Art Poll: Signature Characters
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-08-01 13:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Um... Everywhere? The way the "muscle" slider works, it's next to impossibl to make a muscular woman who does NOT have a giant butt and huge thighs. That's because it's less a "muscle" slider and more an "assets" slider, as it makes women's breasts and butts bigger, but neglects to make their arms bigger or their chests (as in the rib cage) much more solid. I've had to jam the hips slider all the way to the left an the waist slider all the way to the right just to keep a stout woman's butt from looking like a semi-trailer.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I also guarantee you that that caveman liked big butts and he could not lie. So where are these big butts, if we're just acting out biological imperatives by shoving large-chested virtual women into skimpy outfits?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Look at it this way -- You find yourself surrounded by ten Circle of Thorns, seconds from having a huge fragging thorn plunged into your heart. Which of these two heroines inspires the most confidence in you from the standpoint of appearing like someone you can rely on to rescue you?
  I know which one I'd pick, if I was using the head on my shoulders. |
Again - just making a female character in a turtleneck top does not automatically equal class and good design, especially when said female character is still fighting crime in a miniskirt, pantihose and high heels. Personally, I find it much more sexist to keep drawing up women in "girly" clothes as the only possible attire like we can't see them as anything more than Super Office Ladies.
You know who WOULD look more capable to me than BOTH of those options, though? The seven-foot-tall woman in blue jeans, steel-toed boots and a tiny workout top with arms like pipes and abs like a washboard. That I could understand and would actually perceive as being strong. So where is THAT in the game, outside of my own making?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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We get it. You like muscle chicks.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Um... Everywhere? The way the "muscle" slider works, it's next to impossibl to make a muscular woman who does NOT have a giant butt and huge thighs. That's because it's less a "muscle" slider and more an "assets" slider, as it makes women's breasts and butts bigger, but neglects to make their arms bigger or their chests (as in the rib cage) much more solid. I've had to jam the hips slider all the way to the left an the waist slider all the way to the right just to keep a stout woman's butt from looking like a semi-trailer.
Neither, because they both look absurd. The model would make me laugh my *** off if she ever tried to walk on anything but smooth, level ground in those heels, or - oh the hilarity - walk on unpaved dirt, like that of a park. The cosplayer I'd laugh my *** off because Miss Liberty's rainbow costume is just absurd and I can't keep a straight face looking at it, unless I supplant the emotion with rolling my eyes. Golden age and silver age super heroes DO NOT look capable or powerful in the slightest sense. At best, they look like gymnasts. At worst, they look like Robin Hood: Men in Tights. Again - just making a female character in a turtleneck top does not automatically equal class and good design, especially when said female character is still fighting crime in a miniskirt, pantihose and high heels. Personally, I find it much more sexist to keep drawing up women in "girly" clothes as the only possible attire like we can't see them as anything more than Super Office Ladies. You know who WOULD look more capable to me than BOTH of those options, though? The seven-foot-tall woman in blue jeans, steel-toed boots and a tiny workout top with arms like pipes and abs like a washboard. That I could understand and would actually perceive as being strong. So where is THAT in the game, outside of my own making? |
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I like Lord Recluse the most and followed by the Sand Man.
I have to say, most patrons look good except for Mako. A "shark" man as patron just seems out of picture to me. Ghost Widow, Sand Man and Black Scorpian all tie to the arachno enemies really well but a "shark" enemy? I don't think any of the enemy is close to a type of "fish". Oh wait... there is Crab. Never mind. lol A crab looks a lot closer to "Spider Armor" though. |
I showed up a bit late and there's already 18 pages, so sorry if this point's already been made. 
What I like best is the fact that there *are* such different character styles co-existing in the same setting. You've got the classic superhero-y types like Statesman and Ms. Liberty, the gritty darker types like Dark Watcher, the complete fantasy creatures like Totems and Streng, and the kind of horrific abominations like Dr Vahzilok. Players could quickly get tired of looking at the same type of characters over and over again, but that's not the case here. You always know that if the creatures and characters here aren't your favorite, you can just travel a zone or two over and there they are. The sheer diversity is my favorite part about this game's artwork, rather than any one piece of it.
IMO, the main problem with Swan's outfit is that it needs more contrast.
Black Swan used to have the same outfit with just a darker look, and I thought it looked MUCH better.
If I were in charge, I'd darken her bodysuit in some fashion and essentially leave the rest as is. (I really dig that wing shawl.)
Statesman's outfit works for him ... though I do think either a full helmet or more armor pieces would make it look better.
Ghost Widow is probably the best designed NPC in the game IMO.
