashing variety is that the non-crashing type are available more often. The crash itself is unimportant, it's the frequency of use that's the concern.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Powers that are usable when dead can't cost end, because when dead you don't have end. Its also not logical to me for powers you can use when dead to have intrinsic crashes, because in effect you've already paid a crash to use them: you're dead. Rezzes with crashes like Mutation are paying for an additional buff beyond the rez with the crash.
Mutation would be another rez that would work really good for blasters, by the way. |
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Quote:
Well, they could get around that by changing the end cost to zero and adding a -End on self effect to the powers. Of course, then you couldn't slot them for endurance cost reduction. And the fact that it's really not a good idea to begin with...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Powers that are usable when dead can't cost end, because when dead you don't have end.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
SCR applies, but I would add a 10th power to Blaster primaries that is a less damage, fast recharge, crashless nuke (see Archery, DP), then make it an either/or choice with the current Tier 9. Easier said than done, I know.
A more realistic approach would be to see if the crash and/or recharge can be tweaked a bit to be more 'friendly' to the Blaster (and other ATs that use the same nukes). I would also like to see them tailor the nukes to the AT, including creating a different 'Pet' for each power that uses them.
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I said this on page 1 I think... I mentioned this several times and posted a suggestion about it.|
Originally Posted by Cyclone_Jack
SCR applies, but I would add a 10th power to Blaster primaries that is a less damage, fast recharge, crashless nuke (see Archery, DP), then make it an either/or choice with the current Tier 9. Easier said than done, I know.
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Coloring powers was impossible at one time.
Nothing is impossible, it just how much time they are willing to spend to do this.
I also recall a time it when your were never going to fly in a starter zone in another MMO. But they did it.
I do agree though, I do feel they painted themselves into corners with these powers. To me it appears as if it is much easier for them to make up new powers then fix older ones.
I believe enough suggestions have been posted up over the years that many power sets could have 2 powers choices for each power in a set thus making even 2 ATs with the same power sets the chance to be unique.
It would interest new players and old players. If having all new powers might over power a set just limit the choices saying you can only have 2 new powers picked the rest of have to be original power choices or whatever.
But 11 pages of trying to figure out how to change powers is never, never, never going to happen. They will never, never, never wake up one day and decide to remove all the KB or make KB to Knock up on energy per say. It is just not going to happen. The only choice is making an alternate power that players have to choose from or new sets.
Further I would like to add it is obvious they can make some changes to what power choices are needed or not needed and at what level they can be picked up just by seeing i21 come out. So I see no reason why they cannot make a new energy power pool per say that unlocks powers at certain levels just like any other power pool.
Finally part of me thinks this is where the market is going to come in. I imagine ( hope ) that you will probably see many new powers open up that can only be purchased as alternate choices to current powers.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Powers that are usable when dead can't cost end, because when dead you don't have end. Its also not logical to me for powers you can use when dead to have intrinsic crashes, because in effect you've already paid a crash to use them: you're dead. Rezzes with crashes like Mutation are paying for an additional buff beyond the rez with the crash.
Mutation would be another rez that would work really good for blasters, by the way. |
You misunderstand my post. I actually find the concept of attacking while dead sort of silly, hence the LOL.
The adding Nukes to defiance I thought was actually a good idea and something that could be part of the puzzle on a solid rework of nukes. I then added a few of my own thoughts to that idea.
I suppose i could have put a more straightforward split there for clarity.
On the subject of cost though, I think if a nuke were to work in defiance, it would have to have a type of "crash" cost, or rather an "after cast" cost. If blasters could use a nuke as a sort of break free, it would need the cost to be small for activation, with appropriate "crash" cost after the dmg and effects are applied. Having a steep up front cost would serve to limit it's usefulness as there would be many times a blaster could not afford to use the power when they needed it most.
For instance, if the power cost 5 end to activate, but then had a 25% endo crash after, a blaster could use the power almost whenever they needed it, but the actual cost in the crash would possibly cause a toggle drop if the players endo bar were too low when they activated it. This would allow the mechanic to have a sort of strategic feel behind it- forcing the player to choose if a dmg/mez break is worth it depending on how full the blue bar is or how big of trouble they are in. After all, maybe a endo crash toggle drop is still better odds then just standing there stunned getting pummeled- but then again maybe it isn;t. It would keep some of that strategic feel to the power as opposed to making it a "spam it for mez protection every chance you get!" power.
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Part of the issue with Crashless nukes for EVERYONE is that well... Consider the following.
Compare Fire pre 32, and compare Assault Rifle pre 32. Fire's powers without it's nuke are all strong enough to stand on their own while AR really needs it's 'Nuke' to shine.
IMO, if they do that they would have to fiddle with the numbers on all the other powers. Even if Inferno was still a PBAoE, if it had numbers comparable to Full Auto (Or more due to Fire's 'passive') There would be ZERO reason to play anything else. You could just kill a group with Fireball + Inferno + Fire Sword Circle/Psychic Shockwave then move on to the next one and have everything up again.
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I really like that idea - seems like giving us a choice of whether or not to use it would satisfy more people. That said, I'm not sure if I would bother ever using 'The Crash'. Here's my question: is instantly killing 16 minions and maybe some Lts worth the vulnerability of crashing and removing yourself from the functioning team for the next 2-3 fights while you recover?
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Originally Posted by Shenalia
Getting back on-topic - "crashless nukes", and not necessarily Blasters and the role they fulfill...
Upon reviewing this thread, I had an idea. The main problem over this seems to be that some people have a desire to keep the crash component for the "feel" of how it works, and others recognize how the crash keeps the nukes from being truly viable powers a vast majority of the time. From what it sounds like, the idea of "Going All Out" is tied to the concept of comic-book Blasters. Then, it hit me... Why do the nuke powers themselves and "The Crash" have to be the same power? . . . Comments? Likes/dislikes? |
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You can say the same thing about footstomping Brutes but that hasn't been nerfed
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Originally Posted by Kidou
Part of the issue with Crashless nukes for EVERYONE is that well... Consider the following.
Compare Fire pre 32, and compare Assault Rifle pre 32. Fire's powers without it's nuke are all strong enough to stand on their own while AR really needs it's 'Nuke' to shine. IMO, if they do that they would have to fiddle with the numbers on all the other powers. Even if Inferno was still a PBAoE, if it had numbers comparable to Full Auto (Or more due to Fire's 'passive') There would be ZERO reason to play anything else. You could just kill a group with Fireball + Inferno + Fire Sword Circle/Psychic Shockwave then move on to the next one and have everything up again. |
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I agree!|
Originally Posted by plainguy
I said this on page 1 I think... I mentioned this several times and posted a suggestion about it.
Nothing is impossible... |
Did you post that under a different name though? This is your first posting in this thread.
Probably just easiest to go back to the old -XX endurance without the "timeout" period for nukes but I haven't found much info why this would be bad/good while perusing the thread.
-100% endurance + retoggle + retoggle + retoggle...
The above is what I think about with my characters when I consider the crashing nukes.
I would prefer a -defense and a -resistance debuff be applied to the nuker as a thematic consequence to expending most of your energy in a big burst rather than being too tired to do much else. If that is still too easy on the nuker, add a -50% or something damage debuff.
What I'd really love to see is something like AT specific Power Pools, moving some of these common buffs, (something like like a T1 Conserve, T2 AIM, T3 Buildup, T4 POWERPUSH ) out of the powersets and into a pool making them accessible across the AT.