Quote:
This is really it. Actually, visually I *prefer* Knockback. It's a staple of comics. Nothing says superhero much more than Superman or Hulk slamming mobs thru walls. But our game just isn't built for that kind of stuff.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The game mechanics direct critters to line up like bowling pins, only closer, and be killed by throwing a quarter at them and watching it bounce between their foreheads until they fall down. People say that's what's good about this game: that you can vaporize tons of foes simultaneously and that's part of what makes the players feel mighty. But seeing what its done to City of Heroes, and in particular what its done to both AoE and knockback - and I'm talking about the attitudes towards both, not the actual effects - I hope this is an object lesson out there that ensures that no MMO dev team, anywhere, for all time, ever makes the same mistake again.
There are some things you simply cannot give players, because when they take it and run with it they'll run face first into a tree. One of those things is the impression that massed kills is a player right. Knockback wouldn't be as much of a problem if the critters didn't present stupidly grouped targets for AoE, or contrawise they had reinforcing buffs just like players that made them far more powerful and dangerous when you *let* them remain stupidly grouped together. The big problem with knockback really is that many players would rather the critters not move at all from the instant they are spawned, so all movement short of being taunted into a pile is considered bad. The mechanics of knockback only make it more difficult to make knockback have pros and cons, like immobilize has pros and cons, because of its extremely quirky nature when it comes to how it interacts with resistance and protection. |
That would be the ultimate solution. Make KB ubiquitous (most thematically appropriate powers do it), and welcome (tweak the game mechanics so that it's beneficial, maybe extra damage from getting slammed, etc)
I like knockdown. I like 100% chance knockback. I don't like random-chance to knockback. I value concept and character more than game mechanics, meaning not all my toons with be able to hover-blast. I won't stop you from using knockback, and I'll never kick you out of a team for using it. But an option to to avoid knockback? Yes, please.
Option to turn off knockback in Pocket D? Yes, please.
Option to slot decent acc/dam/end/rech/-knockback IO sets into knockback powers? Yes, please.
Costless toggle to turn off knockback in powers? Yes, please.
Option to reduce the basic knockback magnitude of all knockback powers to 0.67? Yes, please.
Eliminating knockback from the game? No thanks, some people like it.
Memphis_Bill, thanks for not fighting this. I don't know why you felt the need to oppose it till exhaustion, but it's good that you've stopped. Even if it never happens, having one less guy defending the virtues of knockback in the hands of those rare few blessed with leet skills is a step in the right direction.
Quote:
The proper answer is "get rid of it."
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No.
NO. A HUNDRED BAZILLION GOOGOLPLEX TIMES NO! KB is baked in as part of most of these powers' balance. Remove the mitigation of KB and what you have left are powers with no mitigation and substandard damage. And you STILL have various and sundry mental defectives weeping and raging over people who refuse to cripple themselves by turning KB off. The proper answer isn't "get rid of if". The proper answer is "adapt, overcome". |
Quote:
That's because they've seen the alternative, and think its actually a good idea. There's no reversing that in this game. In any new game, you'd have no choice in the matter because there would be no exceptions.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
There are a few enemy types who scatter or refuse to move into melee range. Just by adding Super Stunners, Freakshow went from everyone's favorite punching bags to bleah end drain is no fun (autohit sapping). Oh yeah, super stunners will just stand back and never come into melee range. Players mostly fight them the old way and expect the good ol tactics still work. Well, all this did was make players move on to easier mobs.
The Cabal scatter and fly while aggroed and have some annoying debuffs. Not really the most popular mobs to fight by melee types anyways, but pretty easy for controllers/Dominators. I know some players asked for tougher mobs and better AI. I suspect if we made "Smart" mobs who used good team tactics, very few people would fight them. |
Everyone who likes it had better spend as much money as possible on City of Heroes, though, because I doubt you'll ever see it again in your lifetime in quite the same way, because it isn't, actually, a good idea, and we're the poster children that proves it. It has fun aspects, sure, but it ties the developers hands in so many myriad ways most players don't even realize, and will probably never really know.
As MMOs continue to get more sophisticated, enemies will never be this dumb again except deliberately, and no one is going to do this deliberately and have to deal with game-breaking AoE.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I've no problem with knockback (or knockdown, which is just low magnitude knockback), but what I *really* like is knockup. I'd love a knockup focused set with a couple of AoE knockup powers thrown in.
|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I like knockdown. I like 100% chance knockback. I don't like random-chance to knockback.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Some good suggestions, I like the ideas.