Nemesis is a close second, though.
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
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I actually think this is a bigger problem than just Swan, but rather with costume design in general. As far as I'm concerned, ALL good designs need contrast. Granted, some more so than others, but a costume like Swan's that's essentially white with more white is just... Dull to look at. It's just one specific case, but I see in-game characters running around in all black and brown, with brown hair and brown skin until I go: "OK, and?" I actually have a character design which suffers from this in the face of Ezikiel, whose look I need to redesign when I start playing him again.|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
IMO, the main problem with Swan's outfit is that it needs more contrast.
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Look at the character most often praised here - Ghost Widow. She has some of the starkest, most vivid contrast to her look. She is is beautiful, interesting and memorable while at the same time not being loud or over-colourful. Not only is her outfit contrasted well by her skin and hair, but she's also contrasting black against black, which despite what most people may think, is not an "evil" colour but rather a "neutral" colour that works great as a base for everything. Contrasting non-monochrome colours against each other is hard to get right, but contrasting pretty much any colour against black almost always works.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No.|
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
Your face needs a freakin' redesign. Possibly with lasers mounted on the head.
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That's what my optics are for.
I'MMA FIRIN' MAH LAZOR!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Popular culture would appear to disagree with you |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Golden age and silver age super heroes DO NOT look capable or powerful in the slightest sense.
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Originally Posted by Attache
I'm not saying that I like this re-design but there is really seems to be a pathological disdain among some of you for anything bigger than a sensible B-cup. I haven't read enough of your posts to say this applies to you specifically but there really appears to be a strongly held opinion (among some) that a bigger bustline instantly means the woman is somehow less capable. I find that about as distasteful as any other sterotype.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I would pick the girl on the left because she would most likely be a better physical fighter due to her confidence, height, and superior fitness & muscle mass.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Look at it this way -- You find yourself surrounded by ten Circle of Thorns, seconds from having a huge fragging thorn plunged into your heart. Which of these two heroines inspires the most confidence in you from the standpoint of appearing like someone you can rely on to rescue you?
I know which one I'd pick, if I was using the head on my shoulders. |
Plus If i'm about to die of a broken heart...she looks like she might be able to fix it.
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Gymnasts don't look powerful?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Golden age and silver age super heroes DO NOT look capable or powerful in the slightest sense. At best, they look like gymnasts.
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SUPERMAN doesn't look powerful?
You mad, son.
Here's what I'd do with Swan more or less.... Takes into account her current look, her magical/psionic origins and spruces her up a bit. The shoulder bits could stay or go...
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
Well, just to reiterate, since I sort of half-derailed the train myself - My primary beef with swan and costumes like hers in the context of this thread is that it doesn't say anything substantial about the character or her story.
If we look past the scantily-clad side of things, and just examine the costume bits, we end up with the name "Swan", the ersatz wings (which I do, in fact, think is a pretty nifty costume bit) and the hairstyle with the feathers in it, which is her other signature costume bit.
Basically, the whole things says "I am a beautiful, graceful, poetic bird and I don't mind showing that to the entire world."
Which, again, tells me something about her self-image but doesn't REALLY tell me anything about HER. It certainly doesn't say "I'm a psychic who will fry your brain/control your thoughts/telekinetically toss you around/cast a magic spell to render you immobile" or whatever it is that she actually does. I'm not sure that she even flies, which is the one thing I would expect her to do given the costume.
If there's something to take away from this dicussion, in the context of David's OP, it's that nifty costume bits aren't necessarily enough to define a character all by themselves. At least not if your goal is to "tell that character's story" as opposed to simply represent a genre of costumes, which I've already intimated is what I believe Swan actually represents.
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Seeing as how he still has lots of fans, are you saying you like Rob Liefeld? Or are you saying you don't?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I also guarantee you that that caveman liked big butts and he could not lie. So where are these big butts, if we're just acting out biological imperatives by shoving large-chested virtual women into skimpy outfits?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, to anyone who thinks that "comics do it so this game should do it too" I only have two words for you: Rob Leifeld. |
I know I hate it when the comic book artists draw "realistic" looking comic book heroes. Like Gary Frank's turn on Gen-13.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
The only thing really wrong with Swan's costume is the same thing that's wrong with all white, untextured tights - you can see her skin through them.
Fix that (I consider it a bug) so that white costumes are by-god white and it'll go a long way toward making Swan not look like she's naked.
I hate that I can't create a character in white tights without being annoyed by it.
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That looks fantastic! Fix Black Swan this way too!
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Originally Posted by Djeannie
Here's what I'd do with Swan more or less.... Takes into account her current look, her magical/psionic origins and spruces her up a bit. The shoulder bits could stay or go...
