How about a much, much simpler solution?
At Lv2, grant an inherent toggle power that gives you -100 to knockback. No cost, no recharge, no animation time and so on. Don't want knockback? Turn it on. Want it? Turn it off.
For a more complicated version, how about a mechanic that has an XX% chance to do knockback on all affected mobs?
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Except that would also affect any power doing knockdown - they're the same thing, just a difference of magnitude. Plus, I'm not sure how it'd affect pets (such as Phantasm.) |
Originally Posted by Quinch
How about a much, much simpler solution?
At Lv2, grant an inherent toggle power that gives you -100 to knockback. No cost, no recharge, no animation time and so on. Don't want knockback? Turn it on. Want it? Turn it off. |
Thus, tackling it on the powers that do knockback themselves, leaving the ones that do just KD (or knockup) alone.
Edit: And the other mechanic mentioned (chance for KB) already gets complaints in the various KB threads because "not only does it do knockback, but it's not consistent - you never know WHEN you'll send a mob flying."
I was thinking with the addition of the little bird in Pocket D who can turn +movement off in Speed Boost, he should also be able to turn Knockback off in personal powers.
KNOCKBACK IS DEH DEVIL!
Just kidding!
There are three kinds of players in CoH with regard to knockback.
- Those who haven't learned to use it effectively but are willing to try.
- Those who have learned to use it effectively.
- Those who are too stupid to use it effectively and refuse to learn (preferring, instead, to *female dog* about it).
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I want to say that's not mechanically possible, but I may be remembering it wrong. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I was thinking with the addition of the little bird in Pocket D who can turn +movement off in Speed Boost, he should also be able to turn Knockback off in personal powers.
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Besides, it's a matter of consistency. Why just move the target of anti-KB ire from the Energy blaster to the Dark defender who suddenly uses Torrent? Set it to 0, with the cost for adding it on the part of the user - who can, if they want, implement a solo/kb build and an overall/no-kb build (which would be the default state.) That way someone doesn't suddenly start getting griped at when they pick up a new power on a set they're trying out only to find it does KB.
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No.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I was thinking with the addition of the little bird in Pocket D who can turn +movement off in Speed Boost, he should also be able to turn Knockback off in personal powers.
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NO.
A HUNDRED BAZILLION GOOGOLPLEX TIMES NO!
KB is baked in as part of most of these powers' balance. Remove the mitigation of KB and what you have left are powers with no mitigation and substandard damage. And you STILL have various and sundry mental defectives weeping and raging over people who refuse to cripple themselves by turning KB off.
The proper answer isn't "get rid of if". The proper answer is "adapt, overcome".
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No.
NO. A HUNDRED BAZILLION GOOGOLPLEX TIMES NO! KB is baked in as part of most of these powers' balance. Remove the mitigation of KB and what you have left are powers with no mitigation and substandard damage. And you STILL have various and sundry mental defectives weeping and raging over people who refuse to cripple themselves by turning KB off. The proper answer isn't "get rid of if". The proper answer is "adapt, overcome". |
It's for personal powers. You have the option to turn it off. If you want it for mitigation, then no problem! Go to Pocket D and turn it back on. If you're already fond of it in the first place, then you had no reason to go to Pocket D and turn it off.
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Well, being one of them, the complaint is more that it sends some of them flying, but not others.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Edit: And the other mechanic mentioned (chance for KB) already gets complaints in the various KB threads because "not only does it do knockback, but it's not consistent - you never know WHEN you'll send a mob flying."
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You forgot #4:|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
[*]Those who are too stupid to use it effectively and refuse to learn (preferring, instead, to *female dog* about it).[/LIST]
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Those who think any target being moved one iota away from them is cause for boiling in oil, followed by flaying, being rolled in glass, dropped in lemon juice and coated in salt, instead of learning to work with it.
The last two are the ones I've given up because of. After all - and yes, I have been told this - "knockback is NEVER good in ANY situation." Like I said. After years of this, I'm tired and done with it.
Knockback has saved my life in this game more times than any other form of mitigation...
If you took the KB out of my Energy/Energy blaster he'd shrivel up and die.
