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Well common wisdom is "chance" for KB means that some of them will, some of them won't.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
Well, being one of them, the complaint is more that it sends some of them flying, but not others.
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That's precisely what I'm saying. In most cases, knockback won't kill you, so most people don't care either way. Today's teams are strong enough to look after themselves. The only situations where otherwise decent teams start to struggle are particularly nasty AV fights or things like Trials, and knockback isn't so much a factor in there.|
Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
It's generalized I know but unless you are fighting more mobs than your aggro manager can handle anyway the only thing that knockback should be causing you to lose is time. That is only because if the KB user is unskilled or overzealous the scatter can prevent you from maximizing your AOEs.
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What knockback is, for the most part, is annoying. When I use Hand Clap, I use it because I want some mitigation off of it, but I'd rather not give mitigation back to my enemies for using it. I want mitigation while still being able to attack, and attack efficiently, like how knockdown allows me. But because Handclap is PBAoE scatter, I hamper myself as much as I hamper my enemies a lot of the time.
In short, knockback isn't a big enough problem to make turning it off universal law, but it's just big enough of a problem that letting me opt out of at least the worst offenders would be a very welcome change.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The hell I can't!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
but you can't ignore that the people who argue FOR it ignore its negative aspects equally as often.
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| You can't chastise one group for claiming it's the worst thing ever while letting the other group off the hook for claiming it's the best thing ever, now can you? |
So why are we doing it, then?
The negative aspects of the power are a known factor. If you don't like having to deal with it personally, don't take sets that include knockback and knockdown as part of their mitigation.
And learn how to work with those who DO choose to utilize powers with a KB component.
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| The very fact that one has to learn to use knockback properly before knockback stops being a liability is reason enough to "hate" it. |
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| No other power effect in the game has this kind of potential for disaster to it, not since Fear type powers were changed from "enemies run away" Afraid to "enemies cower in fear" Terrorize. |
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I agree with you(too a point) but how do you designate worst offenders? As soon as you set a list of changable powers people will ask "WHY NOT MY FAVORITE POWER?". Just look at the recent AOE buff changes for proof. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In short, knockback isn't a big enough problem to make turning it off universal law, but it's just big enough of a problem that letting me opt out of at least the worst offenders would be a very welcome change.
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I think knock back is too much of an integral part of the powers it is attached to to do this half way and taking knockback out completely is just silly talk and should automatically have you put in a rubber room.
As an aside: Handclap should be sonic stun rather than knockback or knockdown 
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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The simple solution: Don't team up with those people.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
If the option to turn knockback off exists, it will become a "requirement" for teaming to turn it off.
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To paraphrase the great Hunter S. Thompson, I hate to advocate misanthropy, isolationism, and refusing to team up with strangers in the first place, but they've always worked for me.
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I can get force bolt around 50 mag kb, if these enhancements could stack to reach that level I would be all for this.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
1. Set all powers that do knockback to do knockback of mag 0.
All these powers can still be slotted for knockback. But without enhancement, they won't. This does NOT affect knockdown (like footstomp, ice slick or earthquake) or repel (Force Bubble, Telekenesis, Hurricane.) 2. Make all KB IOs levelless, doing an absolute value of .4 mag KB. |
Start at 0kb, enhance up to 50kb. Hell yeah.
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And how would you know who those people are BEFORE you get on a team with them? |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
The simple solution: Don't team up with those people.
To paraphrase the great Hunter S. Thompson, I hate to advocate misanthropy, isolationism, and refusing to team up with strangers in the first place, but they've always worked for me. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Agreed. if they ever offered the option I'd take MOAR KB on the powers that could slot it. Not less. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
I can get force bolt around 50 mag kb, if these enhancements could stack to reach that level I would be all for this.
Start at 0kb, enhance up to 50kb. Hell yeah. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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You are wrong.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Any badly understood, mis-utilized power is a liability until you learn to use it. Try again Sam.
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Per chance I need to explain how you are wrong - in case it weren't obvious from the post you quoted - no other power effect in the game makes using a power WORSE than not using it. Avoid/afraid are accepted exceptions, granted, but there's practically nothing beyond them. You can maybe argue that the knockback protection inherent in many control powers can hamper the functionality of Ice Patch and Earthquake, but that's an isolated case.
The worst something like a hold, a slow or a sleep can do is just not help. It's not going to HURT you directly. Knockback can. In fact, almost every power with knockback to it can, if not used properly, serve as more of a detriment to a team than a help. Most powers don't pose a danger to their wielder or to the team said wielder is on. Knockback powers can, especially AoE knockback powers.
Try again, please, and this time try to avoid arguments like "Yes I can ignore everything you've said! Let me prove it to you!" Your snark is unwelcome, unnecessary and unconstructive. Even despite being one of the biggest proponents of knockback and starter of the whole thread, Memphis Bill has managed to conduct himself intelligently, rationally and productively. I'd suggest following his example, because I'm not interested in participating in your malicious arguments.