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It looks decent and all, but...|
Originally Posted by Djeannie
Here's what I'd do with Swan more or less.... Takes into account her current look, her magical/psionic origins and spruces her up a bit. The shoulder bits could stay or go...
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Why can she not have some shorts-ish things? Or full torso/bottoms spandex? It looks like she forgot half her costume, in all honesty.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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My point is that he is often disparaged, for various reasons, yet the same people who disparage him are often the first to play the "comics do it so this game should too" card. Not everything that comics do is a good idea. A game inspired by superhero comics can evoke the feel of superhero comics while keeping the good and tossing the bad.|
Originally Posted by Attache
Having just evoked Rob Leifeld a page or so back myself, I'm not quite understanding your using him here. Anything that he ever did in comics is bad and must not be repeated? I'm truly not getting what you mean to say.
I can assure you that Rob Leifeld was not the first to draw disproportionate anatomy and he didn't invent big boobs in comics. While I personally did not really like his art at the time, his stylized approach was really just part of a trend of the 1990's - he was just arguably one of the more ridiculous offenders and has become the quintessential boogeyman. I'm not really up on comics enough these days to comment on what his lasting impact might have been but it does seem to me like the stylized approach to characters remains firmly represented in the industry. |
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| My take - and I don't think that you and I are going to see eye to eye - is that a game about superheroes just might attract a few fans of the main media in which superheroes appear and those fans will have certain expectations. Idealized bodies have been a staple of the genre. I'd never suggest that the game shouldn't allow for normal proportions or that we should never get an overweight body type because they have representation too but, yeah, at least some of the signature heroes should be hotness and if they wear a costume that would just be completely ridiculous in the real world I would feel that is pretty par for the course with the source material. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Um... Everywhere? The way the "muscle" slider works, it's next to impossibl to make a muscular woman who does NOT have a giant butt and huge thighs. That's because it's less a "muscle" slider and more an "assets" slider, as it makes women's breasts and butts bigger, but neglects to make their arms bigger or their chests (as in the rib cage) much more solid. I've had to jam the hips slider all the way to the left an the waist slider all the way to the right just to keep a stout woman's butt from looking like a semi-trailer.
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| You know who WOULD look more capable to me than BOTH of those options, though? The seven-foot-tall woman in blue jeans, steel-toed boots and a tiny workout top with arms like pipes and abs like a washboard. That I could understand and would actually perceive as being strong. So where is THAT in the game, outside of my own making? |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Crosspost from a different thread, where I posted a counterpoint to someone's explaining that Valkyrie should not use any Valkyrie armor parts because they don't look techy enough:
(Just pretend she has the correct chest detail and her spear, I didn't feel like shopping them in and I subsituted the Ring Strap).
If both she and Battle Maiden could look more like this instead of like the ICON advertizement for the Valkyrie items that Battle Maiden is now, that'd be supercool. Also, removing the back-of-neck shield from Valkyrie's helmet as I put it together here would help it look sleek and techy. I just wanted to have the cheek guards represented, because they look good and Valkyrie has them now.
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I think that photoshoped Swan looks even worst that the original.
And those shoulder pads does not fit on her at all.
Weird cutted gloves, same for the panties and ugly belt too.
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I think cillia would better represented by attack animations than a full texture update. Cell division is a gameplay specific thing so I'm a little wary there. Otherwise these sound like they would be good if implemented.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay.
Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. Again, absolutely no plans for this, but it's an interesting topic to think about. You've expressed a desire to maintain the character's "amoeba-ness," and I whole-heartedly agree with you. That said, there are ways we could potentially make him more visually interesting while staying completely faithful to the character concept. Off the top of my head, some examples: --ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently). --CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way. --SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall. --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character. --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid. --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me. So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about. For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think? |
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
But if a character's core concept requires something we simply COULDN'T make in the CC, then yes--of course it should be built from scratch. As with everything, it's always a question of resources. Where is the team's time better spent: on a signature character or on a new costume set for you guys? In general, I think fans are happier when we go with the latter more often than not, but obviously we're still making plenty of from-scratch signatures too. It's just a matter of finding the perfect ratio.
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Something else that would help with making NPCs more unique is location and emoting. While some like Statesman make perfect sense to stand around with hands on their hips, others would feel more alive if they were doing something. Luminary is supposed to be outgoing so give her a modified version of that seven year loyalty emote where she can wave at people without the aura effects. Serafina would probably have more visual impact if she were moved away from the AE building. Granted, that was built after she was introduced but it's still a valid point.
