A knockback solution.

Hmmmm. My What the hell? Let's buff defenders. thread was born of a similar level of forum induced psychosis. I actually believe MB to be honest here. Based on numerous forums posts and in-game attitudes about defenders I had encountered, I decided that my personal opinion on defenders was likely a significant minority and those made a suggestion that I believe would make most people like defenders and corruptors much more than they currently do.

It seems plausible to me that MB has had the same thing occur to him about KB. That being said, I think his suggestion has significant flaws. While I'd rather them not change KB in general, if they did, I'd prefer a change whereby a much larger range of KB magnitudes is available. I'd also prefer some way to not force people to slot for KB if they want it (unless slotting for KB also included some combination of dam/rech slotting as well).

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EG, you do know what KB is for, right? It's a multi-facet tool for mitigation *and* positioning.

To claim using a multi-use tool in a manner not fully expressed by its text book function is very close minded and constricting. If one were to need to stop a mass of foes surrounding you because you were being overwhelmed, KB Hand clap is just as good as KD but also giving you the room to position yourself.

If you needed to move a set of targets to a (or away from) a location, KB Handclap is the only solution vs KD. You just need to adjust your position so the enemy is on one side of you. KD wouldn't do the job.

If you needed to clear an ally who is surrounded, KB Handclap would easily and quickly accomplish this. KD would require several applications while your (possibly mezzed) friend can get to a safer spot.

The only real advantage KD has over KB is you can do more (melee) damage before needing to change your position. It doesn't offer more mitigation (less in many cases), you don't have the utility of positioning targets and it requires constant reapplication to close the gap between its mitigation and KB's.

In none of these instances is Hand Clap the best solution to the problem, at least in it's current form.

In the first, to maintain aggro for a lot of sets, KB can be detrimental, so KD is the better choice.

In the other examples, you'd be better off moving yourself, and having the aggro follow you, or using Taunt, if they're not aggro'd on you already. In none of those cases would KB be the best power to use. Could it be useful? Yes. Are there better options out there? Yes. Given that, having KB on these powers isn't necessarily a benefit, and swapping it to KD would be a net gain.

It gets even worse when you look at something like Solar Flare, which is intended to be both a damage power and a mitigation power. If you want to make maximum use of the damage part, you have to suffer through the KB of it, and possibly have to chase your target down. If you want to use it as a positioning tool, you have to "waste" damage potential. In neither case can you make efficient use of both functions.

And on sets where you can use KB to knock a target back into a patch, or something like that, your very next attack could knock it back out of the patch. How is that useful?


I still don't get the resistance to allowing the individual player to choose whether they get KB or KD out of a currently KB power. Any of you who had to deal with jerks who don't like KB wouldn't see any more or less of that, so it stays the same for you. But those of us that don't like the additional KB magnitude on these powers could remove it.

And I submit that (IMO), in neither case is it appropriate to start a new thread just to throw up one's hands and sigh loudly, "FINE, have it YOUR way. I've TRIED to be fair and tolerant and work out a compromise, but you lot aren't having any of it." Hitching up your skirts and flouncing off the stage is optional.

The way to actually give up on the argument is to stop posting and let the other side have the last word (which, ironically, may end up never having any effect on the game - such is the pettiness and futility of forum debate, especially here). Don't grandstand, don't call attention to yourself or the fact that you're leaving now (right now, any minute, after this next post I swear), and don't try to get in one last shot against the meanyheads. Just go.

Finally, free tip from someone who's been there: no one cares about generic-your forum rep half as much as you do. And to the extent anyone does care, still-generic-you aren't doing yourself any favors by trying to defend it. People will make their own judgments.

And yet you (non generic you) step in to a thread specifically to attack motives that aren't there and question me (non generic me.)

I find that interesting, with the above quote.

After all, if "no one cares," then nobody should attack or question motives... which you, personally, did... which indicates SOME degree or sort of caring about that sort of thing. You don't see dissonance there?

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That's quite a lot of assumptions. Basically assumptions that would never apply to any character I would create, but let's move forward.

There is no such situation in the game that I am aware of. Could you please identify this NPC and what attack.

I can think of another option. Don't build/play to get yourself into such a situation. I'm struggling mightily to design this scenario in my head. Seriously, I don't have a character among the 40 or so I have that would ever have to wait 7 seconds before attacking.

Not flawed at all. The scenario you posit doesn't exist.

Detrimental to who? If *you* are being overwhelmed, you're better alive than dead. If there are allies around and you do end up dead, KD foes will only give the team a second to adjust vs several seconds.

And doing that gets rid of the one advantage KD has in that situatio : speed of melee damage. No one likes to wait for herders as it is (except maybe the AoE nazis) so to taunt then move and *wait* just makes wastes as much time as if you just scatter them with KB.

Or what if other KB/KD is present? That make the alternate process take longer.

