Art Poll: Signature Characters

All things considered, that's actually not a bad idea.

My Arcs
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Mission Architect Handyman

Luminary looks exactly the same, she was not reflective and neither is now.

Totally agree

The closest I can get to this sort of "sleek armor" aesthetic, while still trying to remain true to the original avatar, is something like what you see below.

The basic costuming relies on Metallic Chest and Metallic Bottoms, joined with Justice Shoulders, Justice Gloves and Justice Boots, a Valkyrie Headdress and Valkyrie Belt, and Enforcer Chest Detail. The original color scheme for Valkyrie doesn't work all that well with these particular costume pieces unfortunately, since the original was a blending of copper (orange) and gold(en yellow), with the tech armor parts having some grey/white areas that ignored color choices (effectively making the costume 3 toned, instead of merely 2 toned), so some compromises in the costume editor had to be made. Stylistically, I think that this sort of thing gives Valkyrie a much sleeker, rather than "armored chunky" type of look, just in terms of costume piece selections ... even if you don't agree with the color selection(s) of a coppery red-gold and white-gold mix.

One thing that I did find surprising (but probably shouldn't have) is how the particular shade of faint yellow/gold I chose "washes out" in moonlight in the game so as to look silver at night, yet still slightly golden in the daytime. Once again, pictures are worth lots of words for this sort of thing ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

I hear about "Kirby dots" and now "Kirby tech" a fair amount. I know comics fairly well, so I know who Kirby was, but I've never really understood what people mean by these terms. Is "Kirby tech" just "circles connected by angled lines," or is there more to it?

Regardless, more costume parts of whatever kind are always good, so I support this suggestion.

edit: I see this thread has now become about redesigning Valkyrie. Well, better that than the social implications of Swan's outfit.

Certainly underscores how much fresher she'd look in some proper reflective parts.

My point was, she doesn't need an outfit that just screams "I'm a psychic" to be a psychic hero as psychic heroes have no "psychic look" they look like all the other heroes out there.

Or a culture that is influenced by ancient vikings, rather than actual Norse myth. Lots of what ifs.

Vikings on War Earth's past, went out and conquered, and the Viking lifestyle continued to live on till modern day on War Earth, no nessasarily the Norse Myths.

Sorry, I had a couple slow days at work.

Kirby dots even have their own wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirby_dots

Kirby tech I would guess just really refers to the very distinctive way he drew machinery. It's hard to describe and I'm actually waiting for a league to form and don't want to miss the button. To shorthand it, Kirby's machines were usually big, blocky powerful looking things with very distinctive raised lines and angled patterns and pulsating energy. He really defined the Marvel house style there for awhile in the 60's and 70's and a lot of artists were doing machines the Kirby way there. You can even see some of the artifacts of his influence today. It's kind of cool.

Agreed, though it's more likely both. The viking culture comes with its own mythology. I got the inference of myth from the names Valkyrie and Battle Maiden which are synonyms for each other.

Personally I'd love for Manticore (if he's still around) to chime in with a bit more info on War Earth.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

It is my understanding that he's not. I contacted one of the other "lore" guys about picking up Manticore's 'Fodder for the Canon' thread but never heard back. It's a shame.

Yes, well, that's the misunderstanding since I wasn't referring to Swan specifically at that point. I assumed that was clear but perhaps it was not. As for looking like all the other heroes, that was the point of the aura. To give a way to NOT look like all the other heroes out there. If you WANT your hero to look like all the other heroes, well, that's easily done.

In any case, I thought I made it fairly clear that while "psychic" is fairly generic that "magic" is not and that there are many ways that "magic" could be indicated using existing elements or by inventing elements unique to Swan.

If I failed to actually do that, well, then I'll take a lesson from and it attempt to improve the next time around.

As it stands, I think that Swan could be left entirely alone and just add an aura or extra element that suggests "magic".

Although not too much. I do sometimes worry about you guys; there's a fast growing, almost Liefeldian obsession, albeit with shiny instead of pouches
"It needs more reflections! MORE! Put reflections on the hair! And the teeth! And the EYES! Bwuahahahaha!"

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Protean's the head Lore guy now.
And he does play his cards quite close to his chest at times

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Hm, you know what? That actually doesn't look half bad, honestly. And while I can understand Tech's concern about Reflection tech being spammed too much in new costume parts (which based on screenshots of up coming ones, should not be too big a problem...) in this case it does help give a sense that the armor is ultimately nanite created, and it's thinness does almost suggest to me that it would be an armor that repairs (or regenerates) itself.

Also, does no one else find Valkyrie's whole backstory messed up? Her personality got overwritten by a bunch of tiny robots that effectively forced themselves into her system! She's a technological Circle of Thorns member!
Also, given that the spear came from War Earth, it's a miracle it didn't brainwash her into being a blood thirsty, wannabe Viking, raider.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

First of all, I have to say this ...