You want to put me down, fine. Go right ahead. I just hope the self-satisfaction you derive from this is enough for you, because that's the extent of your achievement here.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm pretty sure I know who "strangers" are. They're people I don't already know. I'm not quite so old that I can't keep those two groups straight. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And how would you know who those people are BEFORE you get on a team with them?
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I like Knockback on my Blaster, it saves me a surprisingly large amount of incoming damage. Especially when various shots all inflict it and I wind up kicking the villain across the map with bullets.
I hate Knockback on my Tanker. Because every time I get the pack of enemies focused on me, in a situation where I can maintain threat on all of them, some joker drops an AOE knockback and blasts them ALL away from me while I'm practically rooted via Caltrops/Glue Grenade spam, unable to pick up the swarm of enemies who are no longer paying attention to me.
Use Knockback responsibly, kids.
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That's the thing about Knockback, its fun when YOU are doing the KB but not so much when you have to deal with it. |
Originally Posted by Pesky
I like Knockback on my Blaster, it saves me a surprisingly large amount of incoming damage. Especially when various shots all inflict it and I wind up kicking the villain across the map with bullets.
I hate Knockback on my Tanker. Because every time I get the pack of enemies focused on me, in a situation where I can maintain threat on all of them, some joker drops an AOE knockback and blasts them ALL away from me while I'm practically rooted via Caltrops/Glue Grenade spam, unable to pick up the swarm of enemies who are no longer paying attention to me. Use Knockback responsibly, kids. |
There was someone who I teamed with who loved doing knockback with his characters and almost seemed to love being a jerk about it. So one night he was playing a scrapper and found his 2 teammates were energy blasters and we made it so that his scrapper got about 1 single target off per fight and had to run around chasing stuff. We then responded with his usual excuses that oh, KB is soooo cool! Funny, how people change their views when they are on the receiving end. He's better about it now.
Good to see M_B on this. Maybe they will fix all of the excessive KB in the Peacebringer so I can unretire mine.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
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Can there ever be any such thing as excessive knockback in a character as comically fragile as a Peacebringer? I'm skeptical.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Good to see M_B on this. Maybe they will fix all of the excessive KB in the Peacebringer so I can unretire mine.
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One of these powers is not like the others. A centered on self PBAOE simply has to cause scatter. A well positioned cone (and shockwave is not a melee cone it has 30 feet range) simply doesn't. In fact can be used to group in the way that all LB powers when there is a convenient wall or corner.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
N3) Hand Clap, Thunder Clap, Shockwave, and powers like them .
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I have to agree with Cat here (nice to see you around, by the way |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
One of these powers is not like the others. A centered on self PBAOE simply has to cause scatter. A well positioned cone (and shockwave is not a melee cone it has 30 feet range) simply doesn't. In fact can be used to group in the way that all LB powers when there is a convenient wall or corner.
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) - much as I have a problem with Shockwave and the knockback it causes, at least it's controllable and above all CONSISTENT. I fire Shockwave at a spawn, that spawn goes flying in the direction I point. They may not stay together neatly, but they ALL go flying, so they stay together at least somewhat. Shockwave isn't a power I'd look at as being anything like the worst offender. At most it's inconvenient.Hand Clap and Thunder Clap are the powers that draw most of my ire. These things are broken by their own design.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Nope. Sorry. I'm not.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You are wrong.
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| Per chance I need to explain how you are wrong - in case it weren't obvious from the post you quoted - no other power effect in the game makes using a power WORSE than not using it. Avoid/afraid are accepted exceptions, granted, but there's practically nothing beyond them. You can maybe argue that the knockback protection inherent in many control powers can hamper the functionality of Ice Patch and Earthquake, but that's an isolated case. |
Sorry. No. That boat don't float.
I stand behind what I said. ANY badly understood, mis-utilized power can be a liability.
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I have more words on this but since I'm typing this on my phone, i'll cut it short...
We all need to just accept some powers/tactics as liabilities in the hands of the incapable. Some players will just be *better* than you at utilizing certain effects/powers than you currently are or willing to be.
I hear up and down how some don't like Power Siphon because it's too cumbersome while others love it and make great use of it.
I, personally suck at managing pet ATs and in the hands of an incapable player you can get teammates *killed*. Doesn't stop some of the more keybind crafty to make the entire PvE game a cakewalk on a MM.
Toggle debuffs are great if you know how to use them. If you don't know what targets to choose though, you'll have your anchors constantly killed therefore you'll need to recast them. And if you don't pay special attention to that anchor, more likely than not you'll aggro something(s!) you didn't mean to and be killed.
KB is no different. Some will be capable of exploiting its advantages while others may need practice. This is no more reason to offer changes to the effect than suggesting toggle debuffs be replaced with clicks or Power siphon with BU or MM pets with Voltaic sentinal clones.