And this is strictly KD vs KB. KB + taunt beats out KD + taunt for mitigation every time unless you are constantly reapplying it.

My only Kheld is a PB and I still don't understand the hate behind Solar Flare. It's not like a PB has a whole lot of PBAoEs or auras that they need to chain for max effect. And while those foes are on the ground that's plenty of time to throw out a cone, shift into nova and throw out another.

KB enhances other KB. You can simply knock the target back in again. Meanwhile the target is helpless.


Well currently, I don't deal with any complaints except for the occasional mis-timed gale when an ally lays down an ice slick at the same time. Other than that, people deal with occasionally chasing down a target while I blow the foes back into my rain patches. Or on my Energy/fire or DP/fire, the foes are simply dead. Can't complain about dead foes.

Can you promise no one will ever even passively suggest I turn off my KB or some such?

I understand that. As mitigation, it's downsides far outweigh KD. As a tool for 'positioning' NPCs, I would offer that there are very few instances in this game where you need to position an NPC where a taunt power wouldn't do it better.

KD would work just as well. If an ally is surrounded, KD allows you to give them a breather and position YOURSELF to kill them more effectively.

KD avoids scatter. Scatter is the bane of AoE damage. AoE damage maximizes killing. Killing what is trying to kill you is and always will be better mitigation than anything KB offers. The only character that might need KB is a ST focused ranged character.

You're dodging the question entirely. Trying to, if you'll pardon the phrase, lawyer your way out of it. (And ignoring such things as "You've been debuffed to the point where your next attack won't recharge in 7 seconds" - you've *NEVER* seen a pack of Ink Men, for instance - or something in AE - that could do this? I have.)

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No, I'm not. There is no such situation. I'm talking about the game as it actually exists, not made up situations tailor made to make it so that using a KB power is the only option.

And the "dodging" accusation is poor argument. If such a situation exists, please define the parameters:

The team;
Your players AT; primary; secondary
The enemy group;
The mission.

Then I will happily answer the question. Because I suspect that once you define the parameters properly, that a more optimal solution will present itself. For example, once I know the primary and secondary, I can talk about what powers might be available to the character. If you continue to be cagey, then I'll just pick a situation that could possibly apply. Then, you'll complain that I changed the rules. So please give me enough information to answer your question.

What is going on in your scenario? Give me the facts.

I'd say your argument *is* flawed. You basically admit you min/max your build to marginalize external mitigation and KB itself. This is not a flaw in the mechanic, a discrepency of the game or a qualifier to alter the game into your ideal scenario.

You see, the characters you build are maximized for herds and minimilized in dispersed situations. I build many of my characters to capitilize on both. I suppose you only have yourself to blame for your incapable build.

*pat's EG on the back sypmathetically* :P

>_<

I did not say a KB power. I said a nuke. While some (Energy, for instance) do KB, others do not (Electric, Fire, Ice come to mind.) You can replace that with "Generic high damage AOE" if you're so hung up on KB.

I suggest, given your comments, you re-read precisely the situation I described. Teammates at low health/stunned/generally unable to do anything *right now* and in danger from a boss. Your one attack that's recharged and ready to go, thanks to the fight that otherwise is just finished, is a high damage AOE - or, as mentioned, brawl and temp powers. Your other attacks won't be back before that boss attacks thanks to a lot of stacked recharge debuffs (and if you DON'T think that exists, you have not been paying attention. One of the - believe it's 20-30 Safeguards - has a good chance of putting you against EXACTLY that if you go to stop a jailbreak.)

This isn't about KB, this is about "Maximal utilization of a power is always the optimal strategy by definition." (Maximal, itself, not being an appropriate word in this statement, but being taken as "If the power won't give you the most bang for the buck, it's not appropriate to use." A high damage AOE is meant to give a lot of damage to multiple enemies. You don't have multiple enemies in this scenario. You have one, with two options - as if you wait for an "appropriate" attack - ST, doing rougly the boss's health in damage - the team WILL die. Thanks to the prior fight, they have no breakfrees to break out of the stun they're in, and are low enough on insps they can't combine.)

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OK. Here's my solution. Going to fill in a few facts. My character is a Peacebringer. The remainder of the team are all either Blasters, Corruptors, or Defenders. None have mez protection of their own. The boss at issue is a Dark Dwarf about to use Mire. We're on the second mission of the ITF. Why that boss and those powers? Well, I wanted to pick a character with a KB causing nuke as you stated. I also wanted to select a boss and enemy group that does -recharge. I am trying as hard to stay in the parameters of your scenario while still giving myself enough information to propose a strategy.

Legend:

1 - Me
2-8 - Teammates
B - Boss
X - Other critters

Set-up:

X X 5X 4 XX
X X 3 1 B 7
X 2 X 6 X 8

The only power I have available is Dawn Strike and Brawl. My solution....jump to the SW.