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Originally Posted by NightErrant
Oh! Right.
Swan. (IMG From Paragon Wiki, Hosted on Photobucket so I don't steal Tony's Bandwidth)  ...That's very TV-MA, isn't it? Now, Swan was designed before there were actual wings in the costume creator. So using new parts, I tried to recreate that lacy, angelic, but still fanservicey feel. :P  |
In quick commenting, the outfit seems a little busy and I disagree with giving her actual wings. However, there is one interesting thought going through my head. Why not take the Witch top + corresponding Bottoms with Skin texture and remake it in a bird motif rather than the current bat theme? It would obviously take development time but that plus a better resolution on the arm wings seem like the way to stay true to her design yet improve her look.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's like saying Statesman has to live up to his name, so he'd better break out the suit and smart cuffs.
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FlashToo: That's...a surprisingly good way of keeping the original pieces yet greatly improving the look.
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Again I have to ask. What does a psychic look like exactly? Jean Grey? Phoenix? Emma Frost? Do psychics look bald?|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Well, just to reiterate, since I sort of half-derailed the train myself - My primary beef with swan and costumes like hers in the context of this thread is that it doesn't say anything substantial about the character or her story.
If we look past the scantily-clad side of things, and just examine the costume bits, we end up with the name "Swan", the ersatz wings (which I do, in fact, think is a pretty nifty costume bit) and the hairstyle with the feathers in it, which is her other signature costume bit. Basically, the whole things says "I am a beautiful, graceful, poetic bird and I don't mind showing that to the entire world." Which, again, tells me something about her self-image but doesn't REALLY tell me anything about HER. It certainly doesn't say "I'm a psychic who will fry your brain/control your thoughts/telekinetically toss you around/cast a magic spell to render you immobile" or whatever it is that she actually does. I'm not sure that she even flies, which is the one thing I would expect her to do given the costume. If there's something to take away from this dicussion, in the context of David's OP, it's that nifty costume bits aren't necessarily enough to define a character all by themselves. At least not if your goal is to "tell that character's story" as opposed to simply represent a genre of costumes, which I've already intimated is what I believe Swan actually represents. |
There's not much info on her to begin with.
I'd say Djeannie's outfit for Swan looked the closest without totally changing her. And after reading the Circle of Warcraft thread, I have to wonder why changing the signature character entirely seems like a good idea to people, but changing the CoT entirely was all bad? People need to make up their minds.
Also, add a kinda see through material to the stomach section of Djeannie's proposed outfit to make it one piece, and there you go!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The problem lies with the original pieces. They don't say "nanite infused armour", they say "cheap halloween costume".|
Originally Posted by FlashToo
Crosspost from a different thread, where I posted a counterpoint to someone's explaining that Valkyrie should not use any Valkyrie armor parts because they don't look techy enough:
*image* (Just pretend she has the correct chest detail and her spear, I didn't feel like shopping them in and I subsituted the Ring Strap). If both she and Battle Maiden could look more like this instead of like the ICON advertizement for the Valkyrie items that Battle Maiden is now, that'd be supercool. Also, removing the back-of-neck shield from Valkyrie's helmet as I put it together here would help it look sleek and techy. I just wanted to have the cheek guards represented, because they look good and Valkyrie has them now. |
A few people here seem to get hung up on the tech origin to the exclusion of all other aspects of the characters.
"But she's tech origin so she must look techy"
No.
So what if she's tech origin? Ghost Widow's magic origin, does she look like a wizard? Of course she doesn't.
Both Valkyrie and Battle Maiden get their powers from their weapons. That is the tech aspect of the characters. They both wear them on their backs. That is all that's needed.
Also while we're on the subject, those weapons come from War/Warrior Earth where a Viking inspired warrior culture is prevalent. To ignore that would be ignore an entire aspect of their characters. The Valkyrie pieces are the perfect representation of that Norse influence. So what if the armour dosen't look techy. It doesn't have to, it's nanite armour, it can look like whatever it wants.
EDIT: Changed Statesman analogy. Incorrect example.
----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059
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She may be psychic, but her origin is "magic" and that has a multitude of "triggers" if you will. Djeannie suggested it in her redesign with that little squiggly rune thing. Granted that we have a lot more options today, but signature characters were never originally about player options anyway. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Again I have to ask. What does a psychic look like exactly? Jean Grey? Phoenix? Emma Frost? Do psychics look bald?
There's not much info on her to begin with. |
Right now, when I see Swan, the closest thing in my imagination that corresponds to the impression she leaves is Tandy Bowmen, aka Dagger of Cloak and Dagger. I expect to see someone who dances artfully around and uses her powers as part of the expression of that stylized kind of movement.