I have never played a PB due to the huge amount of KB they have, and I usually shudder when any khled joins a team. That said knockback does have a place in the game. And not just a place in the deepest darkest cavern, buried under rocks. Of course a lot of kb is misused..but it can be very handy. One time on Virtue, I played with a storm/energy defender...sounds ghastly right? But she never seemed to kb anything into a bad position.
One thing with making all KB mags on powers 0 Bill..seems a bit unfair that then, in order to get back your mitigation through kb, you would need to slot for kb, which you normally wouldnt have to. So maybe let people turn KB off via Null as a compramise.
Quote:
It's funny you should say this, because this aspect of City of Heroes AI is one I love so very much. I HATE games where my enemies scatter or run away. Easily the worst, dumbest, most infuriating gaming experience of my life has been the Succubus enemies in the original Diablo. These things would shoot at you from range and then run away when you went to chase them, running as fast as you did so you could never actually catch them unless their limited AI got backed into a corner. HIDEOUS!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As MMOs continue to get more sophisticated, enemies will never be this dumb again except deliberately, and no one is going to do this deliberately and have to deal with game-breaking AoE.
|
I don't want smart AI. I'm perfectly happy fighting dumb enemies who bunch up and get blown up. If AoE is a problem, do the sensible thing and make ALL attacks AoE, like they are in most "Like Devil May Cry, But..." games. You've historically suggested AoEs that split their damage across as many enemies as they hit as opposed to duplicating it, so why not go with that? Have all powers in the game be AoE that drop in yield as they affect more enemies but increase in yield as they affect few or single targets. If focusing fire is an issue, give the character a "stance toggle" that switches between concentrated single-target attacks so as to be able to pick out priority targets in a crown or spread fire to attack all enemies at the same time.
Or design many of the game's factions to spawn single boss-level enemies that get stronger as more enemies attack them, instead of spawning more enemies. That way, you have instances where AoE is king because your enemies are many and weak, and you have instances where single-target is king because AoE is wasted on a single boss.
There are ways to make games fun and balanced without making the AI smarter. Not all of us want smart AI. And, yes, I do intend to invest a lot of money in City of Heroes, because it's the only game which features many of the things I like, even if many of those are considered to have been mistakes. I like my overpowered characters, I like fighting large hordes with AoE, I like being able to solo and so forth.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I like my overpowered characters, I like fighting large hordes with AoE, I like being able to solo and so forth.
|
CoH, is, after all, a superhero MMO. If you want to play a grunt there's always Counterstrike and Modern Warfare.
Not saying the AI couldn't be better (I hate it when enemies run away), but let's keep in mind that when I play a hero or a villain, part of what I'm looking for is being almost invincible, except for the occasional challenge by another super-powered rival.
Quote:
Must admit - so do I. And when I'm soloing I don't terribly mind KB. Seeing hordes of bodies rag-dolling thru the air has its own appeal, and the dumb AI always brings them back to me |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
...I like fighting large hordes with AoE, I like being able to solo and so forth.
|
...does slow me down, as we've all been discussing though.It's too late to change enemy AI in this game, and making all attacks AoE attacks isn't going to happen. Somehow, KB must be made more beneficial, so that people don't mind scattered mobs quite as much. Extra smashing damage (like a proc that goes off everytime KB effects happen) might help...
Just to throw out a wild idea, I was playing another game, which had an interesting view on knocking foe down. You knock them off their feet and they get a Toppled status. What does that do? Apart from letting you do some Topple only moves, it also removes damage resistances on the enemy. Some bosses are practically invincible unless you knock them off their feet. Obviously, some NPC types need to keep their invincibility, like drones and civilians, but it'd be interesting if you could remove damage resistance or defense from a foe as long as they're ragdolling. Then lower the AV KB resist so it's plausible for someone with a dedicated KB attack to knock them down.