I feel for ya though. There is no reasoning with the 'Haters' as you said, KB's teh devil.
Sadly, the stigma is such that, even if you use KB perfectly you are likely to still get flamed for it. Combined with the fact that most players experience with KB comes from it being used poorly by novices instead of when it helps and there ya go.
Back in the day, trying to level up my main became a real chore around level 38. For some reason at that point in the games life KB was really being slammed. It wasn't uncommon at the time for me to get insta kicked from a PUG the second I zoned into the mission and they saw I was energy. Wouldn't even give me a chance to use it properly. This eventually led to my main evolving into a soloer but I digress.
Back then I thought up a few options. We have a +KB enhancement, how bought a -KB enhancer? For instance, I'd love to be able to slot -KB into Torrent and Explosive Blast since they aren't that reliable.
Other ideas included creating an enhancement that turns KB into KD and vice versa.
Though in the interim I learned to love KB and these days I tend to lean towards powersets that have at least one KB power in them. I say it's fine as is. Let the haters hate and everyone else can just laugh at em!
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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Or an option that turns Knockdown into Knockup?
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Back then I thought up a few options. We have a +KB enhancement, how bought a -KB enhancer? For instance, I'd love to be able to slot -KB into Torrent and Explosive Blast since they aren't that reliable.
Other ideas included creating an enhancement that turns KB into KD and vice versa. |
This solution means people have to expend more slots to get the power back to the original version.
2 mutually exclusive power choices (energy Torrent +KB or energy torrent - KB) would work better. But be more limited if a player changes their mind.
or an additional slot to each of the affected powers that only accept the KB enhancement.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Well...
I have sent a guy flying so hard he did kinda impregnate the wall.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
How about those people who do know how to use knockback "properly," but still find it disruptive as compared to knockdown? It's easy enough to criticise people who dislike knockback as stupid, ureasonable haters, but you can't ignore that the people who argue FOR it ignore its negative aspects equally as often. You can't chastise one group for claiming it's the worst thing ever while letting the other group off the hook for claiming it's the best thing ever, now can you? So why are we doing it, then?
Why, furthermore, is it that fans of knockback treat it as such a huge crime that some want the option of trading their knockback for knockDOWN? The way this subject is treated, and the way the "If you don't want knockback, you get NOTHING!!!" argument gets made, it's as if knockback is seen as inferior to knockdown and that knockback powers being transformed to knockdown would somehow overpower them.
The very fact that one has to learn to use knockback properly before knockback stops being a liability is reason enough to "hate" it. No other power effect in the game has this kind of potential for disaster to it, not since Fear type powers were changed from "enemies run away" Afraid to "enemies cower in fear" Terrorize. I guess Avoid patches can be said to do this, such as Rain of Fire and Freezing Rain, but both of these powers slow, and both of these powers are intentionally designed to be used with lesser regularity than Explosive Blast.
To me, the best solution - and that's best for everybody - is to just code the power in most knockback-heavy sets to use the Swap Ammo mechanic, where they have one full-strength knockback effect and one mag 0.67 knockback effect. The original one would be active at creation, but which one works would be choosable through Null the Gull.
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Just as an idle point of fact, I should remind people that all of Battle Axe used to do knockback, and yet all of Battle axe, save for Swoop, was change to do knockdown. Not as an option, not if you wanted it to. The set was simply changed to do all knockdown. The reason? Tankers were getting tired of chasing after their own targets like a kid chasing a ball but accidentally kicking it away ever time he gets close.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And, so I'm told, "That's perfectly OK, so long as you don't do knockback."|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
This solution means people have to expend more slots to get the power back to the original version.
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Yeah. I do wish I were making those up.
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Originally Posted by samuel_tow
You can't chastise one group for claiming it's the worst thing ever while letting the other group off the hook for claiming it's the best thing ever, now can you?
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| it's as if knockback is seen as inferior to knockdown |
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| The very fact that one has to learn to use knockback properly before knockback stops being a liability is reason enough to "hate" it |
You have to learn to tank properly.
You have to learn to position yourself to take advantage of cones properly.
You have to learn how to use Fulcrum Shift properly.
You have to learn the best way to use Fortitude/Forge/etc. properly.
You have to learn how to use every power in the game, to one extent or another, properly.
Look at the various powers people call "Skippable," and you'll find quite a number of them are... knockback.
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| To me, the best solution - and that's best for everybody - is to just code the power in most knockback-heavy sets to use the Swap Ammo mechanic, |
Besides, I don't want more time put into this than changing numbers in a spreadsheet. No new powers. No new UI items. No "rebalancing," not that I tend to believe there's much of that done these days anyway.
I'll leave the rest of the back and forth to others. I'm sure we'll have some folks coming in saying "Perfect, do it" after all.
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I mean, when I suggest that knockback be swapped for knockdown in, say, Energy Blast, people seem to want to tell me that this would be overpowered. They tell me how awesome knockdown is, but still seem to regard knockdown as "better" and therefore too strong. Just as you suggest, the choice has to be between knockback or nothing. If I'm allowed to pick knockdown, well, that's just way too strong.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Ask Evilgeko, among others. That's EXACTLY their position. Like I said - that knockback is "Never" good or useful. So, fine. They can have their position - knockback is completely eliminated as the default for player powers. It can be slotted for - but otherwise, it does nothing but whatever else the power does (damage, disorient, -tohit, -defense, etc.)
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At least that's the vibe I get out of the argument.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You have to learn to use nukes properly.
You have to learn to tank properly. You have to learn to position yourself to take advantage of cones properly. You have to learn how to use Fulcrum Shift properly. You have to learn the best way to use Fortitude/Forge/etc. properly. You have to learn how to use every power in the game, to one extent or another, properly. |
Nukes are... A subject all to themselves. All I'll say about them is my nukes have killed me far more often than they've helped me and leave it at that. There's a separate thread for that around Suggestions.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
At which point you're ******* at constantly to "Turn that damn thing off," given the reaction to knockback over the past several years. Not something I want to deal with, any more than my defenders being told "Just heal, dont' do anything else." Besides, most of the powers have some other effect. Might as well just pull the "problematic" portion back to being something solely slottable.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just let the bird turn it off if you want him to, you guys. 
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Which is why I'm avoiding that entire bit. As mentioned, most have a secondary effect anyway. There are a couple of problematic powers, but... *shrug* |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I mean, when I suggest that knockback be swapped for knockdown in, say, Energy Blast, people seem to want to tell me that this would be overpowered. They tell me how awesome knockdown is, but still seem to regard knockdown as "better" and therefore too strong. Just as you suggest, the choice has to be between knockback or nothing. If I'm allowed to pick knockdown, well, that's just way too strong.
At least that's the vibe I get out of the argument. |
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| I wouldn't be surprised if people complain, that much I admit. But I ask you this: Do you envision more people complaining about you turning off your Knockback than the number of people right now complain about not using your AoEs, not teaming with them, not using knockback properly even when you are and so forth? Do you envision adding such an option causing MORE complaints? |
1. No knockback - no complaints (after those that like KB shelve their characters or make a second build for soloing. That includes me.)
2. Option - Complaints from teammates to "turn that down/off," making teammates and the person with KB miserable.
3. Current - Current level of complaints.
But, as I mentioned - I'm leaving further arguments to others. My heart's not in this, I'm just giving up arguing about the subject all together and throwing this out there as the "new knockback baseline."
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That doesn't work, and not for any mechanical reason.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Just let the bird turn it off if you want him to, you guys.
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If the option to turn knockback off exists, it will become a "requirement" for teaming to turn it off.
Where to now?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
That doesn't work, and not for any mechanical reason.
If the option to turn knockback off exists, it will become a "requirement" for teaming to turn it off. |
That's a pretty subjective (and negative) view to have on the subject, Dechs... :/
If you're on a team full of ranged characters, for example, the extra mitigation from KB would be desirable.
If you're playing with people you team with often, or people who understand that KB can be used effectively, it won't be an issue.
edit: Not to mention, in a lot of situations it would be beneficial to you and your team to turn KB off. Energy blast AoE's could be used more freely, for example. But I don't think this is a point that really even needs to be sold...
If you're playing with the average PUG, sure someone might complain. But ultimately it is a personal choice that anyone playing a set with KB would have the option to make.
If you find yourself constantly being pestered to turn it off, even if you're in a teaming situation where you feel you could use it effectively, you're probably teaming with the wrong people.
I hear you Bill.
My ice tanks function best with foes around them. So after some careful herding some jerk comes along and uses KB which disperses the gathered foes. I stopped arguing about this long time ago cos those jerks never learn.
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No, it won't. It will only be a "requirement" on stupid teams. You know, the ones led by the people who already don't like it. If they dislike it so much now, they usually don't invite these people anyways, or kick them from the team already. So it's already a "requirement" for those teams.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
That doesn't work, and not for any mechanical reason.
If the option to turn knockback off exists, it will become a "requirement" for teaming to turn it off. |
As for the actual solution, I think that MB's taking this a little too far (and I think he knows that). Basically, KB is as good as the person using it. There will be bad players with KB that can cause team wipes. On the other hand, there will be people that are really good with it that will PREVENT team wipes. I don't think that any reasonable person will argue that point. I know that some people have, but I wouldn't consider them reasonable.
Out of all of the powers listed in MB's original post here, I think there's really only a few of those powers that are truly the ones complained about. Some of them have reasonable complaints to them, and I don't think that just dismissing those arguments is the right way to go about this. Let's go through them, shall we?
1) Dark Blast's Torrent: The cone on this is pretty big, and the KB is, too. The complaints that I've seen about this is more that it can actually reach into a second spawn it not done right, or at the very least, knock enemies into other spawns, which can be dangerous, especially when one considers that it's a cone, and can affect multiple enemies.
2) Kinetic's Repel: On a set designed to focus on being in melee range for a decent amount of it's effects, this power makes little sense.
3) Hand Clap, Thunder Clap, Shockwave, and powers like them (including the PB PBAoE power): These are radial PBAoE or Melee cones that cause significant KB. While they do provide a measure of mitigation, they also cause problems, sometimes for the person using them, and other times for the end (and sometimes both). Basically, an Invuln, WP, Ice, or Shield user will find their damage mitigation lessened by using one of these powers. Since the enemies are no longer in range of debuffs or player buffs that rely on these powers, the character in question becomes easier to take down by whatever mobs weren't hit by it, or those that were when they get back up. The mitigation provided is therefore marginal at best. Even other sets taking these powers see marginal effectiveness when using these powers, though that is more from an offensive standpoint. When you look at how they can affect offensive potential in a game where AoE damage is king, the spawn takes longer to wipe out, lowering effectiveness. Changing these to KonckDOWN would be a net benefit for these instances.
4) Energy Blast, Luminous Blast (and Nova forms for both Khelds): These are the big ones that people complain about, because almost every power in the set has some form of KB. Used well, and they can provide some benefits. Used poorly, and every time the poor player uses a power, there's trouble. But I think even on these sets, people don't mind the single target KB. You KB a target, it's yours. You don't significantly alter the survivability of other characters, even Tankers using auras to help their defenses. You may knock someone else's target back, which might annoy them, but it's not that big of a deal.
The problem is the AoE attacks, and how KB works on them. Let's look at Energy Blast for a second. It's got two AoE attacks, a Targeted AoE, and a Cone. When trying to wipe out a spawn, these two attacks would be used back to back. That should kill ost of the minions, and do a decent amount of damage to anyone else in the spawn. At least, they would if it had any other effect. Right now, since these two powers check their chance of KB on each target, using the cone and then the AoE can cause one of two things to happen (let's assume 10 enemies for ease of math):
a) The cone knocks your target back, and 5 of his buddies, your AoE only hits 6 enemies, and 4 enemies are now in melee range trying to hit you.
b) The cone doesn't knock your target back, but does send 6 of his buddies flying. Your AoE only hits 4 enemies, 2-3 of which are knocked back, with one still trying to hit you in melee, and the others in various stages of coming back to hit you.
So, instead of your AoE hitting all 10 of the enemies, and killing all of the minions, you've left more alive to try to hit you.
Let's take the same scenario, but let's make this guy a Defender, like a Rad/Energy Defender. The Defender puts some toggle debuffs on his target, and then blasts away. We get the same scenario, except that depending on which one happens, half the spawn is no longer affected by the debuffs, in addition to the other problems caused. This is both an offensive and defensive problem.
Are there ways to change this? Well, people who like KB say to just learn to use it. You could either hover above them and KB them all into the ground, effectively creating knockdown. This works pretty well, but requires more time to set up, lowering effective task completion rates (and assumes you can always safely get above the spawn). Or, you could KB them into a wall, which assumes that you have a wall handy, which isn't always the case.
Personally, I like KB for the most part. I think that sets like Energy Blast are fine for the most part, they do just take a bit more learning to use effectively. However, I think that there are cases where KB should be turned into KB, and it would be a benefit to the power and to the users. Solar Flare, Handclap, Thunderclap (for melee classes), could be turned into KD. They'd offer no less mitigation value for these classes, and could sometimes improve mitigation over their current forms.
However, I see no reason why allowing the player to adjust their own KB values to turn them into KD if they choose would suddenly make that a requirement for teaming, nor would it affect those who currently like it the way it is.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I have to agree. Suppressing knockback would be about as "required" on teams as healers are. That is to say, it will be "required" by a select few ******** who insist on micromanaging their team-mates, it may be suggested by a few more forward team-mates, and it will not matter to most big teams these days because any situation that's sufficiently hard probably involves enemies immune to knockback anyway.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
No, it won't. It will only be a "requirement" on stupid teams. You know, the ones led by the people who already don't like it. If they dislike it so much now, they usually don't invite these people anyways, or kick them from the team already. So it's already a "requirement" for those teams.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
3) Hand Clap, Thunder Clap, Shockwave, and powers like them (including the PB PBAoE power): These are radial PBAoE or Melee cones that cause significant KB. While they do provide a measure of mitigation, they also cause problems, sometimes for the person using them, and other times for the end (and sometimes both). Basically, an Invuln, WP, Ice, or Shield user will find their damage mitigation lessened by using one of these powers. Since the enemies are no longer in range of debuffs or player buffs that rely on these powers, the character in question becomes easier to take down by whatever mobs weren't hit by it, or those that were when they get back up. The mitigation provided is therefore marginal at best. Even other sets taking these powers see marginal effectiveness when using these powers, though that is more from an offensive standpoint. When you look at how they can affect offensive potential in a game where AoE damage is king, the spawn takes longer to wipe out, lowering effectiveness. Changing these to KonckDOWN would be a net benefit for these instances.
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Hand Clap is doubly as absurd when compared to its cousin - Fault. Not only is Fault a Targeted AoE which allows you to control knockback direction in cases it does that, but it's also a knockDOWN power. If ever there was a point in my gaming experience where I thought knockdown was superior to knockback, it was when going from Fault to Hand Clap. Fault is an awesome power. I fire it up every chance I get. It comes with precisely no drawbacks, other than cost which can be mitigated (even more now with inherent Stamina) and a whole bag of marvellous benefits. Hand Clap has a similar status effect, but it causes so much scatter it's almost never worth using unless I'm in a VERY dire situation, at which point I'm usually taking off running anyway.
It's amazing how swapping a PBAoE power from knockdown to knockback transformes it from awesome into annoying, and then forces me to use the power in ways that go against its basic design just so that I don't destroy my own Invincibility buffs. Gah!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm not sure why you worded this like you did but, doesn't that 1 statement effectively negate about 2/3rds of the arguments against Knockback?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
... and it will not matter to most big teams these days because any situation that's sufficiently hard probably involves enemies immune to knockback anyway.
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If the opponents on the "hard" stuff can't be knocked back anyway, what's the problem?
It's generalized I know but unless you are fighting more mobs than your aggro manager can handle anyway the only thing that knockback should be causing you to lose is time. That is only because if the KB user is unskilled or overzealous the scatter can prevent you from maximizing your AOEs.
I'm going to preface this with - I'm putting this out because I'm tired. Not "need to go to bed" tired, just tired of the argument. I can use knockback effectively, solo and on teams. There are times it's helpful for survival. But, try to point any of this out, and I'm essentially called a liar, that knockback is nothing but evil, detrimental to teams, and never does anything good. At least, it feels that way after a while.
Like I said. I'm tired of it. So, you anti-knockback folks, here's one for you. I'm no longer arguing against it. I give up.
1. Set all powers that do knockback to do knockback of mag 0.
All these powers can still be slotted for knockback. But without enhancement, they won't. This does NOT affect knockdown (like footstomp, ice slick or earthquake) or repel (Force Bubble, Telekenesis, Hurricane.)
2. Make all KB IOs levelless, doing an absolute value of .4 mag KB.
So zero = no knockback, even of clockwork, one = KD, unless you're fighting something with no KB resist, two or more = KB. No scaling. Works unless the enhancement is red, in which case, the enhancement (of course) does nothing.
Sets have to be handled differently, of course, so split the difference (to .8) between all parts of the set.
KD powers do not stack. Two Ice Slicks won't bump up to knockback.
3. There's no addition of anything else to these powers.
That's right. Nothing to make up for the loss of knockback. Zero. Zip. After all, so I'm told, "well, you can enhance for it, what's your problem?" Since those of us who like/use KB are apparently nonentities... *shrug* Besides, you have a whole other set of enhancements you can use for set bonuses. That'll take the place of KB.
Powers affected:
- Energy blast. Just in general.
- Peacebringer - Nova and Human powers, generally.
- Warshade - Nova powers, several Human form blasts including Gravitic Emanation, Unchain Essence, Quasar
- Superstrength - Hand Clap. (Does a disorient anyway.)
- Electric Manipulation - Thunder Clap (again, does a disorient.) Thunder strike. Havoc Punch.
- Force Field - Repulsion Field.
- Sonic Resonance - Sonic Repulsion. (Don't recall if it does -res off the top f my head or not.)
- Sonic Blast - Shockwave
- Dark Blast - Torrrent
- Mental Manipulation - Telekenetic Thrust
- Munitions Mastery - LRM Rocket
- Mace Mastery - Disruptor Blast, Mace Beam Volley
- Illusion - Phantasm
- Claws - Shockwave
- Kinetic Melee - repulsing Torrent
- Traps - Trip Mine, Time Bomb, Detonator
- Bane - Mace beam, Mace beam Blast, Mace beam Volley
- Ar. Soldier - Frag Grenade (Crab as well.)
- Chance for KB IO (from a stun set, can't think of it right now) becomes Chance for KD. Does not stack with any other KB.
... and others, I just don't feel like going through the rest of the list.
Powers not affected (examples)
- Hurricane (Repel)
- Foot stomp (KD)
- Tremor (KD)
- Ice Slick (KD)
- Liquify (KD)
- Force Bubble (Repel)
"But MB, I like KB!"
Yeah. So do I. Unfortunately... like I said. I'm tired of trying to point out utility. And if the devs ever consider affecting KB, they should do so everywhere, not just a power or two or a set or two. And, like I said, I'm rather tired of being told "Nobody likes KB, nobody can use it, it's unfriendly to teams" and having any counterpoints ignored.
Maybe this'll give an idea of the scope of powers that get affected.
"But that leaves X power doing nothing!"
Yeah. Sucks, doesn't it. Slot for KD, I guess. We get a free slot, after all, with each power pick. And that's one of the answers I get thrown at me, after all. So make it official.
"lolumad"
If you'd actually consider typing this as a reply, learn to type a proper sentence. And no, I'm not. Like I said, I'm tired of the argument. I give up.
"But this will really make some of my favourite characters a lot less fun."
Yeah. Mine too. If the devs ever did something like this, they'd be shelved. Yeah, I'm arguing against what I'd like and my own interest. But this is my white flag. The rifles are being stacked as the band plays, the troops marching off.