So you can either suck it up and learn to use the effect properly or avoid usibg it or encountering it in moderation. In the real world, mature adults do this all the time. Since you're interacting with other human beings, theres no reason not to extend the same sense into the game.
Meh. IMO, this isn't really a suggestion or a solution, nor a (genuine) surrender. The OP is just trying to shame his opponents by casting them as unreasonable and unwilling to compromise.
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Although, in fairness, they are. I mean, just look at the thread. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Meh. IMO, this isn't really a suggestion or a solution, nor a (genuine) surrender. The OP is just trying to shame his opponents by casting them as unreasonable and unwilling to compromise.
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Unless energy blasters were given the ability to summon walls to knock **** into in the past few issues, there's not a single possible way that knockback will be helpful to a team more than 50% of the time, even in the hands of a gaming god.
Here's the benefits from what I can see:
You can knock stuff down over and over until you finally back them into a wall.
Here's the drawbacks:
Other peoples' AOEs are completely ruined by your subpar damage
All those delicious tar patches and freezing rains and radiation infections are now useless
The tank gets pissed off and turns off his taunt aura
Scrapper gets pissed and aggros stuff onto you
Those last two were jokes, only they're still kind of true.
Unless you're running a team of blasters, knockback will never be superior to knockdown.
Wait, what am I saying. It'll still be inferior because blasters need to use their AoEs to kill stuff before it kills them.
Basically it's good for soloing.
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And 37.1934579345% of all statistics published on internet boards are pulled from...well...we know don't we...|
Originally Posted by YippeeGo
Unless energy blasters were given the ability to summon walls to knock **** into in the past few issues, there's not a single possible way that knockback will be helpful to a team more than 50% of the time, even in the hands of a gaming god.
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Here's the benefits from what I can see: You can knock stuff down over and over until you finally back them into a wall. |
It's about POSITIONING opponents while preventing them from attacking you. Yes, a wall or a corner occasionally comes into the picture. But that's not the whole of it.
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Here's the drawbacks: Other peoples' AOEs are completely ruined by your subpar damage All those delicious tar patches and freezing rains and radiation infections are now useless The tank gets pissed off and turns off his taunt aura Scrapper gets pissed and aggros stuff onto you Those last two were jokes, only they're still kind of true. |
Actually all four of them were jokes.
Other people's AoEs are NOT ruined if the powers are used intelligently. And if I happen to bounce one or two opponents out of an AoE and still kill them so the hell what?
Again, they're not useless. Please save the hyperbole. You're acting like each and every attach that does knockback bounces entire enemy groups out of AoE effects 100% of the time. You know this is bull. Please posit REAL arguments.
Your third joke point is only true of idiots who don't understand the role KB plays in the game.
The fourth joke point is much the same as the third.
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| Unless you're running a team of blasters, knockback will never be superior to knockdown. |
Tell me know knockdown is superior in getting them all together for maximum AOE goodness.
Yes. I'm patient. I can wait for an answer.
I refuse to hold my breath that long though.
And hopefully I'll still be cognizant in 50-70 years so I can listen to you stumble through an explanation.
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Wait, what am I saying. It'll still be inferior because blasters need to use their AoEs to kill stuff before it kills them. Basically it's good for soloing. |
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Actually, there are times when KB is better than KD in a team setting.|
Originally Posted by YippeeGo
Unless you're running a team of blasters, knockback will never be superior to knockdown. Wait, what am I saying. It'll still be inferior because blasters need to use their AoEs to kill stuff before it kills them. Basically it's good for soloing. |
To wit;
My Energy Blaster once acted as a pseudo controller, keeping a duo of bosses out of the fight until we could clear enough of the mobs to take them out. The fight took place on a 3rd floor near a railing. I was able to use Power Push and Thrust to keep hurling them over the rail and down 2 floors. Take out a few more Lt's or Minions before they got back to us then repeat until we were ready to engage them.
If that had been KD instead, it wouldn't have worked quite as well.
Just sayin, there are times when KB is preferred, even when teamed. Providing you use it wisely that is. Tactics go a long way towards making bad powers good.
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And who do you think you are, a mere gaming mortal, posting such inerior tactics among us gaming meta-gods, the immortals that surpass even the well's omni-statistical-bullcrappery?|
Originally Posted by YippeeGo
Unless you're running a team of blasters, knockback will never be superior to knockdown.
Wait, what am I saying. It'll still be inferior because blasters need to use their AoEs to kill stuff before it kills them. |
Be off! Your puny mortal mind woud never grasp the complexities of knockback such as the "knock it back where it started" method or god-like skills such as "Follow".
If this option is given, we then have a bunch of people crying AGAIN about how low-damage those power are compared to others.
This is a LRN2PLAY moment for such people.
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