EvilGeko's proposed solution

X X 5X 4 XX
X X 3 B 7
X 2 X 6 X 8

1

That's my action. Considering that everyone else is mezzed/stunned/whatever, the aggro should be on me, at least the boss anyway. This should induce the following behavior in the spawn:

5 4
3 7
X 2 X 6 XX 8
X X
X B X
1 X

The NPC will move over to me. The Mire might hit me, which will hurt. But my teammates will be alive. As ranged based characters they will be able to attack immediately. The Blasters should be attacking with their Tier 1&2 powers already. If I had instead used Dawn Strike, it is entirely possible that I would have killed much of the spawn. However, I would be in a very vulnerable state. All endurance gone, the crystal either exploded (which would spawn the ambush) or close to it. It is not a good idea to use the nuke in that instance.

I don't think your scenario provides a reasonable test of this statement, nor do I believe your paraphrase captures the sentiment properly.

Flowery, rhetorical flourish. But it misses the mark. Building so that KB isn't useful is no denunciation to me. I consider it great praise.

Show me where I stated "A KB causing nuke." Especially when I specifically said:

1. Not all nukes cause KB, and
2. Replace with "High damage AOE" if you're so hung up on KB.

I swear, trying to get just a simple, straight answer out of you, and you still try to manipulate it. Tot he point of making your teammates blasters when I said, specifically,

"low health/stunned/generally unable to do anything *right now*"

The situation I put out there has *jack all* to do with KB.

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Nevertheless, my answer stands. You did say a nuke. By which I took you to mean one of the high-damage powers that drain you of all endurance. As for the Blasters, you said "generally unable to do anything" Let's just say they are recharge debuffed as well and so can't do anything.

It doesn't matter. Don't use the power. Jump and pull the aggro from the team, lest you burn all your endurance and make matters worse. Now as you changed it to "high damage AoE" then of course you use the power. If the power in question was Shield Charge, then hell yeah I'm going to use it. Gladly. But then, that's a maximal use of the power so my premise is maintained.

I note, that you did exactly what I said you would. When I filled in the facts, you quarreled with my fleshing out of the scenario and ignored that I provided a tactically sound solution other than what you suggested.

If we're looking specifically at a nuke, with one or two exceptions, with one target they won't drain you of endurance on one target. That aside...

... before you answered, well before, so you had plenty of opportunity to see it and I was trying to get you out of "KB," but hey....
And yet you're against using knockback - even PBAOE knockback - against fewer targets than it's designed to hit (less than "maximal," which again, is improper use of the term, whether you're talking math, Transformers or art, and thus is an empty phrase here leading to nothing but assumption on what you mean,) regardless of how it's used.

That aside, how is using Shield Charge a "maximal" use of the power when using, say, Inferno, Omega Maneuver, Dawn Strike, Thunderous Blast, etc are not, which you suggest above with your "I move..." line?

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You "Fleshed it out?" No, you added in qualifiers to a simple scenario to make it more complicated and weight it in your favor.

It's like asking "What do you like for dinner?" and being asked about table settings, the weather, what kind of car would be used to go to dinner if going there, what the traffic's like, what sort of lunch you had last week and the color of the carpet. None of that *matters,* but you want to obscure and tilt it so far out of the way with irrelevant BS to try to "make a point." Just say freaking "Steak" or "Fish" or something.

I'll also point out YOU were saying I was asking for things that I *was not.* Such as "A KB causing nuke."

You also filled in "Other critters," which I DID NOT HAVE IN THAT SCENARIO. They are, fortunately,d ead. They can, however, still have debuffed the team before dying.

Possible result with MY specific description and YOUR actions?

Boss stays aggroed on one of the mezzed characters, fires off attack, kills the rest of the team while you're dancing around. Congrats. Enjoy your team wipe.

You did not FILL IN FACTS. You make crap up. BIG difference. And it's part of why I hate trying to discuss anything with you, because after pages of posts of you doing that until the original question or statement is so BOGGED DOWN and BURIED under piles of nonsense, you suddenly decide "See, I was right!" when you haven't answered a DAMN THING other than whatever you make up.

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Nonsense.

No, it's like being asked how to handle a tactical scenario after being told. Somebody is going to shoot you and your friends. You have a bazooka and nothing else. What do you do? It's a biased question intended to lead to only one result. I didn't take the bait. Sorry.

As I said, take that out then. But again, you're arguing over my assumptions instead of my solution. My solution still works with your initial scenario with no changes. Jump to the SW. Don't use the 'high-damage AoE'.

Umm... Are you seriously complaining that I made up stuff in order to counter your made up stuff? And you feel no cognitive dissonance from that making that statement?

The KB argument is like the "RU Healer" arguments. It's a neverending battle like the Fir Bolg and the Tuantha. We are cursed to re-fight this fight for all eternity or when the game shuts down. Whichever comes first.

I'm discussing something specifically with geko that has nothing to do with KB. Even if he reads other things in.

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