Now, that's probably really difficult to illustrate in a MMO environment, but it sort of doesn't matter because it's not really what Swan is truly about as far as I can tell.
In any case - put psychic aside (since, it's vague) and give her some magical accessories: runes, crystals, a mystical aura, a caduceus, I dunno. For that matter, if you put a stylized symbol representing a crystal ball on her uniform, then I'll wager that most people would understand that to mean "psychic". I'm not saying that would be a terrific aesthetic choice, but there ARE ways to get the point across.
If you kept Swan exactly as she is but you added the "Magical Runes" aura from the origins pack, I would wager that you would have people start to say "Oh, she's a magician" or "Oh, she's a witch" instead of "Oh, she's a lingerie model".
The visual cues are really what we're talking about here. Witchblade is all about the cheesecake but nobody would ever confuse her with a Victoria's Secret Angel.
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Uh... Actually, the Valkyrie pieces looks nothing whatsoever like norse stuff. Even teched-up norse stuff.
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Originally Posted by OminousVoice
The problem lies with the original pieces. They don't say "nanite infused armour", they say "cheap halloween costume".
A few people here seem to get hung up on the tech origin to the exclusion of all other aspects of the characters. "But she's tech origin so she must look techy" No. So what if she's tech origin? Ghost Widow's magic origin, does she look like a wizard? Of course she doesn't. Both Valkyrie and Battle Maiden get their powers from their weapons. That is the tech aspect of the characters. They both wear them on their backs. That is all that's needed. Also while we're on the subject, those weapons come from War/Warrior Earth where a Viking inspired warrior culture is prevalent. To ignore that would be ignore an entire aspect of their characters. The Valkyrie pieces are the perfect representation of that Norse influence. So what if the armour dosen't look techy. It doesn't have to, it's nanite armour, it can look like whatever it wants. EDIT: Changed Statesman analogy. Incorrect example. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I never said they look like Norse stuff. I said they represent Norse influence, specifically the mythological influence, insofar as they evoke the image of one of Odins battle maidens who go out and choose those among the slain who go to Valhalla.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Uh... Actually, the Valkyrie pieces looks nothing whatsoever like norse stuff. Even teched-up norse stuff.
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----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059
Let me pose to you the following question: Is it impossible for a person to be BOTH someone you want to lay AND someone you can trust with your life in a battle? Is it impossible for a person to be jubilant, flamboyant and flirty while at the same time being strong, confident and responsible? Can a character not be allowed to have a complex personality comprised of divergent and sometimes contradictory aspects? Can a character not be allowed to possess vices as well as virtues?
Linkara describes his feminist-driven dislike of fanservice as "She's drawn like this solely to titillate. There's no other reason for it." when speaking of Vicky Vale in her underpants in the ******* Batman comic. And to a large extent, I agree with him. Objectifying a woman (or a man, really, but let's skip that for now) by ignoring and dismissing her personality, powers and competencies and essentially reducing her to a peace of meat, that is truly deplorable, I agree.
However, consider the reverse - is it right to DENY a woman's sexuality and sensuality and consider every display of either to be a disgrace? Is one extreme honestly better than the other? I've see people react to revealing costumes with an almost Victorian level of abject disgust and outrage, as though there is absolutely no context in which such costumes actually make sense for the character. I simply disagree with this. I'm of the opinion that practically any design and aesthetic is feasible and viable, given the right character and provided it's actually put together well.
I would be hugely against judging a costume solely based on the size of the jugs or the amount of skin it includes. I would, instead, highly suggest judging a costume more on its artistic execution and relevance to the character it is given to. There is no room for discussion as to whether revealing costumes can look pretty and constitute art, nor is there any as to whether they can be appropriate to specific characters. They can and they can. It's a question of whether this particular revealing costume is appropriate for this particular character, and whether it's actually done with taste and talent.
Of course, in the case of the posted wan costume, I don't actually like it much at all. The VERY low details kill it dead (please up your details when making costume screenshots, guys), I don't like skirts for no reason and I honestly don't like the sever mismatch between pieces. It makes the whole design chaotic. Just the whole aesthetic makes me wonder what it's supposed to represent. There's a skirt, so I expect it to be clothes, but it has no top, so I expect it to be Tights, but it's using Witch, which is metalling with Excess, which is Leather, but it has fabric sleeves and I am confused. I don't mind the direction taken, but the execution leaves something to be desired. It just feels unbalanced and peacemeal.
*note*I'm speaking of the Swan redesign the quotes are discussing, not the later one which shows up in the thread.