First post *because* of a Red Name RESPONSE!

*Ahem!*
(happy happy...)

Where was I?
Oh yes ... pontificating ...



To be FAIR, David, the original Valkyrie avatar actually IS almost certainly the best that could be done with the original costume creator tools pre-Launch. I have memories of working with the costume creator in Issue 2, and I remember how *liberating* it felt to get new costume parts in Issue 4 (sneakers! mini-vests!) which in turn allowed "looks" for characters that simply weren't possible previously.

So the game has "grown" and moved on from where it was originally, in terms of capabilities for things like the costume creator, and we can now "do things" that simply weren't possible back in the pre-2005 time range. But just because we CAN do them, doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD do them!

My personal effort with Valkyrie (seen above) was partially to answer a question in my own mind, that if Valkyrie's "look" were to be updated, exactly HOW should it be updated? And even more importantly, what should it be updated to? Basically, what "parts" do we have available to us, already, to support such an effort? As it turns out ... there really isn't all that much you can *DO* to change Valkyrie's appearance without making her a totally "different" character, unrelated to the original. And for me (and I assume, a lot of other people), that sense of Continuity between "looks" for a character is absolutely essential. It's okay to "evolve" the look of a signature character, so long as you're making EVOLUTIONARY changes to their appearance, rather than REVOLUTIONARY changes. I personally, far more enjoy seeing that thread of Continuity between Before and After in a character's appearance, since both give me greater appreciation for the underlying nature of the character that informs these decisions.



So to drag this back around to the case of the *original* Valkyrie, standing there in Steel Canyon ... her original look is very much an "armored" appearance, but it's a Low Tech sort of look which makes you think that she'd rattle when she moves (as plate armor like that is prone to do) and that it may somehow restrict her movement(s) when fighting. The nice thing about this is that she *does* look like she's Protected by her armor, without the armor looking Big and Bulky ... but it still looks like "garage tech" armor of the kitbash variety, rather than something custom fitted and purposefully built for her.

I *tried* evolving Valkyrie's look using the Valkyrie costume pieces ... but the Shoulders (especially with the wings on them!), the Gloves (not the Smooth/Bare ones) and Boots (with wing motifs) are just so HUGE on her frame ... and this is a 7 ft tall woman here(!) ... that you just *look* at them and think, "how is she going to move around in that getup without telegraphing all her movements to her enemies when fighting?" Ironically, the sheer size of the valkyrie shoulders, gloves and boots made her "look small" inside of them (despite being "hugely tall") and somehow ridiculously proportioned ... with oversized feet, hands and shoulders on a (now) too small body frame.

Needless to say, bulking up her Chest and Bottom pieces with Armored parts, didn't exactly help either. Even worse, the selections in the Armored top and bottom menus didn't really offer a "good look" for Valkyrie that would *look good* for a character like her. In part, that's because you wind up having to revert to the original pieces for lack of much of anything better to work with.

So after rejecting the "Go Large" option of big, rattle-y armored pieces ... I decided to go the other direction, in response to those Marvel pics of Thera posted upthread (and which I quoted in my previous post). Instead of going for a "Plate Mail" sort of look, or even a "Tech Plate Mail" kind of appearance, I was thinking more in terms of going minimalist ... with a result of "less ARMOR bulk, more Woman Warrior" kind of effect ... where you pay less attention to the costume, and more attention to the person wearing it. The thing that I like about the Metallic Tights is not that it's "shiny" or reflective, but that it looks like ARMOR ... but is more of a High Tech, *sleek* aesthetic, that looks like the wearer has total freedom of movement, and could do gymnastics while wearing it.

And that appearance of being *protected*, while at the same time totally free to move yields a "look" that is almost totally at odds with the original Valkyrie costume. The original costume looks "functional" and yet in some ways "limited" by its own appearance (rattle rattle, some freedom of movement restrictions). Valkyrie's original costume looks imposing in a DEFENSIVE way, in that it looks like it would "take work" to punch through it in order to do any damage to her ... but it doesn't look too terribly imposing in an OFFENSIVE way in terms of what she can "do to you" when you face off against her. The Metallic Tights (in my mind, anyway) changes that impression of her. It makes her look much less encumbered by her own armor, and therefore much more Predatory and Dangerous. The sleek Metallic parts look "well crafted" ... as opposed to being a hand-me-down or cobbled together in a garage from spare parts ... and purposefully made for Valkyrie *specifically*. The Metallic appearance also makes her look faster in terms of how quickly she can/could move in battle (swing her sword, use her spear, recover from parries, etc.).

In my mind, at least, going with a sleeker, Metallic Tights styled armored look makes Valkyrie look more imposing in an Offensive way ... while yielding up only a minimal tradeoff loss in Defensive protection potential (if any). And then there's that whole Purposefully Custom Built High Tech vs Scrounged Scrapyard Low Tech thing going on, too ... which brings its own set of prejudices and assumptions.

