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What, you mean a thread started with the express purpose of antagonising the opposition and where opposing viewpoints get trolled? Yes, I can see how that speaks so ill of the opposition.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Although, in fairness, they are. I mean, just look at the thread.
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To his credit, I respect Bill's conduct in his thread, as he's been nothing but polite, constructive and genuine, even given the nature of the thread. I can't say the same for many other proponents of knockback.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Considering the closest corner/wall is about 100 feet away from the computer and Romulus bots don't all spawn at the same time, I'd be really interested at seeing this on a video. Not holding my breath though.|
Tell me that when I'm on my bubble 'fender in an ITF bouncing all the Romulus Phalanx bots together in a heap with force bubble and repulsion field so that AoEs have better access to them. Tell me know knockdown is superior in getting them all together for maximum AOE goodness. |
Additionally, all Romulus bots die when the computer is destroyed, which most PUGs will destroy within a minute or two, making AOEing the bots a complete waste of time in most cases.
I guess the other option would be to run around in circles as to bunch up robots around the computer itself, which would be a great way to stack AOEs (from the bots) on the squishies while also contributing no personal damage. Either the squishies have enough mitigation to survive all that AOE spam and then killing the bots before the computer wouldn't matter, or they don't and they'll die in a split second from the crossfire.
Last but not least, Force Bubble does repel rather than knockback, and its radius is wide enough that you wouldn't be able to hit stuff with Repulsion Field (unless you'd want to melee and scatter everything to the four winds with FB), up until the enemies would be already stuck in a corner, at which point it wouldn't matter if it was knockback or knockdown.
As always, my standard response to anyone who argues knockback is better than knockdown ; if it is so, surely you shouldn't mind other people choosing to turn their own knockback off, as it'd make your own characters relatively better. If you truly believe KB>KD, put your money where your mouth is.
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Wow, you get real salty when someone trashes knockback, don't you.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And 37.1934579345% of all statistics published on internet boards are pulled from...well...we know don't we...
And here is the dreadful lack of imagination at work with knockback. Knockback isn't just about pushing opponents into a wall. It's about POSITIONING opponents while preventing them from attacking you. Yes, a wall or a corner occasionally comes into the picture. But that's not the whole of it. Oh the wit... However shall I keep from busting a gut... Actually all four of them were jokes. Other people's AoEs are NOT ruined if the powers are used intelligently. And if I happen to bounce one or two opponents out of an AoE and still kill them so the hell what? Again, they're not useless. Please save the hyperbole. You're acting like each and every attach that does knockback bounces entire enemy groups out of AoE effects 100% of the time. You know this is bull. Please posit REAL arguments. Your third joke point is only true of idiots who don't understand the role KB plays in the game. The fourth joke point is much the same as the third. Tell me that when I'm on my bubble 'fender in an ITF bouncing all the Romulus Phalanx bots together in a heap with force bubble and repulsion field so that AoEs have better access to them. Tell me know knockdown is superior in getting them all together for maximum AOE goodness. Yes. I'm patient. I can wait for an answer. I refuse to hold my breath that long though. And hopefully I'll still be cognizant in 50-70 years so I can listen to you stumble through an explanation. Basically, if the enemy is spending most of it's time flying through the air and off its feet, you WILL kill it before it kills you. Simply because it won't be ABLE to kill you. The only thing it'll be able to do is die. |
If you're going to insult me, at least post more examples than "Haw haw it's good for romulus bots stoopid knockdown".
That 50% of the time was pulled from teaming experiences. And that was being generous as hell. I've never been on a team where I've said "Gee, we could really use some knockbacks right about now". It's never happened. If you can post examples where it's been beneficial to team success, then please, by all means, go right ahead.
I'll give it one good note in a wholehearted effort to appease you, it's moderately decent for regrouping things when the controller doesn't know how to stop using early immobs.
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Technically speaking, one of those powers doesn't use Knockback at all, it uses Repel. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Tell me that when I'm on my bubble 'fender in an ITF bouncing all the Romulus Phalanx bots together in a heap with force bubble and repulsion field so that AoEs have better access to them.
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Originally Posted by YippeeGo
That 50% of the time was pulled from teaming experiences. And that was being generous as hell. I've never been on a team where I've said "Gee, we could really use some knockbacks right about now". It's never happened. If you can post examples where it's been beneficial to team success, then please, by all means, go right ahead.
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All those times I have knocked mobs into a tar patch, ice slick freezing rain and the like must be my imagination I guess.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I'm okay with this if it works the same way with all the knockdown powers as well!
Why give knockback all the fun of having to slot for KB? Make it work that way for all the knockdown powers.
Footstomp, no longer the power that grants a bit of safety as well, as you'll have to slot a KB IO into it, to get the KD effect.
