A knockback solution.

I remember once, somewhere, suggesting negative enhancements to reduce magnitude, in case you didn't like some secondary effect. Even though people brought up some potential problems, I still like the general idea.

I'm forced to agree with the OP. Specifically: I'm tired of this argument.

If the devs aren't changing knockback globally, I don't have a problem. If they decide to change it globally, my problem is with the devs. Either way, I see no possible practical consequence to debating it, and I've been debating it for the longest time of anyone currently still here.

While we're on the subject of knockback, can we please kill Lt. Sefu Tendaji, like, for real? Or at the very least get him to turn off his damn Repulsion Field and stop using his Force Bolt so much? I know we're supposed to like the guy because he's nice and honest, but damn it, man! I'd like you more if you didn't try to "help" me! He's worse than Fiusionette. I know, she was in my previous mission.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

At this point we are just beating a dead horse. My PB has been retired for 4 years and looks to be retired for the forseeable future.

KB makes teams slower, yeah I've known that for a long time. AoE is king and buff/debuff breaks the game. AoE KB sucks and slows teams down.

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Originally Posted by Socorro People always say 'Search' before making a new topic, then they often say 'oooo Necrothread' when you do search and find a topic related to what you what you want to post... There's an idiom that goes with that... Anyway, since I've brought my PB out of retirement ready for I21, the KB dilemma has reared it's head for me again. While doing trials this weekend, anti-KB comments were made. Now, I know fully well how to control my KB, so there's no need for any 'learn to use it' suggestions. And like some here, I actually kinda like KB; bodies flying suggest power! That said, the same tired issues come up. When teaming, I have to control KB by positioning, positioning takes times away from, you know, actually using your powers, so kill time is lessened. Even when Solo I have to control it, because one power's KB makes other AoE powers less useful due to scattered mobs. These points have been argued ad nauseum, and quite a few say these attributes are not detriments or limiting factors, but are actually postives that you just have to learn to use. However, some recents posts in the Beta forums (esp in the Kheldian Surprise thread) adds some more insight to the argument. It seems that Arbiter Hawk (the dev responsible for the latest Kheld changes) believes that KB must be kept in a Kheld's powers because, REMOVING KB would make a Kheld TOO POWERFUL. KB is not kept because a Kheld needs it as mitigation; it's kepts because it's needed as a LIMITING factor so that a Kheld's AoE potential won't be overpowering compared to other sets (Super Strength was the example given). What I read is, straight from the Horse's mouth, is Knockback is viewed as purposeful negative hindrance, as a tool to reel back a toon's power. How the Devs see no-KB as overpowering for a Kheld is beyond me, but that another argument. What I'm asking is that if the Devs themselve see KB as a limitation to a power, how do you pro-KBers keep suggesting it's not?

I feel a lot of the problem with KB ties to the rest of the game as opposed to just KB itself. Enemies don't have small radius stacking team buffs...they have individual drones with large force fields. Thus, times when scattering the enemies would theoretically make sense are missing. Enemies are pretty all or nothing in either having no KB protection or having a high mag protection plus 1000% resistance so they resist all KB. Why do we not have enemies with +2 mag KB so they can shrug off some KD but KB can be utilized for mitigation? So many AOE KB powers are random. Shockwave is an incredibly good power since the KB is guaranteed. That leads to another thing, that so many AOE powers are high mag KB. That seems rather unneeded considering KB is the only enhancement on Schedule D with a sizable 60% buff to the power it's equipped to.

I'm trying to remember where it was said but I remember Arcanaville making a comment about a lot of status effects in the game being rather static. I think the lack of a bit more variation hurts KB the most. KD should never be universally be considered "better" but enemy design seems almost like it was made deliberately to cause problems.

I'll also massively disagree with the earlier comment that tanking can get the team killed. Some people I've teamed with do pretty awesome stuff but I pretty much am always on the lookout for a brute or MM to do something stupid that gets the team killed.

The problem isnt Knockback powers.
Its the USE of those powers.

Can KB be detrimental? Yes.
Can Rad Debuff be detrimental? Yes
Can Confuse be detrimental? Yes
If used poorly.

Can KB be beneficial? Yes.
Can Rad Debuff be beneficial? Yes
Can Confuse be beneficial? Yes
If used correctly.


However - if you join a team and they see ur a KB toon (whatever AT) and you get kicked for it thats a kind of griefing.

MANY people try and use KB in a positive light such as knocking foes INTO damage/debuff areas. Ill often find a loner bad guy and KB them TOWARDS the damage dealers. "Hay Tank - got a pressie for you. Catch."

I dotn know how many times Ive seen a Tank have too many foes which goes over the Agro cap (not the tanks fault) and so a squishy all of a sudden has 1 or more bad guys running for them. I fire off Power Push and knock them away and the squishy lives. If more than 1 foe Energy Torrent.

I look at KB as a psuedo-control set. My Nrg/Nrg Blaster uses his KB for the team.

It is very similar to saying that WP tanks cant hold Agro because its Taunt is only 1.25sec.

Saying KB IS BAD is just like saying a Tank without Taunt is bad cause they cant grab agro at range. When used properly BOTH are fine.
If someone is KBing foes in a bad way (TOWARDS other mobs, scattering a group) all the time then TELL THE PERSON!!!! Ask them to change their tactics and explain why.
Dont just be a jerk and get the 5H175 and get upset.

I didnt mean KB foes that exceed the Tanks aggro away from the Tank.

Sceanrio (and not unrealistic based on my experience):
Tank has aggro of a mob but too many foes are in melee or a ranged toon steals aggro (hello WP/ tanks).
A squishy attacks (damage, debuff, mez, etc) and draws the excess agro from the Tank.
The Tanks agro is still saturated.
Using my KB powers I can knock those foes away from the squishy.

You would be amazed about people's attutudes when you confront them about this. Generally, I get very negative feedback. Mostly lots of excuses and denials.

Pretty much the only way I found that works is pulling out my KB "specialist" while that player is running something melee based or something that benefits by having lots of live or dead bodies around. Then I see some changes in attitudes.

If all I needed to do was tell someone that, it would be real easy. Alas, it simply isn't the case.

For every person who actually uses KB to knock things into debuff patches I see about 100 who do the opposite. I've seen more than enough stormies Gale things out of freezing rain.

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Originally Posted by cybermitheral Saying KB IS BAD is just like saying a Tank without Taunt is bad cause they cant grab agro at range. When used properly BOTH are fine. If someone is KBing foes in a bad way (TOWARDS other mobs, scattering a group) all the time then TELL THE PERSON!!!! Ask them to change their tactics and explain why. Dont just be a jerk and get the 5H175 and get upset.