The thing is ... I still wanted to get "wings" on the costume somewhere other than just the headpiece. Fortunately, the Justice costume pieces have stylistic flourishes to them that look like "wings" without going overboard. The Justice parts also hybridize nicely with the clean lines (and curves) of Metallic Tights so as to not clash, stylistically, with the rest of the costume. This then gives nicely balanced "echoes of a theme" continuity to disparate parts of the costume, helping to tie everything together.

Plus ... let's be honest with ourselves here. You can't dress up Valkyrie in an all golden, All Valkyrie Parts costume ... simply because that's what Battle Maiden is wearing (in all iron greys and olive drabs) over in Neutropolis! You want Valkyrie to *look different* visually from Battle Maiden (who she's "kinda sorta" linked to, no matter how you might want to explain it away). You don't want to put them both in the exact same costume parts with only a color change! That both looks and feels lazy! Which basically means that an "All Valkyrie Look" for *Valkyrie* is "out" simply because that "look" is already being used by someone else.

So I took "my" Valkyrie (costume) over to stand by Battle Maiden in Neutropolis and grab a screenshot ... just so you can appreciate the differences. Note that "my" Valkyrie costume is unchanged from the first set of screenshots where I had her standing beside the "original" Valkyrie in Steel Canyon ...



Which one looks like the High Tech sidekick of Positron/Keyes ... and which one doesn't?



And just for giggles, I had "my" Valkyrie draw her Legacy Broadsword while standing next to Battle Maiden ... just to show the contrast.



Anyone want to lay wagers on whether or not this would be a "fair fight" between (my) Valkyrie and Battle Maiden ... just based on looks ... if they were to go at each other in a comic book? All I know is that the two of them would have very different fighting styles ... where Valkyrie would be relying on her height, reach and unencumbered mobility to get past an opponent's guard to "do some damage" to them. Battle Maiden, on the other hand, would fight in more of a "turtle mode" (relatively speaking) where she offers few openings or weak points and takes hits on her armor to negate/mitigate incoming damage. It would be a fight of the Quick and Defensive vs the Resistant and Wrathful, I'm thinking.

I see (my) Valkyrie as being more of a Willpower Scrapper ... and Battle Maiden as more of an Invulnerability Brute ... just in terms of appearances based on these costumes. And yes, I know that Valkyrie is listed in the Paragon Wiki as a Regen Scrapper ... but I also know that Willpower didn't exist when Valkyrie was conceptualized pre-Launch.



Oh and in case it wasn't already clear ... thanks for the reply David!

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

/em blushes

Thank you.

Yeah. It does. And its only upon (personal) reflection, no pun intended, hours later and looking at it again that *this* sort of metallic look for Valkyrie just really *feels right* for her.

And to be fair to the original artist(s) who created Valkyrie pre-Launch, I'm using quite a few costume parts which weren't available for them to work with "back in the day" and so this exact "look" for Valkyrie simply wouldn't have been possible to do until recently. The art team would still need to graft on the Spear and Baldric unique pieces to finish out the design, but that's not exactly something I can help them with.

Okay ... is anyone else feeling chills running down their spine?

DAVID ... you know those CoT costumes you did which previewed at SDCC and which spawned a big backlash here in the forums? Yeah ... THOSE. I want you to walk over to Protean's office (when you can find the time) and ask him if War Earth has any Circle of Thorns (or their analogues) in it ... and if Valkyrie (and possibly even Battle Maiden!) may *unknowingly* be "linked" in some way to them. I'm thinking that those new CoT costumes you made, which the players have rejected for Primal Earth CoT, might be VERY useful for depicting any Circle of "Thorns" from WAR EARTH!

Valkyrie herself is from Primal Earth, but her weapon (which "made" her Valkyrie) is from War Earth. Battle Maiden is from War Earth ... but did she "escape" to Praetoria, which would mean that Battle Maiden is a fugitive from her own dimension? Is there a Circle of "Thorns" in War Earth, that is Tech Based, rather than Magic ... and if so, do they want Battle Maiden and Valkyrie's Spear (and thus, Valkyrie herself) ... back?

And do not forget Clarke's Third Law ... that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic!

Does anyone else hear The Wheels of Possibilities for stories to tell starting to turn ...?

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

They aren't synonyms. "Valkyrie" means "Chooser of the slain" (where "val" refers to the dead and "kyrja" is a cognate of "choose" going through a couple of mutations)

Battle-Maiden OTOH is of french origin and means well, battle-maiden.

It also tends to be used for describing certain character's with somewhat "techy" looks, the Asgardians of Thor, Galactus, The New Gods etc. all look very distinctively Kirbytech. (and so do characters that have been created to ape the style, like Thanos)

I stand corrected. Though Valkyries are often referred to as Odin's battle maidens in literature (not sure about the Eddas themselves though), I suppose the word I was looking for is analogous.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059