Food for thought, at least, but honestly, I'm happy with KB as it is. I could come with other ideas to improve it, sure, but the only problem I have with it is that it's early impossible to overcome the KB resistance on tough targets. Do AVs really need to have an effective mag 1000 KB resist? 100 is reachable, if you try hard enough, 1000 isn't.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
Quote:
Hmmmm...veddy interestink. I like the way you think |
Originally Posted by McNum
Just to throw out a wild idea, I was playing another game, which had an interesting view on knocking foe down. You knock them off their feet and they get a Toppled status. What does that do? Apart from letting you do some Topple only moves, it also removes damage resistances on the enemy. Some bosses are practically invincible unless you knock them off their feet. Obviously, some NPC types need to keep their invincibility, like drones and civilians, but it'd be interesting if you could remove damage resistance or defense from a foe as long as they're ragdolling. Then lower the AV KB resist so it's plausible for someone with a dedicated KB attack to knock them down....
|
Quote:
Correct. The problem is the players who are so efficiency-minded that "KB slows down teams' kill rate - look, I made a graph" seems like a reasonable thing to do in regard to a game as far as they're concerned. These people should be concentrating their talent for Ruthless Optimization on something that's worth their time and benefits society, like fixing the world economy, not annoying the rest of us who are just trying to enjoy the way our superpowers send thugs flying off of balconies.
|
Originally Posted by cybermitheral
The problem isnt Knockback powers.
|
Quote:
Oh please, don't bring real world stuff up like that. No one is getting THAT bent out of shape about it. If we get right down to it, we could ALL be spending the time and money we devote to CoH gaming (or any other activity such as wasting time on these forums, drawing, hiking, etc) towards world social and economic concerns.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Correct. The problem is the players who are so efficiency-minded that "KB slows down teams' kill rate - look, I made a graph" seems like a reasonable thing to do in regard to a game as far as they're concerned. These people should be concentrating their talent for Ruthless Optimization on something that's worth their time and benefits society, like fixing the world economy, not annoying the rest of us who are just trying to enjoy the way our superpowers send thugs flying off of balconies.
|
Some people like perfection in their hobbies. I play piano, and I spend a considerable amount of time making songs I already know pretty well even better. Is that a waste as well...?
There is something wrong with a superhero playerbase that hates knockback 
One of my favorite things in any superhero comic, movie, or game is seeing enemies get knocked back. If only in this game they divoted walls and sent allies tumbling when they hit them.
By the way, just this week, I got my first 50... and energy/energy Blaster.
...I think that supports both sides of the argument 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
Honestly, I feel that two things need to happen:|
Originally Posted by Socorro
It's too late to change enemy AI in this game, and making all attacks AoE attacks isn't going to happen. Somehow, KB must be made more beneficial, so that people don't mind scattered mobs quite as much. Extra smashing damage (like a proc that goes off everytime KB effects happen) might help...
|
1. Make knockback always guaranteed on all targets affected. This would reduce scatter significantly and allow people to predict the behaviour of their powers.
2. KILL KILL KILL PBAoE knockback. Any power that's PBAoE and does knockback needs to become either knockdown or a cone. This would allow players to control their knockback without sacrificing effective area coverage.
The rest can, indeed, be put in the hands of the operator.
*edit*
Alternatively, how about this:
When enemies are knocked down, they take some time to get up above and beyond animation and flight time. The higher the knockback mag, the longer the time enemies spend on the ground. If you slam an enemy with mag 10 knockback, he could spend, say, 10-15 seconds on the ground, as opposed to hitting him with knockdown which doesn't delay him at all (anything below 1 doesn't have the delaying effect). That turns knockdown into soft control and knockback into hard control, giving it a stronger benefit to counteract its potential to scatter.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
People just need to put "uses Knockback" in their bios and LFG quotes.
...only slightly kidding.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I have "Forcefields/Energy" as mine on my Defender. I let people extrapolate from there. I do know how to aim properly, though.
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
People just need to put "uses Knockback" in their bios and LFG quotes.
...only slightly kidding. |
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
Quote:
I think there are better ways to do it in the long run than the way City of Heroes does it, which is to say they literally do nothing about it (you don't specifically code critters to "do nothing much"), but that's a matter of debate. What I think isn't a matter of debate is that the set of all game designers in a position to make MMOs doesn't contain enough people that think this is a good idea to make it likely they will ever all find themselves in the same room designing one. If you rebooted City of Heroes with *this* team I doubt there would be enough, and you can tell that Cryptic itself felt strongly this was an error given their very next released game took specific steps to eliminate this situation (and they mostly succeeded). Fun or not, game designers do not want to have to balance MMOs around some people hitting one target and others hitting sixteen constantly.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There are ways to make games fun and balanced without making the AI smarter. Not all of us want smart AI. And, yes, I do intend to invest a lot of money in City of Heroes, because it's the only game which features many of the things I like, even if many of those are considered to have been mistakes. I like my overpowered characters, I like fighting large hordes with AoE, I like being able to solo and so forth.