So yeah, basically unsigned, but if you go for it, lets make it fair for all the power that do any amount of knock around.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
It would be simpler from an end-user perspective just to have a checkbox on the enhancement screen for "Enable Knockback" on each power. If the power has no knockback, the checkbox is ignored.
I'm sure the backend coding would be a nightmare, but that would be my preference.
As far as the OP list, I love knockback on Hurricane, but on footstomp it's totally useless ( and from my experience it usually does knockdown unless the mob is below my level ).
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Did you per chance dream about knocking enemies inside walls, knocking objective-specific enemies off tall places and losing track of them, or scattering enemies prior to an AoE?|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
All those times I have knocked mobs into a tar patch, ice slick freezing rain and the like must be my imagination I guess.
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Because I don't think any of us are saying you CAN'T use knockback constructively (on most powers), but rather that having an option not to would be appreciated, since accidental knockback can be incredibly disruptive. Because this is the same argument people were having about Speed Boost for years, and in a similar fashion run speed fans were browbeating dissenters with unnecessary snark. Yet see what happened.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So... what I get out of this, is if a change is made so that some player controlled power(s) grant(s) KB to (unwanting) teammates' powers in an AoE... they will THEN and only then "give in" and alter the way KB works... right?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[...] Yet see what happened.
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The developers have indicated that KD is more effective than KB. Memphis Bill knows this. He disagrees with it. I understand and relate. I would ask the KB proponents to answer the following question:
How does one use PBAoE 'effectively'?
Because such is not possible unless you effectively use the power as a cone (as in, keeping all the NPCs to one side of you). It's easy for people like Hyperstrike to flame, but it's harder to put up or shut up. I've asked folks in every thread like this to simply explain to me how a PBAoE like say, for example, Solar Flare in the Peacebringer primary could be used effectively and how in goodness name anyone could think it's better than having KD in that same power.
I'm still waiting.
I do not quarrel with the idea that other KB can be used effectively. ST KB is very useful in a number of situations. Cone KB like Shockwave can work too. But please, someone explain to me how you retain the essential character of a PBAoE (i.e. use it with NPCs to all sides of you) while using KB effectively.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Think "roomba". You're using the leading edge of the field to nudge the opponents. It's not easy (and yes, you occasionally fling a couple the wrong way). But it's doable.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Considering the closest corner/wall is about 100 feet away from the computer and Romulus bots don't all spawn at the same time, I'd be really interested at seeing this on a video. Not holding my breath though.
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The reasoning is similar to why some teams pull both the AVs while still whomping on the console.
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| Additionally, all Romulus bots die when the computer is destroyed, which most PUGs will destroy within a minute or two, making AOEing the bots a complete waste of time in most cases. |
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| As always, my standard response to anyone who argues knockback is better than knockdown ; if it is so, surely you shouldn't mind other people choosing to turn their own knockback off, as it'd make your own characters relatively better. If you truly believe KB>KD, put your money where your mouth is. |
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No. I'm normally this salty in real life. Get off my lawn. |
Originally Posted by YippeeGo
Wow, you get real salty when someone trashes knockback, don't you.
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| If you're going to insult me, at least post more examples than "Haw haw it's good for romulus bots stoopid knockdown". |
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| That 50% of the time was pulled from teaming experiences. |
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| And that was being generous as hell. I've never been on a team where I've said "Gee, we could really use some knockbacks right about now". It's never happened. If you can post examples where it's been beneficial to team success, then please, by all means, go right ahead. |
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PICS (and video, and sworn testimonials from your teammates, all the GMs on-duty at the time, server logs and a permission slip from the devs) OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
All those times I have knocked mobs into a tar patch, ice slick freezing rain and the like must be my imagination I guess.
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Right?
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On thing to note about Shockwave and why it works as a power is that the KB magnitude is fairly small. This allows much tighter control of where the NPCs wind up.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
One of these powers is not like the others. A centered on self PBAOE simply has to cause scatter. A well positioned cone (and shockwave is not a melee cone it has 30 feet range) simply doesn't. In fact can be used to group in the way that all LB powers when there is a convenient wall or corner.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Sam, how did you get to more than 32 and a half thousand posts without realizing what those little round yellow things with the vaguely anthropomorphic features mean? Sheesh.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What, you mean a thread started with the express purpose of antagonising the opposition and where opposing viewpoints get trolled? Yes, I can see how that speaks so ill of the opposition.
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Or you'll get the same amount of ******** and moaning, from the exact same people who were doing it before.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
People already have to put up with b****ing and moaning about KB as it is. If you give people a way to cripple these power sets, it will become expected. And the b****ing and moaning simply increases for those who choose to learn to play with the tool instead of demonizing it.
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These are the same people you didn't want to group with before, why would you magically want to group with them now?
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Incorrect. Uses are more situational. But effective use is still quite easily explainable. Such powers are SPECIFICALLY for enemy formation disruption.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Because such is not possible unless you effectively use the power as a cone (as in, keeping all the NPCs to one side of you).
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NO, such disruption is NOT necessarily desirable in teaming situations where they're relying on "tank and spank". That doesn't mean the power is completely useless or of no use elsewhere. And the power CAN be used as a mob "finisher" once various AoEs have whittled them down. Or to disperse the enemies if they're proving more than the group (or the aggro magnet) can reasonably handle.
And yes, at times, if you wish to utilize the power effectively, that means using it in a less than optimal scenario (such as putting all enemies on one side of you and blasting off without a full complement of enemies in the AoE.
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| It's easy for people like Hyperstrike to flame, but it's harder to put up or shut up. |
As for putting up or shutting up. People HAVE put up. The problem is, the other side simply puts it's metaphorical hands over metaphorical ears and metaphorically intones "LALALALALALA! NOT LISTENING!"
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| I'm still waiting. |
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| I do not quarrel with the idea that other KB can be used effectively. ST KB is very useful in a number of situations. Cone KB like Shockwave can work too. But please, someone explain to me how you retain the essential character of a PBAoE (i.e. use it with NPCs to all sides of you) while using KB effectively. |
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As you note, that's often not an effective strategy and it's never a more effective strategy than KD.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Such powers are SPECIFICALLY for enemy formation disruption.
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| NO, such disruption is NOT necessarily desirable in teaming situations where they're relying on "tank and spank". That doesn't mean the power is completely useless or of no use elsewhere. |
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| And yes, at times, if you wish to utilize the power effectively, that means using it in a less than optimal scenario (such as putting all enemies on one side of you and blasting off without a full complement of enemies in the AoE. |
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| As for putting up or shutting up. People HAVE put up. The problem is, the other side simply puts it's metaphorical hands over metaphorical ears and metaphorically intones "LALALALALALA! NOT LISTENING!" |
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| Why is it so alien to you that there are situations where less than maximal utilization of a power is more optimal? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Amazing. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What, you mean a thread started with the express purpose of antagonising the opposition and where opposing viewpoints get trolled?
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I left the thread to go specifically to avoid argument. I state precisely what I'm doing. And somehow I'm starting this for the "express purpose of antagonizing the opposition?"
Really?
So people are reading my mind better than *I* am and finding hidden, dastardly plans and purposes there that even I'm not aware of?
I stated my stance and purpose fairly bluntly and clearly, I thought. Much like I always do. Like I said, I'm tired of arguing over it just to be told that what I like and what I do isn't what I actually like and what I actually do, that I don't actually find useful what I find useful. It seems disappointingly fitting, I suppose, that I'm being accused of the same thing in making this thread by at least one person who should know better.
My stance is very simple. Yes, there's a range of anti-kb sentiment, from "PBAOE" to "You send a single mob flying, I'm kicking you from the team." So just cut short all the arguments. I've been told it's never useful - not with qualifiers, but flat out never. I've been told "Hey, you can just slot for it." So gut it completely, other than as a slotting option.
Like I said, I'm not arguing for it any more. But if it's ever actually done or considered for one set, or even part of one, where it's player controlled, it's not something that should be done halfway. My solution *will end those arguments.* Knockback is gone by default, and slottable by those who want it.
I'll admit to mild curiosity about how much of that slotting and to what degree would be done by the playerbase afterward, but that has nothing to do with the position itself.
No other plans, no other designs, no nefarious schemes, so stop accusing me of having them.
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You have no powers recharged but a PBAOE nuke. You're at middle or lower health. It will take 7 seconds, thanks to stacked slows, for any other power|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Because that statement is self-contradictory. Maximal utilization of a power is always the optimal strategy by definition.
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The enemy boss is down to 100 HP. He has an AOE. That AOE, thanks to a prior attack, will kill the rest of your team and seriously wound you. (The team is stunned/just rezzed/whatever.) They are unable to defend themselves at this point. In 5 seconds, he'll have double the health and more attacks/debuffs placed.
Using the nuke is not maximal utilization of the power - you're taking out a single target at far less than full health.
Your two options are:
Nuke
Brawl and try to use other temp powers, one shot each (since they are also affected by the recharge debuffs.) Brawl, and let's say Gabriel's Hammer and a temp Hand Grenade you have left over, would be enough to overcome the boss's HP and resistance, possibly needing that last sliver from your origin power.
So you're telling me it's a bad idea, since it's not maximal usage of the power, to use the nuke right then - which would kill the boss in one fast shot - but since I WOULD be getting the maximum use of each, that I should go through the string of powers, whittling down the boss and taking more time to do so?
If your answer is "No, use the nuke," for an admittedly extreme version of a situation that does crop up, how is that any different from "Use the corner of a PBAOE knockback to knock multiple enemies back toward the tank/into a patch/away from squishies?" Or, for that matter, using a power that's going to do far more damage than is required to finish off an enemy in general?
(Not using as a pro-KB argument. Solely pointing out that the quoted stance is flawed.)
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No, as I note, SOMETIMES it's not an effective strategy. "Often" is a quantitative judgement I didn't in any way make or imply.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
As you note, that's often not an effective strategy and it's never a more effective strategy than KD.
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As to it "never" being a more effective strategy. What was that about Sith and absolutes?
If you're a toon who's particularly wrecked by melee-range damage, it behooves you to push enemies outside of melee range. Maybe by blowing them in the direction of the team aggro magnet so he can strip them off you.
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| Didn't say it was 'useless'. |
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| Just that it can't be used effectively and that it's certainly not as effective as KD in the same situation. |
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| I'm glad you've acknowledged that. And very few situations in this game are not, "tank and spank". |
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| In the situations that are not tank and spank, I can think of very few where KB is more effective than KD. |
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| By doing so, as I said, you've reduced a PBAoE into a cone. You must squander the essential nature of the power in order to use it effectively. |
There are ALWAYS times when another form of attack will be more effective. So is having enough brains to adapt one type of power to function in a sub-optimal situation REALLY a Bad Thing as you're making it out to be?
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| Because that statement is self-contradictory. Maximal utilization of a power is always the optimal strategy by definition. |
Again, take the PBAoE KB in the example. If you do NOT want to scatter enemies in a 360 degree radius. You're looking to do a bunch of damage and mitigate some of the effects of KB by "bumping" them all in one direction.
Maximal utilization of the power specifies that you're going to plop down in the middle of them and blow them all over.
Optimal strategy for the above described situation means you're going to place yourself to the side of the enemies and nuke off from there instead.
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*Points at Memphis Bill*|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Amazing.
I left the thread to go specifically to avoid argument. I state precisely what I'm doing. And somehow I'm starting this for the "express purpose of antagonizing the opposition?" Really? So people are reading my mind better than *I* am and finding hidden, dastardly plans and purposes there that even I'm not aware of? I stated my stance and purpose fairly bluntly and clearly, I thought. Much like I always do. Like I said, I'm tired of arguing over it just to be told that what I like and what I do isn't what I actually like and what I actually do, that I don't actually find useful what I find useful. It seems disappointingly fitting, I suppose, that I'm being accused of the same thing in making this thread by at least one person who should know better. My stance is very simple. Yes, there's a range of anti-kb sentiment, from "PBAOE" to "You send a single mob flying, I'm kicking you from the team." So just cut short all the arguments. I've been told it's never useful - not with qualifiers, but flat out never. I've been told "Hey, you can just slot for it." So gut it completely, other than as a slotting option. Like I said, I'm not arguing for it any more. But if it's ever actually done or considered for one set, or even part of one, where it's player controlled, it's not something that should be done halfway. My solution *will end those arguments.* Knockback is gone by default, and slottable by those who want it. I'll admit to mild curiosity about how much of that slotting and to what degree would be done by the playerbase afterward, but that has nothing to do with the position itself. No other plans, no other designs, no nefarious schemes, so stop accusing me of having them. |
EEEEEEEEEVILLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sorry, Bill - in most of your other posts, you're consistently level-headed, but I have to call it as I see it. And what I see in this thread is someone claiming he's been harassed by his opponents on this issue until he has no choice but to "surrender" in the most passive-aggressive manner available. You've tried to be reasonable, but those intractable no-tolerance complainers just won't leave you alone!
My characters at Virtueverse
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Have you followed every thread I've been in on them?|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Sorry, Bill - in most of your other posts, you're consistently level-headed, but I have to call it as I see it. And what I see in this thread is someone claiming he's been harassed by his opponents on this issue until he has no choice but to "surrender" in the most passive-aggressive manner available. You've tried to be reasonable, but those intractable no-tolerance complainers just won't leave you alone!
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No matter what I try to explain on it, yes, it boils down to "You're wrong. I don't care how you use it, you're wrong. You can't actually use it helpfully. You can't use it to keep alive. You're wrong." So yes, I *am* done trying to argue the point and tired of it. And the suggestion will do specifically what I said it will.
If you want to read another way, well, that's up to you.
Yeah, no. But it's obvious this isn't going anywhere. You keep thinking whatever you want to think, I'll keep knowing that knockback is the only "positive" in-game effect that has actually killed me for using it.