Art Poll: Signature Characters

I just want to point out that I never said she shouldn't use any valkyrie armor parts. I just don't think they should be the focus. I can't really say that I like your particular example, but the idea of using some of the parts is fine.

Changing the CoT removed their actual theme. While there's actually been a fair amount of debate over which revamp suggestions work the best, most signature character revamps are trying to enhance their theme.

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Mission Architect Handyman

Apples and Oranges. Or maybe Lemons and Oranges.

The CoT revamp was viewed as taking an iconic look and downgrading it to a generic look that did NOT tell their story, to use the phraseology of the OP. It had nothing to do with the act of up revamping them and everything to do with the results of the revamp.

I'm not even sure where you get the idea that anybody is calling for a complete revamp of a signature character into something completely different. David's description of enhancements to Hamidon, for instance, are all about enhancing its built-in characteristics. I would expect that any change to an existing character would be a similar thing.

Heck, before we got sidetracked into "Characters that don't comply with the OP and here's why and how it might be fixed", the thread was all about which characters DO represent their story/genre well and could be conceivably brushed up in subtle ways or even used as examples for making less expressive characters become more expressive.

ObArtPoll:

I should add Malaise as a character whose look DOES express his story to some extent. His special pants scream "psychadelic", which is one reason that so many people want them for their characters. He's the guy who "paints with your senses" and his outfit supports that idea.

You know, I can’t really argue with that and I do think it is a very valid criticism of a number of CoH signature characters. In comics, the character’s name and look probably most frequently speaks to their powers and abilities. To some degree, this is a disconnection between what is possible and/or easily doable in the MMO world vs. comics. If Plastic Man weren’t already a licensed property, sticking a character with that name into CoX might make for a nifty character but he would have to be radically re-imagined in order to make our available powers and abilities fit with his name.

While Swan Lake may have well been an influence on the character and her Praetorian counterpart seven years ago, it hasn’t made it into the canon (to my knowledge) and to do so now would seem a little bandwagon-ish so soon after the success of Black Swan. If I were given the task of filling in her backstory to make it groove a little better with her name and look, I’d probably go to the story of the Ugly Duckling and make that first manifestation of her powers a transformative thing. It wouldn’t necessarily have to be an actual factual physical transformation either – maybe just the emergence of her powers gave a former shy, quiet, and homely girl the confidence to change the way the others perceive her. Heck, maybe her Swan persona is just something she psychically or mystically projects into people’s minds and she still is that Plain Jane with personal body issues that keep her from showing her true face. These suggestions may be quick and easy and even a little cliché but it is honestly a little difficult to rectify a bird-themed superheroine with psychic powers in my mind. Sometimes the path of least resistance is best.

I was sort of half-pondering this question while I was getting lunch. An answer popped unbidden out of my sub-conscious that seemed completely appropriate but that probably shows my age. heh.

If you took the Tarot Card Aura from the origin pack and modified it into a Zener Card Aura, that would shout "Psychic", IMO, without actually saying anything limiting about the origin. Zener cards are the symbol cards that were all the rage for doing ESP experiments several decades ago. They look like this:



I think I'm going to have to figure out whether Jay's thread or one of David's art threads is the more appropriate place and register a suggestion.

I'd could see them making her hover as well: Its not a common move on fashion run ways, and would reinforce her name.

None of which has ANYTHING, bar name, to do with Valkyrie. She's NEVER exhibited any affiliation with Norse mythos, Valhalla, or even anything semi-mythic/mystic in any way, shape or form.

She's a TECH hero, who's the Sidekick of Positron. Ergo, 'mythic' and anything like it has literally 0% to do with her.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Good and bad are pretty subjective concepts. Again, Rob Leifeld didn’t ruin stylized anatomy in comics or for all time. Many acclaimed comics artists have exaggerated styles without suffering the slings and arrows that Leifeld has in his career. Let’s face it: A fair bit of the criticism that he gets for his artistic style is as much about sloppy business practices, alleged plagiarism, and poor work habits. At the peak of his career, there wasn’t near as many voices decrying his art as there are today. He seemed pretty popular to those of us who were around back in the day.

I’m speaking purely of the character appearance as it relates to physique and costuming and using idealization as a convenient term. You seem to be suggesting that all heroines should comply to your view of what they should be – which again seems totally focused on the idea that the character’s appearance MUST somehow instantaneously transmit the character’s capabilities to any and all viewers. And my definition is the one that is narrow?

I can get what you’re saying from the viewpoint of a consumer but since you have to share this particular product with a number of other people, expecting the NPCs to fall in line with your rules of characterization doesn’t seem terribly fair for the rest of us. For my part, I’m only suggesting that a couple characters who have been portrayed in-game and in other media as being a little bit in the sexpot mold not be radically redesigned. I’m not asking them to remove all modesty options for the character creator or make over every female NPC. I’m not asking them to re-name the franchise into City of Sexpots. A little credit please.

We can agree to disagree but I would submit that there is room in superheroic genre for female characters of all stripes, shapes, and sizes. Some ladies will be pure cheesecake and some will be rock solid vigilantes and most will fall in between those two extremes. My only suggestion to you and to anyone who will listen is that there can be a place for the female character who wears clothing that might be more appropriate for your much maligned Victoria Secret photo shoot. The industry seems to back up my claim and while I realize that is something you may disagree with, you have a lot of hearts and minds to change besides mine.