|
The only way I can see this happening again is if an MMO launches that doesn't actually reward kills, or devalues them substantially. Star Trek Online actually does that to a degree: you get most of your rewards from completing tasks, not destroying ships or critters on the way to completing those tasks, so the game doesn't have to care a lot about whether ship to ship combat or person to person combat is precisely balanced (fortunate, 'cause its not). If mowing down dozens of minions was a thing to do in City of Heroes, but not the primary means of advancement, that might be a future escape hatch to allowing this sort of thing. Otherwise, I honestly cannot see it happening again.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Still, what about your idea for reducing the damage each target suffers the more targets an AoE hits? I mean, you suggested that a few years ago, yourself. I didn't agree with it then, but I've since changed my mind.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
From a game balance perspective, it does temper damage getting out of hand. But then you'd then lose much of your feeling of being mighty by defeating lots of foes relatively quickly.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Still, what about your idea for reducing the damage each target suffers the more targets an AoE hits? I mean, you suggested that a few years ago, yourself. I didn't agree with it then, but I've since changed my mind.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Lol how difficult would this be?...
Okay, a UI option that you toggle on and off by right-clicking then choosing from a menu that then changes your arrow into like a perforated 3D arching arrow that'd control your KB like a golf sim. The arrow stays centered so moving the mouse to the left curves all your KB that way. Pushing the mouse forward aims further forward while pulling back aims up. Scrolling forward increases the speed (and distance) while scrolling back slows down the velocity to a slow aerial tumble. It'd change all your KB per activation while aiming and default to normal when you right click again.
Quote:
To implement, or to use?
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Lol how difficult would this be?...
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I was thinking this earlier today. It's a shame the developers have went in the opposite direction for years, by rewarding killing lots of NPCs as quickly and efficiently as possible. Removing just about every way to do missions without killing things. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The only way I can see this happening again is if an MMO launches that doesn't actually reward kills, or devalues them substantially. Star Trek Online actually does that to a degree: you get most of your rewards from completing tasks, not destroying ships or critters on the way to completing those tasks, so the game doesn't have to care a lot about whether ship to ship combat or person to person combat is precisely balanced (fortunate, 'cause its not). If mowing down dozens of minions was a thing to do in City of Heroes, but not the primary means of advancement, that might be a future escape hatch to allowing this sort of thing. Otherwise, I honestly cannot see it happening again.
|
Ah well.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Either.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To implement, or to use?
|
I figure you never need to always fine control KB but in the instances you do, just a slight shift in the mouse can alter the direction without needing to reposition. I'd say the part that makes this complicated (besides learning how to use it properly...but then you'd have to do that with learning KB regularly) is that it'd disable mouse clicks as a means to activate powers.
As for implementation, my guess ranges from VERY HARD, to 'not in this lifetime'.
Now I'm curious if a similar mechaic has ever been used in an action game to decent effect.
There are a few enemy types who scatter or refuse to move into melee range. Just by adding Super Stunners, Freakshow went from everyone's favorite punching bags to bleah end drain is no fun (autohit sapping). Oh yeah, super stunners will just stand back and never come into melee range. Players mostly fight them the old way and expect the good ol tactics still work. Well, all this did was make players move on to easier mobs.
The Cabal scatter and fly while aggroed and have some annoying debuffs. Not really the most popular mobs to fight by melee types anyways, but pretty easy for controllers/Dominators.
I know some players asked for tougher mobs and better AI. I suspect if we made "Smart" mobs who used good team tactics, very few people would fight them.
There are some things you simply cannot give players, because when they take it and run with it they'll run face first into a tree. One of those things is the impression that massed kills is a player right.
Knockback wouldn't be as much of a problem if the critters didn't present stupidly grouped targets for AoE, or contrawise they had reinforcing buffs just like players that made them far more powerful and dangerous when you *let* them remain stupidly grouped together. The big problem with knockback really is that many players would rather the critters not move at all from the instant they are spawned, so all movement short of being taunted into a pile is considered bad.
The mechanics of knockback only make it more difficult to make knockback have pros and cons, like immobilize has pros and cons, because of its extremely quirky nature when it comes to how it interacts with resistance and protection.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD