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Your answer - after making up extra critters, etc. that were not in the situation - is to dance around and let them get killed because... what, the power use isn't "maximal," whatever you care to mean by that since in this situation it's an empty term?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
N
No, it's like being asked how to handle a tactical scenario after being told. Somebody is going to shoot you and your friends. You have a bazooka and nothing else. What do you do? It's a biased question intended to lead to only one result. I didn't take the bait. Sorry. |
And you still haven't answered how using Shield Charge - in MY specific named situation, with ONE boss that can kill your team or be killed with either the one AOE or a few smaller attacks, not your "And all these other guys I just threw in for the hell of it, and this and this and this" - is any more "maximal" (a term you've yet to define to anyone given it fits no known definition in this instance) than using the other AOEs.
If we had splash damage and friendly fire so it would damage your allies, your answer would make sense even with MY very simple, very specific constraints.
As for:
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| Nonsense |
Let's see, my situation:
- Teammates unable to help themselves, low health.
- One boss that can kill them, but is low on health.
- Your powers at this point are a high damage AOE or a bunch of smaller powers, either of which will kill the boss.
in response to your "maximal" comment. Your reaction?
"What's the team makeup?" Irrelevant. The team cant' do anything for the next several seconds, but are in danger.
"What enemy group?" Irrelevant. We're looking at one boss that can do AOE enough to kill the group, and will if nothing changes.
"What are my powersets/primary/secondary?" Also irrelevant. You have an AOE and a few smaller attacks, everything else is debuffed and won't be up before the boss kills the group.
You also decided "Well, I add more critters" for some reason.
You also stayed focused, for some reason, on knockback, even after I modified that to "Fine, a high damage AOE to get you out of thinking of knockback."
And like I said, your "Solution" without your added nonsense? Dancing away? Great, the boss still has a pretty good chance of killing the rest of the team. Your choice is, essentially, "Do nothing."
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By hitting bad guys with it.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
How does one use PBAoE 'effectively'?
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Not all of us play for the most 'effective' use of every power, every time.
Some of us play to laugh and have fun, to kill bad guys after a stressful day at work.
Sending the bad guys flying makes me laugh, it makes my friends laugh and it is pretty hard to argue that it is not in line with comic heroes.
So, it is very effective, IMO, every time I use it.
KB does not need to be changed any more than Defenders or Stalkers are obsolete.
Like so many things, if you don't like KB, don't use it and leave those teams that do use it if you just cannot stand it.
This merry-go-round about KB has never stopped and I doubt it ever will, because it is a matter of taste.
KB is FUN! It is sad, to me, that so many players seem to have forgotten how to have fun and play the game as if only the numbers matter.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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You are, I am assuming, intelligent. I'm starting to question that at this point, but I'm going to stay with that assumption. You are well aware that tangents can come up in threads - such as discussing your "maximal" use, which I laid out specifically as the reason for bringing this up:|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Kinda hard not to when the name of the thread is:
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Originally Posted by me
Using the nuke is not maximal utilization of the power - you're taking out a single target at far less than full health.
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Shield Charge's DPA is high enough that using it in an attack chain against hard solo targets is often a good use of the power, especially when nothing else is around. An AoE, when nothing else is around and when you have no other powers ready is the proper power to use.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And you still haven't answered how using Shield Charge - in MY specific named situation, with ONE boss that can kill your team or be killed with either the one AOE or a few smaller attacks, not your "And all these other guys I just threw in for the hell of it, and this and this and this" - is any more "maximal" (a term you've yet to define to anyone given it fits no known definition in this instance) than using the other AOEs.
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By the way, 'maximal' is Hyperstrike's term. To the extent I understand what HE meant, maximal means getting the most out of the power as possible.
But at this point you're just mad I Captain Kirk'ed your Kobayashi Maru scenario.
EDIT: Go to go home now. So you get last word Bill!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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It's not "my" scenario when you start adding things and dancing around. The standard EvilGeko "let me add crap and obscure the question" is what's irritating. Also,|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
But at this point you're just mad I Captain Kirk'ed your Kobayashi Maru scenario.
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An AoE, when nothing else is around and when you have no other powers ready is the proper power to use. |
(Side note for anyone else - I do actually like Geko. Doesn't mean he doesn't irritate the hell out of me when he pulls this sort of thing, though.)
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Are you saying there are situations where you should use an AoE power even though it will not hit its target cap?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Shield Charge's DPA is high enough that using it in an attack chain against hard solo targets is often a good use of the power, especially when nothing else is around. An AoE, when nothing else is around and when you have no other powers ready is the proper power to use.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I asked you to clarify your hypothetical. You refused. You said I was dodging the question. I warned you that I would need to make certain assumptions to answer the question. I get that you disagree that those assumptions needed to be made.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It's not "my" scenario when you start adding things and dancing around. The standard EvilGeko "let me add crap and obscure the question" is what's irritating. Also,
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I don't try to be irritating.... *innocent puppy dog look*
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| ... and yet you chose to dance around and hope you had the boss's attention. You have yet to actually explain why you thought that was a good idea, without adding BS. (I don't personally believe you can do much of anything without adding that sort of BS, quite honestly. See prior mention of asking about dinner.) |
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| (Side note for anyone else - I do actually like Geko. Doesn't mean he doesn't irritate the hell out of me when he pulls this sort of thing, though.) |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Well, unless they're actually dead, it's quite possible that (oh) one was a tank that got a taunt off just before they lost the last bit of END (say, a power crash of some sort) and detoggled, getting stunned. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You said everyone else was out of commission because of mez or whatever. Who else would the boss be mad at? |
Or the AI's just being wonky.
Never assume it's you just because you're *not* mezzed.
OK, fine. If you were locked in a room with this guy for a few hours, would you NOT want to use your largest, most damaging attack, even if you didn't need that much damage? >.>
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I suggested this in a thread already and the usual people that are completely against and unwilling to compromise about anything that improves knockback control will be in here shortly. And here's the thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=264703
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I was thinking with the addition of the little bird in Pocket D who can turn +movement off in Speed Boost, he should also be able to turn Knockback off in personal powers.
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Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Bill, I'm ashamed of you.
KB is fine as is, except for a bunch of whiners who won't learn to use it, and of course the melee players who still whine for healers on their team.
Forget them, wash your hand of the losers, and move on.
/thread
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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What if you have learned to use it, and are a melee player who vastly prefers some form of bubbler, but still think KB has issues?
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Originally Posted by Atilla_The_Pun
KB is fine as is, except for a bunch of whiners who won't learn to use it, and of course the melee players who still whine for healers on their team.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I disagree. Scattering mobs all over when they could be killed quicker before they become a threat is not ok. Not everyone can control knockback and some sets do alot of it. Some people using said knockback powers don't even want knockback but enjoy the sets damage type and animations. Some want the knockback solo but not on a team. |
Originally Posted by Atilla_The_Pun
Bill, I'm ashamed of you.
KB is fine as is, except for a bunch of whiners who won't learn to use it, and of course the melee players who still whine for healers on their team. Forget them, wash your hand of the losers, and move on. /thread |
Nothing wrong with an optional feature to turn off knockback. You can still use it when you want to. That's why its optional.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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It means it's not Predacon. Seems pretty straightforward to me. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Your answer - after making up extra critters, etc. that were not in the situation - is to dance around and let them get killed because... what, the power use isn't "maximal," whatever you care to mean by that since in this situation it's an empty term?
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Is it mehanically impossible/improbable to add a KD only option to power customization for those powers that have KB?
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
no, just no, I'm already having to go through a lot of effort just to get my basic attacks on my SS brute to a KB of 2, she's already going to have less KB than a blaster with power thrust will without slotting save maybe on KO-Blow and Hurl....I want more knockback, not less than already exists...
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
In my opinion, I'd have to say 'it depends'. For example, if a team of mostly-ranged are with a tank, and an enemy ambush comes at them, KB is extremely useful. The tank hand-claps and the ranged go crazy attacking them at bay. If say, the team is mellee and need to be up-close, then perhaps foot stomp (KD) is better.
IT LIIIIIIIIVES!
p.s. don't do this
I have an idea. You want a KB off power or rather a turn all KB into KD power?
You have 2 methods of doing this.
1. Use the Null bird.
2. Give us a temp power.
MECHANICS
Instead of being a set value, IE -100 kb mag, use a %. So -80% kb for example. Even something with a 4 mag would be reduced to kd levels as it would end up being 0.8 mag. Now obviously this would not be a 100% fix because there are indeed some powers that rely on kb to be effective, say power push and force bolt.
But couldn't very select powers be given some sort of copout to this effect? Giving a workaround to a very small select group of power shouldn't bee too hard. You could prolly still give them the option of kd as well if people REALLY wanted to toggle them individually.
People always say 'Search' before making a new topic, then they often say 'oooo Necrothread' when you do search and find a topic related to what you what you want to post...
There's an idiom that goes with that...
Anyway, since I've brought my PB out of retirement ready for I21, the KB dilemma has reared it's head for me again. While doing trials this weekend, anti-KB comments were made. Now, I know fully well how to control my KB, so there's no need for any 'learn to use it' suggestions. And like some here, I actually kinda like KB; bodies flying suggest power!
That said, the same tired issues come up. When teaming, I have to control KB by positioning, positioning takes times away from, you know, actually using your powers, so kill time is lessened. Even when Solo I have to control it, because one power's KB makes other AoE powers less useful due to scattered mobs.
These points have been argued ad nauseum, and quite a few say these attributes are not detriments or limiting factors, but are actually postives that you just have to learn to use. However, some recents posts in the Beta forums (esp in the Kheldian Surprise thread) adds some more insight to the argument.
It seems that Arbiter Hawk (the dev responsible for the latest Kheld changes) believes that KB must be kept in a Kheld's powers because, REMOVING KB would make a Kheld TOO POWERFUL. KB is not kept because a Kheld needs it as mitigation; it's kepts because it's needed as a LIMITING factor so that a Kheld's AoE potential won't be overpowering compared to other sets (Super Strength was the example given).
What I read is, straight from the Horse's mouth, is Knockback is viewed as purposeful negative hindrance, as a tool to reel back a toon's power.
How the Devs see no-KB as overpowering for a Kheld is beyond me, but that another argument. What I'm asking is that if the Devs themselve see KB as a limitation to a power, how do you pro-KBers keep suggesting it's not?
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Well, not arguing for Kb here, but the Devs and the players don't always see eye-to-eye on everything. There are many times that the Players do things with powers that were never intended, and that can make powers more or less useful. In this case, some players can make it so that KB is a positive effect.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
What I read is, straight from the Horse's mouth, is Knockback is viewed as purposeful negative hindrance, as a tool to reel back a toon's power.
How the Devs see no-KB as overpowering for a Kheld is beyond me, but that another argument. What I'm asking is that if the Devs themselve see KB as a limitation to a power, how do you pro-KBers keep suggesting it's not? |
Also, even if your quote is completely in context (and I'm not saying it's not), that doesn't mean that KB is ALWAYS used by the Devs as a purposeful negative hindrance. For instance, a single AoE knockback in a set probably isn't used this way. However, if a set has multiple AoE knockback effects, it might be used there as one, to prevent the player from being able to use all of these AoEs to full effect.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Because even if that's what they think, in practice they are proven wrong. Empirical results matter more than words, even words from the people in charge, and when I don't have a sledgehammer sticking out of the side of my head because my Power Burst knocked that Skull pancake over teakettle across the street, that's a positive result. This is not an abstract or philosophical conclusion.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
What I'm asking is that if the Devs themselve see KB as a limitation to a power, how do you pro-KBers keep suggesting it's not?
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I'd like to read a pro person argue how MM knock is anything but a liability. The whole argument of how you simply LRN2PLAY and use it efficiently doesn't work that way.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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For the subject I brought up (that KB limits powers), I'd say the Devs are quite correct. There's no doubt that my PB (and her team) would be kill things faster if I had Knockdown instead of Knockback in Solar Flare, Luminous Detonation, and Photon Seekers. When I scatter mobs, that slows killing speed. When I do the position dance so I don't scatter mobs, that slows killing speed. I see the empirical evidence of this every time I enter a mission.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Because even if that's what they think, in practice they are proven wrong. Empirical results matter more than words, even words from the people in charge, and when I don't have a sledgehammer sticking out of the side of my head because my Power Burst knocked that Skull pancake over teakettle across the street, that's a positive result. This is not an abstract or philosophical conclusion.
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I guess if I really needed KBs mitigation for survival then I'd feel differently but I'm tough enough to handle 8-man spawns alone. And even if I weren't, I certainly don't need it's mitigation when I'm teaming with Tanks and Trollers. Sorry if it sounds like I'm knocking builds that aren't built as tough, but PBs can be made very tough with their Resistances and Heals even without heavy IOing. Add in some IOs, esp. +def, and their toughness ratchets on up there.
As tough as PBs can be, it seems they can do fine without the mitigation KB gives, because, you know, killing things faster is mitigation in its own right
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...wut|
Originally Posted by Socorro
It seems that Arbiter Hawk (the dev responsible for the latest Kheld changes) believes that KB must be kept in a Kheld's powers because, REMOVING KB would make a Kheld TOO POWERFUL. KB is not kept because a Kheld needs it as mitigation; it's kepts because it's needed as a LIMITING factor so that a Kheld's AoE potential won't be overpowering compared to other sets (Super Strength was the example given). What I read is, straight from the Horse's mouth, is Knockback is viewed as purposeful negative hindrance, as a tool to reel back a toon's power. How the Devs see no-KB as overpowering for a Kheld is beyond me, but that another argument. What I'm asking is that if the Devs themselve see KB as a limitation to a power, how do you pro-KBers keep suggesting it's not? |
No, seriously; What the hell?
I'd like to have serious words about that. A bat with nails through it might be necessary too...
I take it he's never PLAYED one, then? Ever? I mean, bloody hell...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.