Nor did I say it did. Allow me to quote myself:

Wanna know where I got the inference of Norse influenced culture? Her NAME. It's the same with Battle Maiden. A name says a lot about a character. If the devs wanted a purely tech sidekick for Posi then why bother with the Norse mythology schtick at all? They might as well have have called her Generic Techy Gal and have done with it. But no, they decided to give her some flavour. She's the product of a civilisation of high tech and Norse mythological stylings. It's called adding depth to concept.

The armour should say something about the place it came from. It needs to reflect the cultural influence. In this case War Earth (or Warrior Earth). Seriously, take away the headband wings and what you have left is boring generic low-res tech armour which says NOTHING.

You can keep saying "She's tech so she must look techy" all you want. All it serves to do is to reduce her character to a one-dimensional stereotype.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

I think the same.
Have you guys seen the Thor movie?
He is mythic, but there was some kind of tech too in Asgard, and the characters were wearing metallic armors with a bit techy flavour.
I see Valkyrie as something similar.

This sums it up quite nicely to me. She can be tech-y and somewhat mythic at the some time. It's tech with a decorative overlay. Were we to update this model, that's the balance I'd like to strike.

You could give her a rune aura over tech armor.

I think she needs a unique underlay, perhaps a modified version of the current Valkyrie set but with tech/cyber muscle contours rather than the scalemail. Perhaps even the Valk armour could get a custom job too, maybe with glowing parts. The headband wings can be a hi res Valkyried version of the current headband wings (but available to players also, coz I wants it, precious!). That way her unique parts would be the Cyber-Valkyrie underlay and her spear.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

Fine. I just got uber-veto'd by the Art Lord.

HOWEVER; If that's the case, then she is going to need a unique model. Because NOTHING in the CC looks good enough to express that. The Valkyrie parts, frankly, do not suit Valkyrie. Yes, that's just my opinion. Given the only opinion I have that is backed up by some capability is art and design and suchnot...

Oh, who the frag am I kidding? It'll either happen, or it won't.

Just, please, don't do anything as...'radical' as the proposed CoT revamp? You know, the one that generated an entire thread of 'Do not want for CoT'.

/rant. It's been one of those nights. If I felt I could beat the art block I'd try and draw some proper concepts....******* block ¬¬

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

I really like the look of most all the signature chars and actually did start playing the game after seeing issue 18 and 19 at my comic shop and buying them. Was very happy to have a comic superhero MMO to play with its own comic, which ended with issue 20 lol. It was a good month and a half run for me.

Which I can't think of a single psychic character using in the comics.

Marvel Girl?

Phoenix?

Psylock?

Emma Frost?

Charles Xavier?

None of them.

0-o

Your point being...? No costume element is worth doing if it was never used in a comic book before?

I'd be pretty surprised if you found any aura from the origin pack that had been used in a comic book before.

Are you under the impression that I was claiming that a Zener Card aura is a classic comic book look or something? I'm not. It was just an idea that popped into my head that, if I saw it, would suggest ESP or clairvoyance and which could also be easily adapted from an existing game element. Clearly, your mileage may vary.

If you are seeing my suggestion as some sort of assertion about comic books then I can clear that up - it is nothing of the sort. Comic book psychics are still just as murky as you originally suggested. My suggestion was aimed at a way of clearing up the murk in City of Heroes. It had nothing to do with comic books or any particular psychic/psionic comic book character. In fact, in a comic book world where psychics, psionics, espers and assorted other mentalists are an established fact of every day life, it seems unlikely that something like Zener cards would ever have been invented in the first place. There'd be no need for them. It's hardly surprising that it would be difficult or impossible to name a comic book character that utilized them.

Heck, if we were going to stick to comic book elements then "psychic" characters in City of Heroes probably ought to have radiating circles coming out of their heads or something since THAT is a pretty common comic book representation of projected psychic abilities.

Or maybe just give them an emote like this one: ;-)



*EDIT*

Don't get too hung up on comic books. They're just one medium out of many that encompasses the superhero genre. Commando Cody was on the cinema screen decades before The Rocketeer ever was drawn, inked, and colored. The Shadow appeared in pulp novels and radio dramas before he ever graced a comic. Likewise, the Green Hornet and Doc Savage and a host of others.

Hercules is one of the earliest examples we have a of SuperHero, even though the Greeks and Romans wouldn't have thought of him in the way we mean it in modern Western culture. He served a substantially similar purpose in their culture, though, that Superman serves in ours.

Maybe all psychics should wear togas and olive or laurel crowns? Maybe all psychics should dress as Gypsy fortune tellers? I'm not sure how illustrating "psychic" in City of Heroes has anything directly to do with comic books, any more than it has to do directly with film, books, or ancient mythology.

Heck, this guy would count as a Tech Hero by most City of Heroes standards and he knows all about Zener cards:



;-) He probably has appeared in comics and he's certainly appeared in a number of movies, cartoons, and video games. Film is his defining medium but it doesn't make Peter Venkman any less of a superhero for being a film-based hero instead of a comic book hero. City of Heroes is a super hero game first and foremost; not a comic book simulator. The existence or non-existence of some element in comic books is largely irrelevant to the question of whether that element ought to exist in the game or not.

Exceeeeeeeeept that her bio says otherwise.

Which basically means she took on a new persona, "Valkyrie", because the nanites in the spear, and given this info...

...we see that Battle Maiden hails from the same place as Valkyries spear. Battle Maiden's minions have a very Viking like aesthetic to them. Therefore it is logical to assume that Valkyries name wasn't some arbitrary "because-it was-available" choice, rather it was the result of a culture highly influenced by Norse myth.

----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.
Union: @ominousvoice2059

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.